Emerald

No worries. That's been a long time ago that this kind of treatment was normalized. Right now, if someone tried any of the inappropriate stuff that used to be normalized, I'd be aware that there was a problem. And people have gotten more conscious over the past 15 years. So, other people would probably be more primed to call out the inappropriate behavior as opposed to going into slut shaming mode where the onus of responsibility is put on the recipient of the behavior.

I used to have a really strong reaction when I'd think about rape. And the big thing that struck me is the disregard of the person's humanity, and just using them like an empty vessel for pleasure. And the pleasure for the rapist is momentary, while it sticks with the victim for their whole life. It just struck me as the biggest disregard for human life. It still does now, but I don't have as strong of a reaction or get intrusive thoughts about it. Looking back, I realize the strong reaction I had was because my sexual boundaries were constantly being breeched in other more subtle ways that didn't seem serious to me at the time because it was totally normalized behavior that was happening to almost every girl I knew. So, I wonder if some version of that is happening to you... even if it isn't sexual boundaries that are being breeched. When I was a teenager and in my early 20s, it was very common that I was treated in objectifying ways with lots of inappropriate and unwanted touching and language directed towards me. And there was just lots of slut shaming combined with being pressured by male peers and older adults to engage with them sexually. It was a very confusing time with many mixed messages because there was peer pressure to be sexual but then social punishment for being sexual at the same time. And I didn't see any of it as particularly traumatic because it was just "normal". And I didn't really think it was impacting me because that was just the way things were. But I used to smoke weed, and this impacted my ability to swallow all of this down. And often when I would smoke, I'd experience triggers and get all this really strong anger and disturbed panicky feelings coming up. And I would often get paranoid. Like once I was at a party in college when I was 19, and I was smoking weed. And one of the guys who lived at the house was a hyper-conservative type of guy. And he was already coming across in a way that I found abrasive because he was pretty overtly racist and sexist. Then when I was high, he made a joke with his roommate (who I did know) that he got in trouble for sodomy. And this created this huge trigger for me as I couldn't tell he was joking because of the weed. And I already didn't trust the guy. And I locked myself in the bathroom to hide myself away from everyone at the party, and I had a mini panic attack because I was having all these intrusive thoughts about the guy forcing himself on someone and starting to see him as a soul less vampire of the person. There was also a situation when I was 17 when I was high. And I had gone to a 3 day, 2 night rock festival. And there was a lot of open sexual expression there. And I consciously had no issue with it. Then, there was this woman (who was probably in her mid-20s) who had a bullhorn. And as women would walk by, she'd shout at them and try to get them to flash. And I was at the concert with my boyfriend and two of my guy friends. And we walked past this woman, and she starts shouting at me through the bullhorn to try to convince me to flash my breasts. And I got so upset and all these thoughts started racing. And I can't remember if I spoke this stream of consciousness out loud or if it was just in my mind. But this trigger hit me because I had just smoked some weed, and I went into this panic and anger mode. And even though I was against Feminism at the time because I thought it was out-dated and it was uncool to be a Feminist, I'd go into this really intensely angry Feminist-ish screed speaking in very academic terms about how fucked up what she's doing is. But I don't remember if that was in my head or if I actually started blessing her out. But in retrospect, I think in these moments, it was a part of me that already felt unsafe, objectified, and used in subtler way on a consistent base to where it was like a death of 1000 paper cuts. So, it lead me to wonder if your strong feelings that come up have to do with some sense of being used or objectified and having your boundaries breeched... either sexually or non-sexually.

That makes a lot of sense. The body has many ways of redirecting us from what is wrong for us. And there's probably some feelings of dissonance there because of there being lots of societal expectations that a guy will always be open and ready for sex with a physically attractive woman. And there's some pretty brutal shamey pop cultural messaging that gets projected onto situations where a guy doesn't get hard, that most women don't even subscribe to.

