Emerald

Are you saying that men generally don’t feel pressure to match up to a Masculine ideal? Are you claiming that men as a collective actually feel more pressured to be Feminine than they are pressured to be Masculine?

Yes, this dynamic is a big part of what I mean.

Shame is about feeling fundamentally unworthy of existence. And the only antidote to shame is unconditional self-love. Any attempt to fix one’s self will always backfire and produce more shame because shame is about feeling invalid on the level of being. And running from shame is not a sustainable motivation strategy.

There are some solid points within this around the ideal Feminine image that tackle this topic from a different angle. Men’s shame in their Feminine side tends to come through the lens of Anima issues. There are 4 phases to Anima development… The Eve phase The Helen phase The Mary phase The Sophia phase In the Eve phase, men are the least integrated with their Anima (the Feminine side) and have a strong aversion to the Feminine and see women as both incapable and untrustworthy. In the Helen phase, men are somewhat more integrated with their Anima than in the Eve phase but still have an aversion to the Feminine and see women as capable but untrustworthy. In the Mary phase, it is named for the Virgin Mary. And the Feminine is idealized and viewed as pure goodness without any capacity for wickedness…. And women are seen as the purer sex. In the Sophia phase, this reflects a total dropping of shame regarding the Feminine side and a full integration of Anima. And the Feminine is recognized as multifaceted and women are seen as just human (without the projection of the Anima overlaying them) and are seen as free agents capable of both good and evil. What you describe here is what happens when a man in the Mary phase is faced with the reality of women being capable of ‘evil’. And they can either use this to transcend to the Sophia phase of slip back into the Helen phase.

It’s really obvious that most men feel lots of anxiety and pressure around approaching women. Just look around this forum and you’ll see clear evidence. Some of that is from the shame dynamic that I mentioned. Some of that is because rejection is difficult at any rate.

This is a dynamic that tends to create the shame. Many people expect men not to be human and vulnerable and to always be stoic and strong. And men often internalize this expectation from the time they are boys. And because the expectation isn’t realistic, it produces shame in having normal human emotions.

I see lots of people disagreeing pretty strongly with me on here. Perhaps it’s that many don’t like the idea of someone who is not a man speaking about men’s problems. I might also feel a bit triggered also if a man started talking about women’s issues. So, I get that. But I’m not generating this idea from nowhere. I know what shame looks like because I’ve been working 1-on-1 with people for over half a decade. And shame has been one of my core wounds as well. And it’s obvious once you know what it looks like. And men (in the broad strokes and in varying degrees) have a collective shame problem that presents itself in the form of Anima issues. And until the men who are the most afflicted with this pattern realize this, they’ll continue to get sucked into these groups and they’ll continue to have issues with things like connection.

The Shadow is called the Shadow specifically because it deals with what’s unconscious. You said yourself in a post a while back that you don’t trust women who are attracted to you. Kind of like how Mark Twain said, “I wouldn’t belong to any club that would have me.” I have to be honest that I see shame as one of the biggest driving factors of why you are focused towards life in the way that you do in general. Most people with a strong self-improvement focus are motivated significantly by shame as they cannot accept themselves as they are and feel they need to fix/improve themselves to become someone else.

You missed the essence entirely because it subtracted the compassion and understanding of root causes.

It's unwise to minimize men's pain like that.

It's observable

This 'men trying to match up to a Masculine ideal' dynamic is very obvious even at a cursory glance.

Thank you! I don't have specific examples of men in mind. But a good litmus test is how okay he is with just being himself without too much fixation upon being Masculine. And just allowing whatever happens to be there to be there. And men who feel secure in themselves even in being kind, warm, tender, etc.

