Emerald

Gender differences are important to be mindful of... especially with sexual dynamics. But it requires more of a subtle delicate touch than a sledgehammer.

That's only fun for me (and most women) when the guy actually relates to me as his equal 90% of the time. And I'm sure that that's the case for your female partners. They probably feel safe to play to those sub/dom dynamics with you specifically because you're not ACTUALLY seeing them as children you must govern. Personally, I wouldn't even put myself in a position where I'd be calling a man "daddy" who literally saw me as a child he needs to emotionally manipulate to regulate my emotions for me. If I were in such a relationships, it just sounds like I'd be living my life inside of a bad bdsm porno... which is like the 7th circle of Hell. There just wouldn't be anything interesting there for me... and it would be stifling.

Well, thank you. But it's okay. I like to debate. It's hard to resist even with this topic because I sense I'm really pushing up against a very all-encompassing false paradigm that's creating a lot of suffering for people. It's like fighting a dragon that's holding people back from the joy that's possible for them and making people's lives worse. I likely won't succeed. But I like to fight the good fight.

I'm bisexual. So, that doesn't apply to me.

Well if we're going genetically (like with chimps), then men and women are 100% similar. But you're missing my point. Men and women can only have a deep intimate relationship when the relationship is built on a foundation of similarity. It's clear that most nerdy guys who suck with women suffer because they see women as so alien and different from them. And if they just recognized that women are ordinary people like they are, they wouldn't suck with women as much. And telling them to treat women as children is NOT helping them. You're seeing the poison as the antidote and the antidote as the poison.

100% There's a difference between containment and being able to depend on a man... and being treated like a chid.

I assume that by mature, you mean that you and I are both eggheads for this deepening consciousness and understanding reality stuff. So, in that case, I have the same relationship to other women that you have to other men. Do you really feel like you feel differently about women than the average Tom, Dick, or Harry down at the pub? I may be able to articulate my feelings about men better because I'm an egghead like you... but most women feel the same way as I do. I know because when I describe it women are often like "100%!"

It is both helpful and true that men and women are 95% similar.... just like the males and females of other species (including highly dimorphic species like lions and cows). It is true because it's true. We just over-focus on our differences because differences are more note-worthy than samenesses. And it is helpful because of what it does to men's ability to relate to women when they believe men and women are so different. They miss the foundation of sameness that's necessary to have a real intimate relationship. And they suffer because of it. But don't straw man me as making a stage green argument. I'm not saying there's nothing that's different about men and women. That 5% is noticeable and significant enough to pay attention to. And it can be played with to enhance male-female relationships. But as soon as that 5% gets taken as the full reality, the foundation of sameness is eroded... and no relationship can happen. That's why so many of the guys on here (including you) are stunted with regard to relationships with women. And it's important to recognize where you have a weak point so that you don't lead others astray... as most men likely do not want the relationship that you have with women. And these deficits are not because they are too unaware of the differences between men and women. These deficits are there because they're far too focused on it and aware of it. And this causes you and them to relate to women and aliens and children as opposed to as ordinary human beings like yourselves. But of course most women like to be treated in a Feminine way. But that doesn't require a man to see her as a child. These dynamics are more subtle and are only healthy as the icing on the cake of commonality.

Why do you believe that I'm so different from other women? I am not different than most women in this way. The average woman will agree with me and react similarly to such things.

The fish and shark analogy doesn't work for what you're trying to say... because sharks are fish too. And plenty of non-shark fish eat other fish and they are not imitating sharks. And no, Masculine and Feminine is not defined by our survival deficits... and they're not defined by the absence of certain qualities of the opposite polarity. The Masculine and Feminine is about what is there... and not about what's not there. And Masculine and Feminine is immutable. You can't add it or take it away because it just is the building blocks of your personality. So, these are subtle polar energies that co-mingle together to make up the human personality... and everything else in the known universe. It's Yin and Yang. And I know that this dynamic doesn't work because that's just not how human relationships function over the long term. It's not sustainable and no intimacy is possible unless there is a foundation of human-to-human sameness and friendship for the polar dynamics to exist within. Polarity is the spice... sameness is the foundation. And friendship and a recognition of basic human sameness is not possible if one partner is operating like the other partner's parent. But I'm not saying that highly Feminine woman is not healthy to date. There are plenty of very Feminine women who are integrated and mature. The same is true that there are plenty of very Masculine men who are integrated and mature. So, integration isn't about making everyone more androgynous than they actually are. Everyone has a unique Masculine/Feminine signature. And it's about embracing all of what's there.... instead of repressing parts of what's there in favor of jamming one's self into a narrow category. What I'm saying isn't that naturally Masculine or naturally Feminine men and women respectively aren't mature. What I am saying is that people who polarize and repress the opposite energy end up stunting themselves... and that leads to under-development and immaturity. And immaturity can happen whether a person is androgynous or non-androgynous... just like integration is possible for the androgynous and non-androgynous alike. Different people have different Masculine/Feminine signatures. To give an imperfect picture, I'll put numbers on it. The average person is like 75% towards the polarity that corresponds with their sex... and 25% towards the opposite polarity. That's probably what my signature is... 75% Feminine, 25% Masculine. But people are all over the spectrum. And probably only about 10% of people or so are 90% towards the polarity that corresponds with their sex. It's fairly uncommon for someone to have such a naturally polar Masculine/Feminine signature. But yes, seeing women as children that you need to help her manage her emotions is looking down on her. And unless she herself is underdeveloped and non-integrated, she will not be interested in a man who sees her that way.