There's one story that I'd heard that really resonated with me regarding this question. I think it was a story that involved Plato and his student Aristotle.... of perhaps it was Plato and another student. And Plato said to the student that, sometime over the coming year, he would be sending a teacher with an important teaching. And the teacher that was carrying this important teaching from Plato could be anyone... a child, a woman, a man, a beggar on the street, etc. And so, Plato's student started treating everyone as the secret teacher that Plato was sending because he didn't know who it was going to be. And at the end of the year, Plato approached this student. And the student expected Plato to quiz him about what he learned from the secret teacher. But Plato just revealed to him that no secret teacher had been sent, but rather he was teaching the student that you can learn from anyone and everyone as all are possessing of their own perspective and wisdom.

You keep acting like I'm prying into your boundaries. But I'm not evenly remotely curious about what you have going on in your life. I just happen to suspect that you're getting called creepy on the regular because of your fixation on this topic. Either that, or you have some hypothetical situation (that'll never happen) playing out in your mind where you're just existing and being normal and a bunch of bat-shit crazy women come out of the wood work to randomly besmirch your reputation and call you creepy. I see no other explanations that fit. What else is there to assume? But you're the one that's determining 'appropriate social behavior' by trying to police others uses of the word creepy. And that's fine if you don't want to spend time around people who use the word creepy. But because 99.99% of people use that word to communicate something practical, you're going to be a bit lonely. Like, if some guy on the street starts being sexually inappropriate towards you... you're probably not going to describe it to a friend you're seeking help from as "That guy's being a narcissist." Your friend won't really understand the jist of what you're saying. They'd be like "He was being selfish?" Instead, you would say "That guy over there is being a creep/pervert/etc.." And then, the intended meaning would shine through.

I'm not very focused on hypocrisy in the dynamic with Leo's post. I wasn't challenging him on moral grounds at all nor was I attempting to paint him as a hypocrite. I was just challenging the rigor of his perspectives through an intellectual lens to see if I could catch him out in an intellectual inconsistency. But because he recognizes and accepts his hypocrisy, he passed the consistency challenge. With the dynamic I was talking to Princess Arabia about, I was talking about a particular type of hypocrisy and where it comes from. But even then, it was for the purpose of talking about where that specific kind of hypocrisy comes from. I only care about ethics/morality/hypocrisy in situations where I feel a sense of danger or civic duty. Otherwise, it's just more human stuff.

I didn't engage with Leo's response because I agree with what he said. We all engage in hypocritical behaviors like that. But my questioning him wasn't about "Are you avoiding engaging in hypocritical behavior?" as this is something that everyone does. My questioning him was about inconsistencies in his intellectual framework for discernment, as I know that having consistencies in his perspectives is important to him... and it's usually something that he's good at and well thought through with. And I thought I'd caught him in an intellectual inconsistency. So, I was challenging his level of intellectual consistency... and not his behaviors from a moralistic lens. But because his perspective was consistent and reconciled, I didn't challenge him further. He admitted to the hypocrisy and how we all engage in hypocritical behavior, so that is what made his perspective consistent.

It could be because there is a sense of detachment because of it being on-screen, which flattens the person to just specific angles. And people become an easier projection screen when they're flattened out that way. And it's not a real-life human interaction. So, it's easier to project things onto characters in movies compared to real people... whether those movies are porn movies or regular movies.

