Emerald

So, you concede that your claim that "40% of people can't to Vegan without compromising their health" is just a conjecture based in how bell-curves generally work... and not actual evidence. None of this supports the actual claims you've made on this thread. It is just an explanation of how "What I said could potentially be true under these circumstances." But it still isn't viable evidence to support your claims about there being a high percentage of people who can't go Vegan. You probably put into AI some kind of prompt like, "Under what circumstances could it possibly be true that dietary diversity (such that some people cannot go Vegan without compromising their health) is under-represented within the repertoire of scientific studies and meta-analyses that exist." Yes, and based on the best data currently available, they have put out a public statement that a well-planned Vegan diet is adequate for all phases of life. And they wouldn't put out this "population guidance" if there was a large number of people who are not capable of going Vegan without compromising their health. Keep in mind that these health organizations are going to be thinking of ways to minimize public harm as much as possible. And if there was evidence that Vegan diets were harmful to to large swaths of the population, these organizations would not take that risk. Once again, I was NOT the one making an overall health claim about diets beyond what is accounted for in the evidence! I made that claim that, "Plant-based diets are associated with lower risk of heart disease, stroke, and all-cause mortality." because that is supported by actual evidence. But I never made a claim that "the Vegan diet works for 99% of humans." I was saying that there's NO EVIDENCE that exists that "some people can't go Vegan without compromising their health"... but that I hypothetically concede somewhat to your point that there probably are some edge cases where some people can't go Vegan that aren't currently accounted for in the evidence that exists. I was saying, "Your claim has no evidence. But I'd imagine hypothetically that you're not 100% wrong. There probably are some edge cases where people can't go Vegan without compromising their health." And you keep using my concession to your point as an indication that I'm making broad-sweeping dietary claims... when I am just stating that your dietary claims are baseless and have no evidence to support them. But I never made that claim... it was just a hypothesis. And I never once said "1%" when I made that hypothetical concession. That was you putting those words in my mouth. So, stop strawmanning me and acting like I'm making claims that I'm not actually making! But at least in the bolded line above, you finally admit that there is no basis for your claim that "40% of people can't go Vegan", which is the entire reason I'm arguing with you in the first place. You're pulling random claims of truth out of your hat that are unsubstantiated. And then you're getting up in arms and calling me a radical when I say, "There is no evidence for your claim." None of this proves your claims that "40% of people can't go Vegan without compromising their health". Nor does it prove the claim that, "The Vegan diet is unhealthy." or any of the wide-sweeping dietary claims you've made on this thread. It basically indicates that, statistically, if you want greater longevity, your best bet would be to minimize meat intake... but that Vegan diets correlate a 30% higher risk of hip fractures and "some" GI issues in longterm Vegans. But if you aren't going to make the claim, "Omnivorous diets are unhealthy because of a higher risk of heart disease, stroke, and an earlier death." You should be consistent and not make the claim, "Vegan diets are unhealthy because of a higher risk of hip fractures."

"Selective Science Denialism" is very succinct and well-put... and describes so many perspectives on this thread perfectly. Everyone keeps trying to muddy the waters with all kinds of non-evidence and baseless conjectures. And then, my experience is just... "How can I stick to the actual facts in these muddied waters where so many people have a strong motive to try to deny these facts and to maintain their paradigm?"

The difference between my saying, "Sure, hypothetically, you might be correct that there probably are people who can't go Vegan for health reasons." And you saying, "40% of people can't go Vegan without compromising their health"... is that my hypothetical was a concession to your perspective and me being charitable to your position. I wasn't making a claim of truth myself. I was trying to level with you and find a point of agreement. I was saying that (despite there being no evidence) you're probably partially right about your conjecture that "some people can't go Vegan without compromising their health". But you ARE making a claim of truth when you say "40% of people can't go Vegan without compromising their health". And that is a completely baseless argument that is based in no evidence. But you are not framing it as a hypothesis. You are framing it as the truth. And then pretending like my pointing out the lack of evidence is a radical perspective, when it's just an acknowledgment of the facts. There simply is no evidence to that effect. And if your claim that "40% of people can't go Vegan without compromising their health were true", there would be evidence (given that the human diet has been studied quite thoroughly) AND the WHO and ADA would not deem well-planned plant-based diets as nutritionally adequate. These organizations would be required to give a health warning about that type of thing if your claim that "40% of people can't go Vegan without compromising their health" were true.