Sexual needs are also intricately woven into this dynamic. But the fundamental toxicity of these groups doesn't foundationally come from unmet sexual needs... it comes foundationally from shame. And then that shame translates into more difficulties finding a sexual partner which aggravates and amplifies the whole shame dynamic. There's also a dynamic where people are socializing less, which leads to more of a capacity to project onto the opposite sex. So, that must also be accounted for as an external factor. But if you go into any Manosphere space... they aren't all gravitating there because they lack sex. (In fact, some men who hold this shame are having quite a lot of sex.) They are all gravitating there because they are all dealing with the same shame dynamic. Edit: Also an important thing to keep in mind is that if it were just about lacking sex, then pickup would fix the dynamic. But it doesn't fix it because being unsuccessful with women is a symptom and not a root cause. And most men still externalize their sense of validity onto women even if they get good with getting sex. This is why pick-up communities can be just as toxic as any other manosphere space as it is usually men who feel shame gravitating together.

I'll answer your questions one by one... The issue is the ideal itself. Since no person can match an ideal, it sets the stage for shame. But healthy male (and female) role models are important as long as they are not idealized. When there is an ideal for reality to match up to people will always feel shame because no one is ideal. But the more extreme that ideal is, the more difficult it is to match up to. So, a good baby step in the right direction is to hold a more ordinary ideal image that's within striking range. And that ideal would have to be a more integrated ideal that includes things that are pro-social like warmth and emotional intelligence. So, there are healthier and unhealthier ideals. But overall, any ideal that's held onto tightly will produce shame. There is no problem with having sex-oriented goals like getting laid. And male sexuality isn't the problem. It's only when you cross-multiply sexuality with shame that problems arise and those problems tend to take on the forms I mentioned in the post above with men. So, when guys are in this shame dynamic, things like sex, dating, relationships with women, etc. all get sucked into that internal shame dynamic and creates a feeling of need for female validation that wouldn't be there anywhere near as strongly if the shame wasn't there. There is a normal level of seeking validation from others that we all have, so it wouldn't go away in its entirety. But this shame dynamic turns sex with women into a strategy to validate one's existential worth by proving to themselves they're worthy of female validation. And from there it creates a ton of unhealthy sexual dynamics that are a reflection of shame. And it causes sex to be more of an obsession because it feel like a pathway to get rid of the shame and feel existentially valid (even though sex cannot actually do this). One thing that a lot men don't tend to realize is that women are attracted to regular guys. And they don't need to fit the Masculine ideal to have women take interest in them. And that attraction comes mostly from human to human connection in a social setting where men and women are just being ordinary people together. When a man is dealing with shame (especially around a perceived failure to fit the Masculine ideal), he will have issues having casual nonchalant ordinary conversations with women because the stakes feel too high because he will view her as an arbiter of how well he fits the Masculine ideal and therefore as an arbiter of his worth. When a man is dealing with this shame dynamic, he becomes like an open wound and women he's attracted to are like a big squirt bottle of lemon juice. The lemon juice wouldn't bother a man who's not dealing with shame too much and feels more secure in himself as he would have fewer open wounds. But a man who is deeply afflicted by shame in this way won't be able to relax in this dynamic because the stakes feel too high. And he will often let off signals that can scare women off. So, it's not as to say that he will become more attractive by dropping shame as it's not about adding attractiveness to himself. It's that it will take away the subtle cues that are repelling women. It's more about subtracting the repel signals that he puts out for fear of the lemon juice hitting the shame wound. He would just be able to be himself more and be more confident in himself... and sometimes this that or the other woman would be interested in him because most women are attracted to men.

You're misdiagnosing why someone becomes an incel in the first place. People don't become incels because they are bad with women. People become incels because they feel ashamed of themselves. And becoming and incel and having trouble meeting women are both symptoms of the deeper root of shame. If an incel realizes he can find a girlfriend, it will fix the symptom-level problem, but it won't fix the deeper problem which is shame. If an incel gets a girlfriend, he will just have shame and a girlfriend. And perhaps he may graduate into more of a Red Pill perspective. But even though Red Pill is a bit more empowered than Incels, they both have an equivalent amount of shame because the root is the same.

