Emerald

The men you label as “beta male providers” are the “alpha males” of society. The men you label as “alpha males” are probably scrubs. Women will fall for them when they’re inexperienced, but eventually learn that these men are not worth investing in beyond one-night stands... which aren’t much fun anyway from the female perspective. Watch the quality of the male role models you look up to. You might be aspiring to be a dead beat or a scrub without realizing it. You can’t tell a man’s value or level of attractiveness in a woman’s eyes by his lay count.

I’ve never been cheated on. So, given my experiences, I’m inclined to believe there are many men out there who are not totally ruled by their instincts. I do think everyone can make mistakes, male or female. And that’s something that I have understanding for. But if someone’s framework from the get-go is, ‘All men want variety, so just accept that you’ll be cheated on.’ Then that’s just a red flag on those guys and you’ll know not to invest any attention in them. Many of the men on here are very inexperienced anyway and are not representative of the type of man that’s good to get involved with. You can and should expect fidelity. And if the man deviates from that, you’ll know his quality and can move on to a better man.

I’m just saying. The things you say don’t paint you out as a desirable man from the female perspective... forum or no forum. High quality men who are firmly rooted in their masculinity are men who have enough self-discipline to control himself and not let his emotions and instincts rule him. So, a high quality, attractive man is one who might have an instinct for variety but values his relationship and his partner’s feelings enough to prioritize those things over his whims and urges. And that you and some of the others on here frame this type of guy as a fantasy, tells me less about men in general and much more about your value as a romantic partner.

@Peter Miklis @Harlen Kelly @Arcangelo A picture of every woman on the forum in the aftermath of reading your posts...

I guess I shouldn't generalize too much. I suppose it depends on what a woman is looking for. For me, at the current juncture in life, my main motivation towards sex is all about depth, intimacy, and emotional stimulation. I realize that's what makes my libido tick. And I think that's common. But if I were at a different point in life, I might be more open to the excitement of being with a guy I just met. Like if I was more motivated by adventure-seeking than intimacy-seeking.

This is a good point too. I didn't make the connection that the topic starter was the one talking about women virtue signaling. But yeah, men with disdain toward women feel really prickly and emotionally unsafe to open up around because he will be constantly judging. And he also will be very withholding as you'd mentioned as men with a resistance toward the feminine are pretty emotionally distant. So, it's a real libido killer all around.

I'm not virtue signaling with what I said... though I'm not sure if you're referring to my post. What I said, is that it takes women a while to get up to temperature so that the sex is actually a high reward activity. I've had sex with men before when I was just lonely and I felt lukewarm about them, and the sex is "meh" and pretty low-reward (maybe medium reward if the guy is good at what he does). But if I've had time to develop deep feelings for a guy and I have sex with him then it can be mindblowing. And it's that kind of feeling that really motivates women to want to connect with a man. So, I was offering this perspective because men are wired different. Men get immediately up to temperature and so sex is going to be good for them either way. But for women, if a woman sleeps with a man before she's really into him, the sex is kind of blah because it doesn't give her much emotional stimulation. And it also doesn't give you as much of an opportunity to build tension with that man anymore because that bubble has been popped. So, the woman the OP is talking about might be trying to cultivate the right internal state for her to really enjoy herself. And she may be trying to cultivate enough trust and intimacy to have the sex strike certain meanings and emotional chords. But if I've already known the guy a while platonically and my feelings are already up to temperature, I don't really see a reason to wait. I am a strong believer in using the intuition to navigate sex and relationship because it tends to steer me where I need to go. So, it isn't about virtue signaling. In my history, I've had situations where I've waited and I've had situations where I've slept with guys right away the same day I met them. And usually the latter guys are guys I didn't want much else from.

She's probably still going through the process of knowing whether she wants to build something serious with you. I know personally, that if I were in a space of getting to know a guy as a relationship prospect that I think has potential but that those strong feelings haven't yet gotten to boiling point, I'd want to wait for sex until they did... just because the sex is a thousand worlds better when those feelings are present. And that usually takes several months for things to get to the boiling point where the tension is high enough for deep bonding to happen. From a woman's pov, sex really only gets decent if you feel a really strong intimate connection with someone. The physicality by itself is kind of meh without that element. In my experience, the intimacy and limerence really has to set in for truly mind-blowing sex to happen. And if you've started out initially on a sexual/romantic foot, then it will probably take a while for those feelings to get there for her. So, she's probably taking time to build the tension with you so that she knows if she really wants you and so that the sex is actually good for when it happens. That's my guess. Basically, she's a woman. Give her time to let her get up to temperature so that she enjoys the sex somewhat too.