The bolded point above is exactly right. Most people don't go Vegan because of the convenience, habit (as an extension of culture), and taste. They want to keep eating meat for pleasure. They just bring up all kinds of unsubstantiated arguments to hide that basic truth from themselves... and they have to pretend that they either don't have a choice... or that their choice is justified in x, y, and z ways. But it's all just a way to avoid the truth of their real motivations.

100%

Very true. You'd hope for different on a forum about developing a more holistic epistemology. It seems like people really misunderstand what it means to think holistically and to develop a robust epistemology. And instead of integrating wisdom of the scientific method into their framework, they want to chuck it out whenever it comes to ideas they want to protect. And then, they just reframe it as holistic thinking and "criticizing science from above", when they are actually criticizing science from below.

I already said that there's no proof to that conjecture as there is ZERO evidence that "some people are not capable of going Vegan without compromising their health." So, even my idea that there could potentially be people who can't go Vegan is just a baseless conjecture. I was just being charitable to your position when I conceded that there may be. But there is no such evidence. And I have framed that from the beginning as a mere hypothesis and NOT as a claim. I have NOT made any baseless claims of truth. BUT YOU HAVE when you claimed that it was true that "40% of people are not capable of going Vegan without compromising their health." But just like there is no such evidence that "5% of people aren't capable of going Vegan without compromising their health." There is EQUALLY NO EVIDENCE to your CLAIM that "40% of people aren't capable of going Vegan without compromising their health." But there IS evidence that adopting a Vegan diet leads to better health outcomes in terms of the prevention of heart disease and stroke... which are the number one killers. And the ADA and WHO have both deemed a well-planned Vegan diet as nutritionally adequate at all phases of life, which they would not have done if they had evidence that 40% of peoples' health was at risk from going Vegan.

What I mean by real evidence is evidence that is derived from studies and meta-analyses from large sample sizes of the population. That's the only valid evidence you could use to determine the truth about claims of the overall health of a diet or lack-there-of. You can't just be like, "Because I believe this diet is healthy, it means it's healthy." or "Because ___ got good results on this diet, it means it's healthy." That's just a lower quality standard for evidence. Jenky science = Jenky epistemology I've posted the Hierarchy of Scientific Evidence below so that you can understand better what constitutes real evidence when you're making a claim of truth about something.

I already said it was a hypothesis and framed it as such. Like I said, there is NO SUCH EVIDENCE that there are people who exist who aren't capable of going Vegan without compromising their health. But out of charitability to your position, I WAGER that there are some edge cases where some people who can't go Vegan because of certain conditions which haven't been accounted for in studies. As I said... this is a hypothesis. I am not framing it as true. It is just what I believe to likely be true in lieu of evidence that supports your point about dietary diversity. But your claim that "40% of people can't go Vegan because of dietary diversity" IS BEING FRAMED AS TRUE. But there is ZERO EVIDENCE to back up that claim. You just keep appealing to the notion of dietary diversity as evidence enough to support that claim, when you have no evidence to support that claim. And you keep clutching your pearls and throwing ad homonyms about how radical I am for "rejecting dietary diversity" when I have done no such thing. I recognize the possibility of dietary diversity and it makes sense to me that human needs would vary to some degree. But there is no evidence that "40% of people can't go Vegan without compromising their health." And it doesn't matter how much you try to slice things.. there is ZERO evidence that backs up your claim.