The real issue here is that the reason why pick-up communities are toxic is that 'wanting to get better with women' is often just the presenting symptom of a deeper root issue with feelings of shame. So, pick-up communities and communities of men (like Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.) or even more conscious male communities that deliberately try to get away from how these other manosphere communities are, tend to be rife with feelings of shame surrounding pressures to match up to a particular Masculine ideal. These communities are actually communities where the #1 shared bonding factor is NOT getting good with women or being more Masculine or anything like that. Instead, the #1 shared bonding factor is collectively agitating and soothing shame. It's like those scenes in the movie Midsommar where everyone in the community are crying and screaming together and collectively sharing the pain. But men's groups aren't aware of that yet because collectively sharing pain isn't seen as Masculine, so it must be made unconscious. And the people that criticize them tend to vilify them and not see the human factor there... and thus don't notice that collective shame is at the root of all the problematic behavior in the groups. So, that awareness of shame isn't there yet. And so, what happens is that men get together to try to match up to the Masculine ideal... or to lament feelings of being unable to match up the Masculine ideal. And these feelings of shame are often seen as women's responsibility and women's fault. This is what leads to a lot of misogyny proliferating in these groups. And even if the guys in these groups are relatively conscious that misogynistic bit will be there because the main thing they feel shame about is their Feminine side. So, if you want to start a conscious men's group... start a shame support group for men. And if you want to start a conscious men's group that's oriented to dating/relationships... then throw away any and all notions of needing to match up to Masculine ideals (as this is where the shame comes from and where most of men's issues with meeting women comes from too). And instead focus on teaching social skills and emotional intelligence in conjunction with basic skills with meeting and dating and developing relationships with women. You would also want to focus on how to differentiate "problems with dating/approaching/meeting women" and "problems with shame" as the latter is often confused with the former.

To some degree that's true. But I notice that a guy might be thinking a woman thinking he's creepy if she's just not interested and says no. And I can get why it would feel that way. But most of the time it's just a lack of interest and even annoyance at her flow being interrupted. So, most women have been subject to genuine creepiness and aren't going to look at a guy who just isn't that good at small social cues as creepy unless he is going over other boundaries. They'll probably first just assume he's awkward or shy. That said, if it's cold approach then it may come off as creepy because of time and place being an inappropriate factor in conjunction with small awkwardnesses. To talk to a random woman in public (when it isn't a bar or club), it requires good social skills to still come off as normal.

The title sounds a bit suicidal. It might be a good idea to retitle it as "Hey guys. I'm leaving the forum" so as not to worry people.

When I was a teenager, I used to LOVE conspiracy theories. It was right around the time that the documentary "Zeitgeist" came out. And me and all my close friends watched it. And we would all just smoke weed and nerd out on this or that or the other conspiracy. So we'd be like "What if bugs aren't actually real and are just spy cameras from the government?" or "What if the world is ACTUALLY flat?" And we had so much fun and bonded over these conspiracy theories because it gave us an illusion of heightened empowerment over the corruption in the world and it brought us closer together as a group because we felt like we were solving mysteries together and that we were some of the few who even thought to question things. And it led into all of this other discussions of whether aliens are real and whether they've been here or not. And then we'd go, "Just wait until they dig up an ancient computer in Egypt." And we'd get downright giddy at these ideas. The problem is that all conspiracy theories eventually end up in bigoted territory... and ultimately give a false sense of "fighting the power" whilst real power goes unchecked. But the thing that makes conspiracy theories so attractive to people is that they're used as a social bonding strategy. There's so much intimacy and wonderment to be had with friends that you share belief in a conspiracy theory with. It's like being kids together and using your imagination to ping pong ideas off of one another to solve some glorious mystery. So, until we create better outlets for social bonding through shared imagination... conspiracy theories are here to stay.