To understand modern Feminist philosophies, I recommend "Yes Means Yes!: Visions of Female Sexual Power and A World Without Rape" by Jessica Valenti. It's a collection of essays. So, it will give you an idea of many different perspectives under the same umbrella of Feminism. When I read it a decade or so ago, it was my jumping off point into Feminism after being fairly anti-Feminist throughout my teen years. I found after a while that the Feminist material didn't quite go as deep as I was looking to go. That's when I found the authors I described above. They give a deeper, more Stage Yellow/Turquoise understanding of Feminism. But if you want to understand Stage Green Feminism (which is arguably even more important than understanding Stage Yellow/Turquoise Feminism at the current juncture), then I recommend looking into "Yes Means Yes!"

This is sexual harassment. You should set a firm boundary. And if he keeps pressuring you, you should cut him off. Lots of women have to do this when straight men don't respect the boundaries. And it's not wise to keep tolerating the behavior. I'd imagine that this isn't something that you're used to having to do as this probably doesn't happen too often where men are trying to go over your sexual boundaries. But you might have to cut this guy off from friendship if he doesn't stop.

Apology accepted

Exactly. It's like 'The drive toward sexual assault is just natural for all men. So, better lower your standards and get used to it because it's integral to men's nature. This is your burden to bear if you're around them.'

Yeah, totally this. This is bothersome because I have spoken about my experiences with sexual assault, and then having it framed as though I was overly-emotional or irrational about it. Or that somehow it happened because I didn't know any better somehow. But these are experiences/traumas that I've done a lot of inner work on and have reflected deeply on. I don't really have any particular emotional reaction when it comes to these things if I'm just talking about them as stories of fact. It's more mind-based when I share in this context. This is not a space where heart-centric stuff can get unpacked. There's not enough emotional safety here to do that. But a lot of intellectual realizations can still be gleaned. So, I initially posted to say simply that these things happened to me. They were traumatic. And similar things happen to lots of women... and some men. And to stress that these are not rare occurrences. And I was hoping to share to give a snapshot for those well-meaning men who have not seen beyond that veil who may still be under the impression that these things are rare occurrences. I was hoping to shock a bit. And I think it probably has shocked some men on here. And I'm sure it shocks them even more to see how hostile and minimizing many of the responses to my posts have been. And as such, it is both a win and a disappointment. And just because this should be said somewhere on here, sexual assault doesn't come from male sexual urges. Most boys/men have sexual urges toward women. But most boys/men do not commit sexual assault. Sexual assault comes from a learned sense of entitlement to women's bodies and a prioritizing of male urges over female well-being. Sexual assault isn't the norm and would be very unwise to normalize it. And this is what perspectives like Integral's perspective does. It normalizes assault and frames it as an integral part of the male instinct, even if he doesn't realize it. Sexual assault comes from boys/men not being held accountable and not being educated about taking personal responsibility for their actions and the consequences of those actions. And they glean from the culture that women are responsible for men's actions. So, if a boy/man sexually assaults a woman, 'it isn't his fault because men have urges and needs and that women should be aware enough to not tempt him'. And if she falls asleep in the proximal area of a guy... then 'it's a shame she wasn't better educated about the nature of boys/men.' or more commonly 'She should've known better." And it's quite audacious to think that someone who's been on the receiving end of sexual assault has never looked into why some men do things like that. This is especially true when my general MO to ponder into things is quite well-known here. But the way I read this is that Integral's reason for posting is not really educational or altruistic, even though he's framed it that way and likewise convinced himself of that. He's posting these things because me sharing my sexual assault stories is bothering him for some reason and making him feel uncomfortable. And he's trying to find a way to make it an "everybody's responsible" situation, because he doesn't like the way he feels when he hears my experiences. He's just convinced himself that his reason is educational. But it's really self-protective. Perhaps, he doesn't want to see his actions or sexuality as problematic. Maybe he has some worries about that whether they are or aren't. And it can help him assuage those worries by saying everything's 50/50. It's kind of how, in bad relationships, if you go to your partner with a grievance to be addressed and they deflect by saying (for example) "Yeah, well I might have been lying to you about having sex with other people... but you always leave your towels on the bathroom floor. So, it's basically even. We're both wrong." It's deflection disguised as education... even disguised to himself, I think.