The framework that I use for the Masculine and Feminine more generally is more archetypal and reflective of Yin and Yang. And you can notice subtle difference in men and women generally as it comes to these qualities. It's just that people like to exaggerate these differences because we respond sexually to super-normal stimuli around the more subtle sexual dimorphism of our species. We can see it in the way that some cartoonists depict cartoon characters... with an unrealistic exaggerated distinction between male and female characters. But that's not reflective of what's actually true as we are not 2-d characters. All human beings are 95%+ similar to one another. But we're very attuned to subtle differences, so we only focus on the 5% that's different. So, we like to think of men and women as very different, when we're 95% the same. And we want people to fit neatly in little Masculine and Feminine boxes.. but we don't. And those who expect themselves to will often feel shame. But these categories are valuable in that they show us where our resistances are. But they're incredibly unhelpful if we try to shove ourselves into either box... and doubly so if those boxes are more based in social constructs than in Yin/Yang. But in terms of Masculine/Feminine relationship dynamics, the key to understand is that they're subtle and the differences are only meaningful because we are so much the same. And these dynamics arise naturally without need for performance or orchestration... and without getting the mind too much involved. When you're trying to orchestrate it, you've already lost the real thing. And you're just play-acting. It really only arises in a meaningful way that strikes a deeper chord when you find it on the inside instead of an idea put on from the outside.

I think this viewpoint that a lot of the guys share on this forum (including Leo) comes from a lack of Feminine integration... and emotional stunting and lack of real relationship experiences with women that arises as a result of that stunting. It's juvenile Masculinity in a nutshell. Men who think this way about women just wouldn't be able to have a really deep mature relationship with women beyond the bag of tricks for attracting a woman during pickup. So, the ability to actually operate in a more human-to-human way with women is blocked off in favor of more simplistic user-friendly understandings where they can feel more in control. It tends to be more often that men who have had real longterm relationships with women tend to value a mature equal partner (though of course, there are plenty of exceptions... as immature men and women can also get together and stay together codependently). But the ability to relate to women in a mature way is often what enables men to establish longterm relationships with women in the first place. And men who cannot do that and who don't have a good relationship with their Feminine side, will stay alone theorizing and crunching the logical numbers of how to "play the female instrument" and maintain control so as to avoid being hurt. And minimizing women and seeing women as childish... and going for under-developed immature women that need someone else to regulate her emotions for her is just another way of trying to avoid feeling out of control and getting hurt.

You're saying a different thing to what Leo was saying. So, you're moving the goal posts. Sure, men are generally better equipped for things that require physical strength if that's what you're saying. But that isn't what Leo was saying, and it's not the point that I was arguing against. Leo was saying that you have to emotionally manipulate women and treat them like children. And he was saying that Feminine women are bad at survival and are irresponsible for their own emotions. And that the more responsible a woman is for her own survival and her own emotions the more Masculine and unattractive she is. That's the thing that I'm arguing against because it's not a tenable view to hold to have a deep intimate male/female relationship. I'm not arguing against the idea that men are generally stronger than women physically and might be more suited to physically taxing work. Nor am I arguing that women generally don't like to feel taken care of by their male partners. Generally, women do like to feel like the beloved and be treated as such. It's just the mindset that I mentioned above that I'm arguing against, because it's an unsustainable foundation for a relationship.