Here are some creepy behaviors that I've experienced from guys... Giving "friendly" hugs that are really an obvious excuse for copping a feel (there is one guy in particular from high school that I'm thinking of who used to be like "where's my hug"? And whenever he'd hug me or my female friends, he'd caress the sides of our waists by grasping his fingers around our sides in a tickling motion. I was in a very huggy friend-group, so we'd tended to hug a lot (guys and girls). But this particular guy was always trying to get really sexual with it. Saying "I would (date/fuck) you if you weren't so ____" I had one guy tell me me that he "would fuck me if it wasn't for the fact that I had such fucked up teeth". I also had another guy who said a similar thing... but it was "if your face wasn't so flat". Making inappropriate comments This has happened quite often. But one instance that comes to mind is when I was in college and busking in the pedestrian area near my school and this random middle aged man came and sat next to me while I was playing the guitar. And he just motioned his hands in front of his chest and said "You have really big boobs." I told him to stop and go away and with a pained look in his face he said, "I guess I'm just a small doses person then." Making threatening comments I was also busking one night and this man (maybe in his 50s) saw me there playing my guitar and he was making advances which I turned down. Then, he got really threatening and said "You better start getting used to running from me." Stating his requirements/likes about what he wants about a woman to a woman who hasn't expressed interest This sometimes is creepy and sometimes is just a red flag. I know it's happened to me before but I don't have a clear memory in my mind about it. But I usually see some version of it online where a guy is saying he wants a "submissive" woman. And as a woman who generally likes to have some elements of a more traditional man/woman pairing where the man is leading a bit more, it just gives off this icky immature vibe. Following/stalking One time, I was walking back to my apartment from college and there was a guy that was on one of the last roads I had to turn down to get home. And he was clearly on something as he wasn't making much sense. He kept saying to me over and over "I write grants." I think he was trying to impress me by bragging about his job. But he was like a zombie and kept on following me and repeating over and over "I write grants" like a zombie repeats over and over "Brains!" Putting too much emotional weight into the conversation One time in my early 20s, I was out at this cigar bar that I still occasionally like to go to from time to time. And I always go up to the top floor because they have a chess set there, and I like to try to find people to play chess with me. So, I went there one time and I went up to the top floor and there was a bigger guy up there. And he and I started playing chess and at first it was. a pretty normal conversation. But he slowly revealed more and more his self-esteem issues and a kind of bitterness towards women for rejecting him. And I started having to walk on eggshells because I was afraid of hurting his feelings. He was like an open wound that I had to be very gentle with. It was kind of like a dynamic I had when I was in elementary school where no one wanted to be my friend, so when someone did, I would cling onto them too hard. I felt bad for him and felt empathy towards him, but it did put me off as he couldn't just talk to me like a regular person. Feigning concern as a means to get laid There have been a handful of times this has happened. When I was busking, I had a bunch of guys come up to me and ask me "Are you okay?" only to offer me money or a place to stay in exchange for sex. Another version of this was when this one guy that knew me and my then-boyfriend... and he was friends with my then-boyfriend. And I broke up with my bf, and he found me on campus and said "If you need a shoulder to cry on or someone to talk to, here's my number." And this guys was very obviously be opportunistic as he wasn't a very emotionally supportive person. Not taking no for an answer One time in college, I was going to walk back to my apartment from a party and it was just right down the street. This is right after I had broken up with my then-boyfriend and lots of guys I was acquainted with had caught wind of it and were trying to swoop in. There was this one guy who I had a lot of friends in common with, but that I hadn't personally met until that night. And it's not like we even talked or anything that night, I was literally just introduced. And I was going to go back to my apartment and this guy insisted on walking me home. And I kept telling him "No. I prefer to walk back alone." And he kept pushing and pushing and pushing and refused to let me walk back alone. So, I buckled and he walked back with me. And on the short walk there, he kept pressuring me and pressuring me and pressuring me to kiss him. And I kept refusing, and he kept badgering me. And then, he wanted to give me his number. And I said no a bunch of times. But I eventually put his number into my phone to get him to leave me alone. Comparing me to prettier girls to get me interested in him There was this one guy who used to ride my bus who used to talk a lot about this other girl to try to make me jealous. One time he said something like, "I used to like you but now I like her. So, I guess you're old news." But to me, he and I never had anything going on, and I was never interested in him. So, I found it kind of funny/creepy that he thought he could get to me like that. There was another instance when I was busking where this older (creepy looking) guy in his 50s (I was 20) came up next to me while I was busking. And he was saying "Wow. You're just some hippie chick. I like that." and he kept repeating that over and over. Then, this beautiful woman (maybe my age or a little older) who was wearing a short skirt and had her hair and make-up done came out of the nearby bar. And this guy then starts comparing me to her like "Wow! She's really hot and you're just some hippie chick." and it was clear he was trying to win me over by getting me to feel a need to compare myself to the woman. There are other examples of creepy behavior I've experienced over the years. But these are the ones that come to mind off-hand.