As long as you're not making any objective claims about the Vegan diet, then you can hold whatever beliefs you want. But as soon as you start making baseless claims like "40% of people can't go Vegan without compromising their health" or some other general claim about the Vegan diet, you're going to need some real evidence to back that up. And real evidence means actual studies and meta-analyses on the human diet.

Yes it is dietary diversity. I just have a hypothesis that dietary diversity between human beings is subtle... not extreme. But you have a hypothesis that dietary diversity between human beings is extreme. But regardless of our own baseless hypotheses on the matter, there is no evidence that exists that "___% of people can't go Vegan without health issues." That's why I'm saying that I wager that there probably are some people who can't go Vegan, even if they aren't accounted for yet in a study. And that is me being charitable to your position, despite there being no evidence to support that claim that "some people can't go Vegan." So, my hypothesis is that there may be a small percentage of people out there who can't go Vegan because of very specific conditions that make plant-consumption more difficult. But there is ZERO evidence that a large percentage of people can't go Vegan because of EXTREME dietary diversity. And if it were the case that 40%+ of people are not capable of being Vegan, this would most certainly be accounted for in the litany of studies and meta-analyses that have been done on the human diet. But there is NO SUCH EVIDENCE. You're just pulling that idea out of your own mind.

My argument isn't about health, at its core. I am of average health, and I am not claiming to be super healthy. My argument is about how people use evidence-less claims that "plant-based diets are unhealthy" to justify their own actions to themselves. And to get people to see their self-deceptions, you have to get people to recognize when they are making baseless claims about health... or other things as well. Otherwise, they can keep hiding themselves from themselves using those baseless claims.

Another straw man. I haven't rejected the concept of dietary diversity at all. I even said that I would wager that there are some people who can't go Vegan who have certain conditions like Epilepsy and autoimmune issues. So, my claim isn't that "dietary diversity doesn't exist". I'm just pointing out that your claim that "40% of people can go Vegan without compromising their health" doesn't have any actual evidence to support it. You're just explaining the general notion of how a bell curve works and claiming that the way that bell curves work is viable evidence to your above claim. And you are referring to this baseless claim listed above when you're using the term "dietary diversity". And then you're pretending that my pointing out that there's no evidence to that claim means that I am rejecting the existence of dietary diversity, when I acknowledged it earlier in the thread.

You see, I'm not even trying to convince people to go Vegan. Nor am I saying that Vegan values are universal values. Like, you won't ever see me randomly trying to convince a person to change their diet. Nor will you find me trying to convince a person who doesn't care about the well-being of animals to care about the well-being of animals. I have these arguments mostly because intellectual dishonesty annoys the crap out of me... no matter which form it comes in. And people who make anti-Vegan posts that are like "Veganism is bad because ____" are unconsciously employing a lot of intellectually dishonest tactics for the purpose of convincing themselves that they are fine with doing something that they're not actually fine with deep down. So, because intellectual dishonesty and mental gymnastics is a pet peeve of mine, I can get really into these types of arguments where I try to show an uncomfortable truth to people who are trying to use all sorts of jiggery pokery to make that truth seem false and to shut it down so as to avoid acknowledging that truth. But alas, arguing with a person who's intellectually dishonest and unaware of their intellectual dishonesty is like trying to play chess with a pigeon. You could be making all the right moves, but the pigeon will just crap all over the chess board and claim that they won the game.

I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you in particular. This entire conversation began on another thread where another poster made some kind of hokey argument about the existence of Veganism eroding cultural practices. And when someone challenges Veganism with these insincere arguments, that's when I try to get people to face the REAL reason why they're being so defensive in the first place.... which is usually doesn't actually have anything to do with their defense, but purely because they don't agree with their own actions. Otherwise, they wouldn't go into defense mode and have to create these hokey arguments in the first place. And now, you're doing it with all these unsubstantiated health claims about the Vegan diet.... like your conjecture that 40% of people can't go Vegan at all. And you're trying to protect the idea of this unsubtantiated claim under the guise of "embracing the diversity of dietary needs" and "here's a chart about how bell curves work." But no matter how you slice it, there just isn't any evidence that 40% of people can never go Vegan. Your claim is baseless. And there is no evidence to your claim that "Veganism is unhealthy and unsustainable." This claim is also baseless. And why would you hold onto such an unsubstantiated claim in the first place, unless this unsubstantiated claim was protecting you from recognizing deeper truths about yourself?