@integral I'm not saying people have to be hermaphrodites to be healthy... though over-attachment to one or the other polarity creates repression, so that isn't healthy. I'm a mostly Feminine woman myself, and I like to play at more traditional dynamics to some degree. But these exaggeratedly polarized ideas just don't fit with how human beings function. Masculine and Feminine dynamics are subtle when they work well. And they don't need to be orchestrated. Otherwise, it's just confining... and it makes people lose sight of the commonality. And that's where intimacy is lost.

I see. So, the issue is not really about you being picky, persay. Nor is it as case of feeling scarcity relative to relationships. So, you fall in neither of the categories I was mentioning before. So, the advice I gave to the other person would not fit you... as it's intended more towards guys that feel like they have to take whatever dating opportunities they can get. It's more of a sense of feeling scarcity relative to money... and deciding to forego realtionships until you get financially stable. That's a perfectly fine decision to make... as long as your expectations are realistic. Like if you want to be making enough to afford to live before getting into a relationship, that feels like a realistic expectation. But if you feel you need to be a millionaire before you can have a relationship, that would warrant some more exploration... as you may be using finances as a way to avoid relationship or feeling like you have to have some secondary boon for a woman to like you. (Those are just some examples, not saying that specifically describes you)

100% It really reduces the Feminine down to something very narrow... because that makes the Feminine feel less threatening.

It actually goes right along with my point. My point is that if you shift your mindset to one of abundance rather than one of scarcity, you can be more selective and have what you want without having to worry about "Do they like me?" Instead, you can ask yourself "Do I like them?" The same is true with people calling you picky. Who cares what other people call you? Just do what feels right to you. You don't have to fit other people's expectations of you because you have options. Now, since it's your friends calling you picky... you can question whether their perspective is reflective of some avoidant tendency they notice in you or if they're just not selective enough. If it's the former, you can consider if there's any validity to that perspective. But there is nothing wrong with being selective... as long as you're being realistic in your expectations and it doesn't prevent you from having a relationship. If it does, you might consider your friends' advice... as that's the other negative side of the spectrum relative to the person who has no standards at all.

Why do you care what someone else calls you? Just do what feels right to you.

Why is that the lesson?

Yeah, I feel like there's so much about living life as a woman that you really have to live in to experience... and you have to live it for a good long while too. And the longer you live it, the more you get it. And most of the guys giving advice haven't even had a mature longterm relationship with a woman or gone past the initial attraction phase of the relationship. And most haven't even integrated their own Feminine side, yet want to grand-stand as experts on the Feminine. But it's totally unearned because they just don't know any better. So, this advice comes from a place of confident ignorance of not knowing how to do anything else but how to theoretically attract a woman... and not even caring to know more than that. It just gets very stuck in the mud at step one of courtship before anything that's really interesting and deep can actually happen. And it often takes a relative truth about what women like and flanderizes it until it's not realistic or human at all. For example, it is true that a lot of women like to feel taken care of by their partner. But saying "You need to treat women like a child" and saying that women lose attractiveness if they are responsible and good at surviving.... just distorts these subtle relationship dynamics into something garish and tacky... and unlivable and stifling for human beings. And this loss of subtlety takes all the beauty out of Masculine and Feminine polarity... and turns it into a stifling, life-denying existence for the man and woman alike. I sense that this flanderizaton tendency comes from both a lack of lived experience... and a desire to control and repress their own Feminine side and to gain control over the Feminine in general to strip the Feminine of its power. Lots of these guys feel quite powerless in the face of the Feminine. So, there is a desire to minimize it and shrink it down to something that can fit comfortably in their pockets. And that means taking something real, subtle, and nuanced... and turning it into something artificial, obvious, and simple.

That seems like a much healthier relationship with masturbation than no fap. I think there's far too much stigma and shame applied to men masturbating... in the media and in society in general. So, when I've had male clients come to me in the past for help with better habits (with no fap often among them)... I notice that a lot of that comes from sexual shame and an attempt to control the body. Honestly, without a partner, masturbation seems like the best option to meet those needs. Porn can be unhealthy though, because of how it trains the mind to view sex and the meanings attached to sex. But moderation is key.

We live on a planet with 8 billion people. So, that's definitely a mindset thing. And you can change that mindset if you want to so that you don't give "scraping the bottom of the pot" vibes. You would also just need to be more social in general to make this mindset shift. And if you do make that shift, more women will see you as a higher quality guy who isn't desperate and has standards.

100% I am a woman. Stop assuming you understand this subject without experiencing it.

Yes, people are naturally multi-faceted in that way. Yin and Yang exists in all of us. And mature, well-integrated people will allow themselves to connect with all parts of themselves.