You're projecting a lot of stuff into my responses that just aren't there. I'm not shaming anyone. My post isn't even really about porn and people's opinions on it... it's about holding consistent perspectives and why people sometimes hold inconsistent perspectives. And I didn't ignore Leo's response. I responded to Leo by saying "As long as you're being consistent", and I meant that. And I don't have strong feelings about porn in either direction. If people want to watch it or don't, that's not a problem in my eyes. And I don't have a problem with people being pro-porn or anti-porn. And of course the porn industry has frequent issues with exploitation as do many other industries, and yet we still consume. I don't disagree with him about that. And I'm also not judging that tendency. I don't consume animal products, but I do sometimes watch porn, I do have a phone/computer, I do pay taxes to pay for the bombing of children, and I do contribute to climate change. It's just if someone makes a claim like "people who make porn is unconscious", it would be inconsistent to then believe that watching porn isn't also unconscious. And as long as there is consistency in those perspectives, I don't take issue with someone holding that perspective. I was just challenging Leo a bit to see if he's being consistent. And I wasn't talking about Leo in my later response to Princess Arabia. That's why I was talking in more general terms and referred to the person as "the judger". There is a pattern with people who judge porn stars, while consuming porn. And this tends to come generally from sexual shame that gets projected onto the porn stars. I know this because I used to do this when I was in my late teens. But I see others still doing this now. And to clarify, I don't think Leo is engaging in that dynamic as he is operating from an entirely different paradigm. But when was it that I said "judging things is wrong and unspiritual"? I'm going to need a quote on that one because it feels like you're making an assumption about me and my perspective. I don't think judging is wrong and unspiritual... and I don't care that much about what is wrong or unspiritual. There is nothing that's wrong, and there is nothing that's unspiritual. I think it's important to drop judgments for one's own sake as any judgment will cause us to repress parts of ourselves. But judgment itself is just a way to cope with things. And if judgments arise for me or anyone else, they are an asset that can be used to explore the psyche more deeply. However, discernment is very important. And I was challenging Leo a bit to make sure he's being discerning enough to avoid hypocrisy... and he was. So, I didn't press him on it further.

Don't worry. I'm not trying to pry into your personal life. You just seem to take the existence of the word 'creepy' as a personal insult to the point where you want to abolish the word altogether. But good luck trying to censor and change other people's expressions that you believe are inappropriate. I just don't think the word creepy is going away anytime soon. There are PLENTY of behaviors (regardless of the gender of who's doing the behavior) that fit that label. And that word is the most accurate label to describe those specific types of behaviors.

Yeah, that type of hypocrisy is very common. I think it tends to come from general shame-based attitudes towards sex. And then, there's some kind of cognitive dissonance that helps the judger cleanse themselves of their shame around the enjoyment of porn by projecting those shame-based feelings onto the porn stars, which turns into disgust and contempt.

As long as you're being consistent and believe that both the production and consumption is varying degrees of unconscious. It happens far too often that people will be hypocritical and hate on porn stars... while simultaneously being avid consumers of porn.

If it wasn't personal, then why are you so hung up on these topics? And I did tell my friend what to do instead and how approaching consecutively all over campus the way he was would be interpreted. And he was very thankful for my social advice. Though I don't directly take credit for his success story. It was mostly him learning the hard way through lots of social disapproval that his actions were going over an understood social boundary and that he was being perceived as creepy. So, it was being perceived as creepy by lots of male and female peers that really made him realize he had go back to the drawing board with his tactics for meeting women. And he was eventually successful. And he probably wouldn't have been had people beat around the bush and been too politically correct to confront him and call out the behavior he was doing as creepy. He really does struggle with social cues, and he can get misunderstood as genuinely creepy/dangerous, when in reality he's really just very awkward and unaware of how social interactions are meant to work. (And he's definitely not a narcissist) Like one time, a few years after we'd all graduated from college, I had invited him and a few of our friends (who were in town visiting) over to my house to play board games. And he was driving in from a few towns over. And we were waiting for him for a while. He had just come up to the porch and stood there for a few minutes, but didn't think to knock or text, so we didn't know he was there. And after a few minutes, he got back in his car and drove away. And after waiting a while for him to show up, I called him up about 15 minutes later, and he said that he was afraid that he'd remained on the porch too long and that the neighbors would think he was 'casing' my house. Also, it's wise to care about how you come across, if you don't want people to think you're creepy.