Thank you. I appreciate you calling them out.

I will not take responsibility for what happens to me when I'm not consenting... especially when I'm not awake. And I was not ignorant and clueless when these things happened to me... unless you mean clueless in the sense that I was asleep. I'm well aware of that men have urges toward women. You'd have to be living under a rock to not be aware of that. Women don't really need this education because we get tons of it from a very young age and it's shouted on every street-corner. We see beyond societal veils that most men never get a peek behind. The male perspective and the proclivities that come with that perspective are very well known. The female perspective is the perspective that most people are hazy about. You should understand well that you assuming the role of the teacher when you'd be much wiser to be the student.

100%

You shouldn't do sexual things to people in their sleep. I think that your mentality on this is the exact reason why I've had that happen on multiple occasions. I'm sure they all had a way of justifying it to themselves too. But an unconscious person cannot give consent. And the urges felt by men to do things to women in their sleep doesn't justify the doing of them. This isn't a "let's try to understand both sides of the story. The molester also had valid reasons for molesting." kind of thing. Men can control their urges. They are not feral beasts. And a sleeping woman should not have to worry about men doing these things to her.

Thank you for the kind words! It was great talking to you today.

You're welcome. I made it vivid because I don't think many men realize the situations that women and girls experience. It's not on most men's radar. So, men who don't do these things tend to side more often with men who do do these things because it's nicer to believe that these kinds of things are rare occurrences that are carried out by some maniac in the bush. But it really is a significant chunk of men. And it's often the guys you least expect. My friend in high school (age 15) was hanging out with this guy Evan that I'd known since 1st grade. And he was always super nice. But while my friend was asleep, Evan tried to put his hand inside her panties... my impression is that she was a bit of heavier sleeper than me, unfortunately. She was really in a bad way about it for a long time with feelings of emptiness and a total breech of trust. Evan was one of her really good friends. So, given how common these kinds of things are, I would guess upwards of 10-20% of men would do things like this. It's just that men who don't do these things, don't often have the chance to have that veil pulled back to get a glimpse of the reality. They don't do it and it doesn't happen to them. So, it's a shock. Much easier to stay in the bubble and deny the reality and victim blame than it is to see beyond the veil to realize that the world is darker than they know.