Yes, there are all kinds of messages in the culture that serve the function of trying to discredit the choices of those who go against the status quo and to try to convince those that go against the status quo to return to it. And I saw some kind of study that Vegans were rated as the group that has the most negative associations with them. And I suspect it's because a lot of people agree with Vegans values-wise. They just don't live in alignment with those values. So, the existence of Vegans make people who are not Vegan very uncomfortable and combative and defensive about their dietary choices. And being on the receiving end of that combativeness and defensiveness, can make it tempting to just give up the good fight and go back to the status quo and to cook up some reason why "Veganism is actually bad after all!". The reality is that it just makes people uncomfortable when people make different ethical choices than the majority because people go, "OH NO! Does that mean that I'm unethical!?!?!" And they quickly find a way to get that thought to leave their mind. But yes, it can be difficult to stick to Veganism if everyone around you is repeating a bunch of "Veganism will kill your health" narratives. The main challenge is staying aligned with what you know to be true and what feel is right, even when others are trying to knock you off the center spoke of your sovereignty with all sorts of invalidating narratives.

You could also use this rationale to justify allowing serial killers to kill indescriminately... but I doubt you'd be okay with that. So, you don't really believe this... unless it's used to justify your own dietary choices.

I used to justify my meat consumption through these appeals to futility as well. I was like, "Well, I could quit eating meat. But the animals will die anyway." But the fact of the matter is that boycotts are an effective form of protest. The fact of the matter is that my power is small. But I do have power. And I choose to use what little power that I have to make a vote in the direction I'd like to see. Plus, it helps me stay aligned with my own values... which I wasn't before when I was eating meat. Also, you are not in the same position as the lion, because the lion literally NEEDS to eat meat to survive. For humans who aren't dealign with food scarcity, we don't need to eat meat to survive. We only eat it for pleasure. And yes, meat is delicious. Some of my favorite foods were meat or meat related. But I quit to stay aligned to my values.

But your biology doesn't require meat. I haven't eaten meat in 9 years. And I know people who've been lifelong Vegans and Vegetarians who were raised that way who have never eaten meat in their lives. So, the reality is that you DO eat meat for pleasure and convenience... even if you believe you eat it because you "require it." And I disagree with the practice of eating meat for pleasure because it doesn't sit well with me.

@integral The whole reason we've even gotten into the scientific argument in general is because you were trying to use scientific arguments to invalidate Veganism as a diet and as a practice, so that you can defend your own choices to yourself. The whole crux of my argument is, "People use tons of rationalizations to invalidate Veganism because it helps them avoid their real motivations from themselves." And "I'm not Vegan because Veganism is unhealthy" is just one of those rationalizations that people hide behind to avoid seeing their motivations that they would disagree with if they became conscious of them. I didn't go Vegan for health reasons myself. I went Vegan to stay aligned with my own values because I disagree with the practice of eating animals for pleasure. It's just a bonus that it comes with added health benefits and environmental benefits. And the only reason why I'm arguing with the health claims in the first place is to show you that you're using a bunch of unsubstantiated health claims about Veganism in order to explain away your choices, so that you don't have to acknowledge the fact that your consumption of animals doesn't have anything to do with health at all. Either that, or you are genuinely mistaken and believe that the Vegan diet is unhealthy. And if I can help you realize that this belief is unsubstantiated, then you can get more honest about your own motivations because you won't have the misconception that "Veganism is unhealthy" to hide behind. And, the only thing scientific you've given me is a few studies that show that a high percentage of Vegans are deficient in a particular nutrient. And if you were making the claim that "x% of Vegans tend to be deficient in ___ nutrient.", then that wouldn't be an issue. But you're making wild unsubstantiated claims like... "40% of people can't go Vegan because their health would deteriorate." "The Vegan diet is unhealthy and unsustainable for most people." "You can't meet all of your nutritional needs on a Vegan diet, even with supplementation." "Supplementation doesn't help with nutrient deficiencies." And none of these claims are based in evidence. And when I point this out, you accuse me of being ideological. But I just want you to see the truth that you're doing mental gymnastics with all these unsubstantiated health claims. Just face with the real reason you're ACTUALLY eating animals without clinging to unsubstantiated claims around Veganism being unhealthy. And then, ask yourself, "Does this motivation align with my values?" And since you've been Vegan before, it will be extra difficult for you to face the truth. And that's why you're trying so hard to justify your dietary choices to yourself by proxy of arguing with me.