When it comes to why men/women might be forgoing relationships more and more, I think it 80% of it comes from the weakening of communities and that people aren't getting out and socializing as much. People just plug into social media all day and see the worst expressions (or caricatured expressions) of the opposite sex, and they get into rabbit holes where they avoid connection when they otherwise would have sought connection and pair bonding.

This seems to imply that you view a man who attracts women based on lust to be in a higher/better position with women compared to men who attract women based on love. Almost like... if a man is hot he can have a woman lust after him... but if a man is ugly, he can't get a woman's lust so he has to settle for getting a woman to love him. Setting aside that attractions don't really easily sort themselves neatly into the category of lust and love and that this is a false dichotomy... This implies that you view a woman's lust as harder to get than her love or that a woman's love is a consolation prize that you get when you can't get her lust. But honestly, lust is the easier of the two to get. And a man doesn't need to be conventionally attractive to get a woman's lust. Also, there seems to be some misunderstandings about male social status baked into this point of view... Ultimately, the men who are the most mature, well-adjusted, and functional tend to have the highest status in society. And mainstream society tends to view this in relation to the community that surrounds that man... including having a wife and children that he loves. There are also other factors like having charisma and a good job and looks are somewhere in there too. Usually, a guy who is good at picking up women and triggering interest at a bar is either young and experimenting (under 25) or he's older and learning pick up and he's a bit of a late bloomer. Neither one of those scream male status. My whole point in this is that you could benefit by getting a more accurate understanding of what actually makes a man highly valuable in the eyes of women and society at large. And his ability to have women lusting after him is not a great metric for it. A better metric is how capable he is of maintaining a longterm love relationship or how interconnected he is with his community.

The main thing is to get more comfortable socializing with people in general. I feel like this will go a lot further towards finding a compatible relationship than learning game. And IMO, pickup feels pretty gimmicky and can be a real mixed bag when it comes to developing social skills. On one hand, it can provide different strategies for picking up on signs of interest and how to create interest. On the other hand, most guys that I've met who do pickup would benefit significantly more just by learning how to be social in general. And pickup can sometimes promote/exacerbate pretty antisocial vibes, behaviors, and mindsets. And women tend to pick up on that and may intuitively or consciously steer clear of men who give off these signals. Like if I have men approach me in a public setting, I know that he's just crunching numbers and that he's probably doing pickup. And I'm sure most women recognize this at this point, given the popularity of pickup. And I/we are going to associate pick-up with a lot of anti-woman manosphere stuff... even if the guy is just trying to find a girlfriend. So, pickup will work eventually since it's a numbers game. But to be honest, I think that seeking to master community building and socialization in general (with all people) will go much further towards finding a relationship than cold approach and other pickup strategies.

What a nation can do is to put a tax penalty on moving a business from one country to another. Also, if that business's market is mostly situated in the country of origin... they that country of origin could impose high import taxes on ex-patriating businesses that disincentivizes those businesses from moving countries. If they were being really strict, they could even restrict imports from ex-patriating businesses. There are probably other policies they could enact that disincentivize people moving their businesses elsewhere. They would just have to apply consequences that impact the flow of money enough to offset the benefits of moving to a place with a lower tax burden. I don't have a lot of knowledge on how this impacts trade, but there's also global organizations like NATO and the UN that have policies that participating nations have to abide by. And perhaps there could even be policies in organizations like this where countries in the organization don't allow businesses from other member nations to leave their country of origin for a lower tax burden in another member nation.