If you're making this post again because women are frequently calling you creepy, you may want to genuinely consider why that is. Women usually don't call guys creepy for no reason. It's usually because we intuitively pick up on strange behavior that could indicate either a lack of social awareness (and potential boundary breeches that come with that lack of awareness) or a more direct threat. Like, when I was in college, there was a guy who was approaching every single girl (including me) that he'd come across during the first week of school. And he quickly earned himself a reputation as a creepy guy among guys and girls alike. And we were weirded out by him because he wasn't aware that he was stepping over all sorts of social boundaries. And I ended up running into him at another place later on that week, and he was looking very troubled. And he told me that a bunch of people sternly confronted him about his behavior, and that he didn't realize that was going to be an issue. He just thought that's what he was supposed to do in order to get a girlfriend. And I befriended him and explained to him how that kind of behavior can come across. And he generally had a hard time reading social cues. Like one time, he and I and a few other people were hanging out on campus. And these random people that he didn't know very well were sharing a pizza. And he asked them for a piece of their pizza, and they reluctantly gave him a piece. But he didn't sense that it wasn't appropriate behavior to ask random acquaintances for a piece of their pizza. He is an example of someone who is mostly harmless (though not entirely harmless because misreading social cues and being unaware of making someone feel uncomfortable that way can cause harm, even if not intentional). But people telling him that his behavior was creepy (though painful) was a real teaching moment for him. He didn't do that again. And later on that year, he found himself a girlfriend. And that may not have happened had he not learned that it's not the right way to go about things to approach every random girl on campus... one after the other. So, if women are frequently calling you creepy, you may want to assess your behavior to see if you're not traversing social boundaries or unintentionally coming across in a threatening way

Don't you watch porn? If creating and selling porn is low conscious in your view, wouldn't watching porn also be low conscious behavior by the same metric? Perhaps you're consistent and also believe that watching porn is low conscious behavior, even though you engage in it yourself. But if not, this seems a bit inconsistent to me.

I tend to just leave people to believe what they already believe, as I already have connections with lots of people who are on the same wavelength as me that I can have these conversations with. And prior to having that, any desire that I had to try to get people to pick up on the realities that I do was because of more self-focused reasons... like wanting to have deeper conversations or wanting to not feel alone in my perspective. So, my question is... why do you want them to understand that Masculine and Feminine are more than just social constructs? But I can pick up these 'energies' all the time now... just in subtler ways compared to when I've been under the influence of Ayahuasca. Once you recognize it in these sensitive states, you can sense it playing out in all things. And it doesn't even have a lot to do with human gender... or humanity at all. Without the direct experience (which someone could pick up on without psychedelics), it's really just a matter of encouraging people to tune into subtle vibes. And with enough clarity and focus, there could be a realization of Masculine/Feminine vibes.

Men and women (all people really) are like 90% similar to each other. Take the two most different human beings you can think of, and they're still 90% similar. That said, there are marked differences with regard to some things regarding gender... though of course there are many exceptions to the rule. Also, the Masculine and Feminine principle (which don't have much to do with human gender) are definitely archetypally and energetically real and palpable if you tune your senses to them. This is something that I realized at age 20, in my first Ayahuasca experience at a time where I 100% adamantly believed that everything of the Masculine and Feminine were purely socially constructed. And I was out in my friend's back yard at night, and all the plants were growing around me. And I felt an intelligence in the plants and in the darkness of the night that I could only describe as Feminine... despite having the notion that all things Masculine and Feminine are social constructs.

You're projecting too much onto interactions with women and reading too much into facial expressions that probably don't mean what you're making them mean. Just interact and be a normal guy. Most women are attracted to normal guys. And you don't have to compete with every single guy on the planet. If a woman really likes you, she will like you in particular.

First off, there's no rocket science about when to initiate a conversation with a woman. If you happen to be in a social setting, you can be social and speak to women every time. Don't overthink it. Just be social. But, if a guy is famous or has some kind of clout, there will be a sizable minority of women who will chase these guys. It's like Elvis Presley. Of course he's going to have tons of women throwing themselves at him. But if he weren't famous, Elvis Presley would just be another guy at the grocery store. So, these women aren't really interested in these guys. It's all about trying to get closer to fame and the meanings they associate with his public persona. And these women just see these guys as a means to having higher status. And it speaks to these women's priorities. But most women don't do that and aren't interested in reaching out to random guys for clout. Most women become organically attracted to men in their proximity that they get on well with. But when women are looking at men as a laundry list of objective qualities, they're not in the right mode to be able to get into a satisfying relationship anyways. It's only when a woman falls in love with the gestalt of a man as more than the sum of his parts that there won't be a feeling of settling. And any woman who is sliding into famous men's DMs just aren't in that whole person mode of attraction.