@Shin Yeah, this is definitely true. You're far more vulnerable to friends and acquaintances than you are to random strangers in the bush. Statistically, women are much more in danger in the home than they are outside the home. Men and women's risk of being attacked on the street by a stranger is very similar (perhaps because women go out by themselves as often as men.) But women's risk of being abused, attacked, raped by a romantic parter, friends, etc. is MUCH higher. I've woken up on three different occasions to men I knew personally trying to do stuff to me in my sleep. Luckily I'm a very light sleeper. Once at 14, I woke up to a man (age 42) drunk with his hand just above my breast. He was my dad's friend that I've known since I was a baby and he was staying at our house. Once at 17, I was hanging out with my then-boyfriend Jeff, my friend Andrew, and this guy Jay (age 23) who was an acquaintance of mine who I'd known for a few years. I lived with Jeff and his family then. So, I'd fallen asleep on the loveseat and was wearing a long skirt... and my legs were draped over one side of the loveseat. Jeff went to go take Andrew home, not thinking anything of leaving me there with Jay. And I had this terrible dream of wearing this nasty yellow coat that was infested with roaches. And I felt a roach crawling up my leg and it disgusted/startled me to the point of waking. And the sensation of the roach on my leg in the dream was (in real life) the sensation of Jay slowly lifting up my skirt. And when I woke up and looked right at him he nonchalantly said, "Oh, Jeff wanted me to wake you up to tell you that he's taking Andrew home." He had it planned. Then, when I was 19, I was at a friends house and her boyfriend, she, and I were sleeping together on a large air mattress. And my friend was in the middle. And the man assumed that I was asleep. I was laying on my back. He had his arm draped over my friend, hovering several inches over my breasts. I could see right away what he was trying to do. I lay there for minutes as he slowly lowered his hand closer and closer to my breasts. Then, right as he made the slightest contact, I turned abruptly onto my side. The next day he said to me something like, "Hey, sorry if I accidentally put my hand on you last night. I was asleep." And then there's just countless times that I've been touched inappropriately or put in uncomfortable situations by friends and acquaintances. High school was really terrible for that. One time, my friend Russell (who's generally a well-meaning person) scared the bejeezus out of me. One thing to note is that Russell is a giant. He's definitely over 6'5" and he's very husky. So, he's a very big guy. He was way back then too. And at age 13 or so I had gone to his grandma's house to hang out with him. And we were in his room, and I think he took a liking to me. And I was sitting in a computer chair. And he grabbed the computer chair by the arms and drug me over in front of him and looked at me with flirty/sexual intent. And he had the chair between his knees. And I felt so afraid and helpless in that moment because I thought, "What is he going to do to me?". And at 13, I'd already dealt with a lot of sexual harassment at school. And he didn't do anything. I think he was just trying to flirt and had no idea how that would be perceived... especially given that I was like 5 foot even at the time. Maybe not even that. Basically, there are too many situations where I've felt sexually uncomfortable to even count or remember all of them. And TONS of more minor sexual harassment from friends and acquaintances... like a death by 1000 papercuts. But you do go numb to it... until the rage rises. Back then, when I used to smoke weed, I'd get all these terrible feelings and get really paranoid about sexual things. And this sense of disgust and rage would come up. One time I even got into this delusional space where I felt like a demon from hell was going to come into my room and rape me. I really went there in my mind to where that felt real, because it was a symbol for how the guys in my life often made me feel. The weed just brought all that stuff up to the surface that I was essentially numb to otherwise. I was really anti-feminist at the time, and basically coped with these experiences through pretending that women get treated equally to men. I'd get really ticked off if anyone suggested that women were getting the shittier end of the stick in any way. So, I had a lot of repression back then about these topics.

Your post definitely reflects the potential that I see within marriage. When you enter into a marriage, you have the opportunity to learn and grown through the embodiment of the sacred marriage archetype. And this takes a lot of work and honesty and communication and boundary setting. And I think, because of our lack of awareness of what intimacy means, most marriages are probably terrible. I'm so surprised that the divorce rate is only at 50%. I think the lion's share of the 50% is coming from social pressure and keeping a stiff upper lip. But in a marriage that truly embodies the sacred marriage, there is a real path to spiritual and non-spiritual growth.

I didn’t say that the community was “legitimate” or had much merit. I still don’t think it’s a high quality community. That’s what you’re reading into what I posted. I still wouldn’t be interested in joining the discussions, as places like this (including Red Pill) tend to turn into a circle jerk where people are tonguing their own wounds together but not doing any actual healing. I just said that it was different than I first expected based on what the OP said. I expected it to be more shallow overall because I’ve seen a lot of shallow posts/memes about dating woes. But there were many legitimate grievances sprinkled through the posts that I can tell the women posting have firsthand experience with. So, for that reason, I didn’t want to blanket-delegitimize everyone in there. So, I wanted to correct my first assumption as there were certainly things posted on there that can be noticed as a pattern in society.

I wasn't referring to that one in particular when I said there were some that had merit. I was focused towards other posts on there which were more thought out than I expected on first glance. I expected a bunch of sentimental "I'm a queen and I need a king" stuff. Now, that post is a bit mean. That said, there are still some kernels of truth in it. There are many men who are like that. And I think it is a generational thing. But of course, I wouldn't use it as a blanket statement about men. And I wouldn't call names. There just are a lot of men who behave that way. So, it's not really surprising that some women would have experiences with these men and be upset and make such a statement.

Many of these are accurate. It doesn't seem as low quality as the OP seemed to suggest. I was under the impression that it was women who post stuff to cope with relationship problems with memes like...

It's a bit different than that. They won't be able to drop their hate for the opposite gender until the roots of it are dealt with, which is low self-esteem and self-hatred. They will also need to integrate their inner opposites (Anima or Animus). Without the inner opposite integrated, neediness for relationship to the opposite gender will arise. And it will be like halves desperately seeking their half, instead of being whole within themselves. But the self-hatred has to be addressed first.