I'd rather them die of old age and in a manner that has nothing to do with my personal choices or my own exploitative actions. The reason I don't eat animals or animal products is because I disagree with the practice of eating animals for pleasure.

This is tiring. I'm clearly not going to be able to convince you guys that anecdotal evidence doesn't constitute valid evidence to the overall health of a diet or lack-there-of. (regardless of what the diet is) I've already been clear that my reason for being Vegan is to stay in integrity with my own values because I don't see human pleasure and convenience as more important than the life and well-being of animals. And if I were to keep eating animals for pleasure like I used to, I'd have to do a lot of hard-core lying to myself and mangling my epistemology and dampening the scope of my consciousness like you guys do to maintain that habit. And I've already conveyed to you guys that there is no evidence that a Vegan diet leads to worse health outcomes compared to an omnivorous diet... and that reducing and eliminating animal products from your diet decreases the risk of heart disease and stroke, which are the number one killers. And I've already conveyed that most people who make appeals to health as a way to invalidate Veganism are doing mental gymnastics because they don't want to face the facts of their real motivations... which is to continue eating animals for pleasure and to convince themselves that they're eating animals for health. Take those facts or leave them. I don't want to keep reiterating the same facts at a brick wall. If you want to argue with me, you can just reference this post... which contains the full extent of the claims that I'm making.

Thank you for being honest. It makes sense that you are not Vegan... because you don't have Vegan values. I disagree with your position. But I can at least respect that you are not doing mental gymnastics and going into cognitive dissonance to try to maintain an identity of goodness.

I'm saying that, if your claim that "40% of people can never go Vegan without compromising their health" were true, these health organizations would not have the stances on Veganism that they do. And beyond that, there would be ACTUAL data to back that up in studies. But no such data exists. You're just pulling these really high numbers out of the air. Also, there is no such evidence that there even are people who exist who can't go Vegan. But despite the lack of evidence that there are people who can't go Vegan, I'm being charitable to your position and assuming that there are a few percentages of people who would struggle to go Vegan because they have certain conditions. So, given my baseless charitability to your position, I would wager that it is possible that there are people who can't go Vegan but that they're a small minority. But that is just a hypothesis, because there is no actual evidence that I'm aware of to your claim "some people can't go Vegan without compromising their health" at all.

If you are trying to make claims about the overall health of a diet (or lack thereof), yes it is self-deception (or even just a misunderstanding of what constitutes viable evidence) to see personal anecdotes as an indication of what's true. But @ExploringReality isn't making such claims. So, it's fine on that level. The reason why I'm telling you that personal anecdotes aren't valid is because you keep making wild unfounded claims about plant-based diets that aren't backed up by anything other than personal anecdotes. And you are cherry picking the personal anecdotes that already fit your own biases... as you could just as easily find personal anecdotes that support the opposite claims.