I will encourage my son in several years when he's in middle school to go talk to girls and socialize with them... and to be generally social with his peers. As long as that happens, I'm sure he'll have plenty of opportunities to get girlfriends if he wants a girlfriend. I'm confident because I have been a teenage girl before, and teenage girls typically develop crushes on their male peers that they spend time with often. But there is no need to wait for girls to mature out of liking bad boys, because it's not that inexperienced girls ALWAYS go for bad boys. I would also often get crushes on unassuming nerdy boys. I have always been nerdy myself. So, it was common for me to get crushes on these types of guys. The difficulty there was that both I and they were too shy to make moves. Like, there was one boy named James that I liked in the 9th grade who was really quiet and shy. And I was afraid of letting my feelings show because I couldn't tell if he liked me or not. I think back now and believe that he might have liked me and that if I were just braver, it could have led to some nice experiences. I was just afraid of disgusting him or creeping him out. Then, when I was 16, the guy that I liked before I got with my first boyfriend was this quiet nerdy guy in my math class. And we were always playful and flirty with each other and making fun of each other. And I eventually confessed my feelings to him and he expressed that they were reciprocated. That was in November, and nothing ever advanced from it. And we eventually went into Christmas Break and our classes changed and we lost touch with one another. And in February, I had just started going out with my first boyfriend a few days earlier, after not hearing anything from this boy for 2-3 months (which is a long time in teenager years). And the boy unexpectedly came into my Spanish class brought me in a big bouquet of flowers for Valentines Day. And I was really surprised and felt so bad because I thought he'd lost interest and that things moved on as they often do at that age. So, it's not the young naive girls/women prefer bad boys... or only go for bad boys. But attraction to Bad Boys just CAN happen because of the naïveté about the world, which means that you don't have the yucky disgust feelings associated with them yet. The disgust firewall isn't as strong, and you won't have frame of reference to think of how a given guy is going to impact the quality of your life. I remember, at the age of 16 (Thus Summer prior to liking the nerdy boy who gave me flowers and getting together with my first boyfriend), being attracted to my 19 year old next-door neighbor because he listened to rock music and smoked weed and swore like a sailor. And he was drunk all the time and super dumb. He couldn't remember what Hilary Clinton's name was and kept calling her Hilary Bush. And I remember being really impressed by him and enamored because I had all these romanticized pop cultural cool images of that lifestyle in my head. And he and I spent a few nights together where we were making out. But because I was a virgin and wasn't open to having sex with him, he totally ghosted me. And it broke my heart for a few weeks, and I got over it. Then, a few months later, he had invited me and my step sisters over to his place. And he had gotten some chocolate Kahlua. Anyone who knows me knows that I love chocolate. And he had mentioned to me that he got it specifically for me because he knew I liked chocolate. And he kept pressuring me like crazy the whole time we were over there to drink (even after I said I wasn't in the mood for it)... for obvious reasons. And it was just seeing him in this light that brought up all these feelings of disgust... and I recognized his lameness that was totally unconscious to me several months before. And it's usually little formative moments like this that builds up the disgust and raises the bar of standards as a woman experiences more and more. And anyone who romanticizes bad boys either lacks experience... or they lack self-esteem... or both. Luckily, you don't need to be that to have women who are interested in you. This is ESPECIALLY true if you're in your 20s+ and dating women in their 20s+

Certainly, there are men that sleep with hundred of women out there... because they are out there approaching thousands of women. And most of those guys aren't even very attractive. Like, if you look at the RSD coach guys who pick up women all the time, they're all pretty average guys with nothing too special about them. But it's not like the women those guys sleep with become a permanent part of of their harem and are off limits to everyone else. These guys are not Ghengis Kahn with an entourage of concubines that are loyal only to them. And shy of there being a celebrity, there are aren't any guys who simply have women lined up down the street wanting to be with them... that is unless they're deliberately playing those women and taking steps to evoke emotions in these women. Also, the VAST majority of women want a man to themselves and want an exclusive monogamous relationship. Very VERY few women are interested in being side bitch #4 to square-jawed Jimmy down the street. So, things are as even as they have every been before. Do yourself a favor. Look at the world without these fear-based narratives clouding what you see. How often do you see attractive men have multiple girlfriends and wives who are loyal only to them? If you're honest, you'll recognize that that's very rare. Most people are monogamous. So, you don't have to worry about the "top" guys stealing away all the women because that just isn't happening in large enough numbers to impact your dating pool.

If a woman is more drawn to destructive men over a healthy men, this is just an indicator that she has some self-esteem issues or that she is young and/or naive and doesn't know how the world works yet... or some combination of the two. The things that make a man generally attractive in the eyes of a healthy woman (which tend to coincide with traits that make a man a good father, protector, and provider) don't have anything to do with being destructive and chaotic. And in the eyes of most women, there is nothing more attractive than a warm-hearted, stable, trustworthy man who knows who he is. And even women who happen to fall for a fuck boy or bad boy, immediately start thinking about how they can change him and tame him into being the warm-hearted, stable, trustworthy, fatherly man... which of course is a fool's errand. Sometimes very young women who haven't experienced much of the world can romanticize the "bad boy" archetype. Like, when I was a teenager, I was drawn to guys who were a bit rough around the edges. My first boyfriend who I was with for 4 years was like that. And his life was a mess and very likely still is. And past the age of 20, I would never have given such a guy the time of day. So the reality is that, once a woman matures past the age of 22 or 23, those "bad boy" types will likely become very unattractive to her because that lifestyle is stressful, uninteresting, and antithetical to settling down and preparing for a family... which is what women are wired to find attractive even if they aren't interested in starting a family. Here's what "bad boys" seem like in the eyes of most women...

Why does somebody have to 'lose in this system'? The world is 50/50 male and female. And roughly the same percentage of men and women are straight. And the majority of women are monogamous and prefer monogamous relationships. To me, this idea that someone has to lose doesn't make sense given the mathematics of the situation. This zero sum thinking just seems like a limiting belief to keep yourself in a state of resignation to avoid taking risks and potentially being hurt.

Yes, I agree. It's definitely their own self-fulfilling prophecy. There are zero qualities that a person could possess that would prevent them from striking a match. And I have my doubts that the only 33% of men reproducing thing is correct as a percentage. And to the extent that men have been prevented from reproducing in the past in a disproportionate way to women, it has come about from social structures that incentivize parents to marry their daughters off into polygynous marriages with wealthy, powerful men. Right now, however, most women are in control of their choices in partner... and prefer monogamous couplings and aren't as frequently forced into polygynous marriages. And I only bring up anecdotes because that's where I'm from and where I witnessed lots of unattractive men who had girlfriends, wives, and a fulfilling social life. But there's nothing too special or different about how the culture in my hometown works compared to other places in the country in regards to how relationships form. That's just the time period in my life where I was the most social and witnessed people of a variety of different levels of attractiveness getting on just fine with the opposite sex. And the main difference between them and the guys on this forum who are certain that they're not "eligible for reproducing" is that they were socializing a lot and interacting with female peers in the process.

All men are "eligible for reproduction". I know this because I've seen very unattractive guys have female partners. Just look around at the world, and you will see this. Any man who believes that no woman will be attracted to him is just misinterpreting his lack of success with women as an indicator of universal unattractiveness... when it actuality, it's other issues that keep them from interacting women women normally... or interacting with women period.