Emerald

Yes, I did think that being goth made me more attractive. And I am motivated to dress for beauty. I mentioned as much in the posts above. And I was attracted to guys who had a similar style back then. And I knew my clothing style would attract a compatible man. That's one of the benefits of dressing in a niche style. What's your point? I never said that these weren't components of my drive to dress in a gothy way. I already said that I like to use dressing up to feel beautiful and more empowered.... as it makes the libidinal energy flow. And certainly there are both sexual and social components that factor into that. But the identity went beyond something relational and had to do more with how I feel and see myself when I have a certain appearance. It's just that, if I look a certain way, I feel like the best version of myself and that I'm really expressing myself fully. Still not sure what you're getting at here.

Because that was the case for you, it makes sense that you'd project that other people are doing the same thing as well. But I don't even see what a person could possibly get out of a relationship beyond just sex if they were just settling. And that seems like a lot of trouble to go through just to get sex.

Yes, many times with goth make-up. That used to be the way I dressed up every day for like 5+ years of my life. My go to was to do black lipstick and winged eye-liner with harlequin details... and to wear long flowing black skirts with a black and white patterned shirt with a vest or blazer over it. Or I'd dress more like the goth lolita fashion with lots of frills and puffy skirts. So, every day was dress-up. I wasn't casual about it. It was quite ornate.

Most of these guys issues that you're referring to as "not being Masculine enough" is just men responding to these limiting beliefs and propaganda narratives about women. It's normal for a man to be a bit nervous around a woman he's attracted to. But now-a-days, with all the internet propaganda that normal insecurity gets blended together with all these "you're a little bitch boy that women will never love" narratives. And what was before a surmountable insecurity becomes fuel to maintain these victim narratives and anti-social narratives that are being pedaled on the internet.

This is just another one of those anti-social internet victim narratives that men are propagandized with... which will lead to lots of unhappiness and loneliness. Best to avoid the victim's mentality and open yourself up to connection so that you don't end up missing out on the formative experiences of youth and with lots of regrets as you get older.

And when you were in these longterm relationships, were you just settling and sticking around until someone better comes along?

That's talking past the point that I'm actually making. The point that I'm making is that men are being indoctrinated into paradigms about women that are setting them up for guaranteed disconnection and loneliness in the future, as men with these paradigms won't be capable of being in an intimate relationship with a woman. And they're so locked into these anti-intimacy perspectives that they use for protection, that the reality of human-to-human can't seep in enough to allow for real connection and intimacy to come through.

Yes, I have actually. I used to do performance art when I was in college, and there were a few times where I did my make-up like a mime in my performance art. And I would do my make-up at my apartment and walk to the college in the mime get-up. And I have done my make-up in ways that I liked when I was a teenager that most people would not like. Though I genuinely enjoyed the look, most people would say that I looked worse than without it because it wasn't their cup of tea.

Make-up and fashion is also a hobby.

Sure, there are those moments too when you get into more comfortable clothes. But there's also a lot of fun in "playing dress-up". Like especially back in my goth days, I would just do up all my goth garb and hang around the house and listen to music and feel pretty. The style doesn't resonate with me much anymore because my tastes have changed over the years to more subtle styles, but I still occasionally like to play around with make-up and clothes and to feel elegant. No event necessary.

Sure, the gym can be done purely for health. So, I agree in that sense. But the more aesthetic drivers are similar... and can be done simply because it's a personal preference. Maybe a guy feels better when he's super jacked. And maybe a woman feels better when she's wearing make-up. And there's usually a social element... but also an identity and emotional element too that exists. But let's not pretend that make-up is super unhealthy and like make-up is going to murder your family just because you dislike Feminine hobbies.

Of course, I must be physically and sexually attracted to a man to consider him for a long-term relationship. That's why I said, attraction and long-term relationship desire for me (and many women) are one and the same. Like, I'd never be interested in having a longterm relationship with a man I'm not attracted to. But if I'm attracted to a man, the driver is about getting closer to him and more intimate with him... and desiring him for a longterm relationship. I can't even fathom what it is to just see some guy and be like, "I find him attractive and want to screw that guy and then have nothing to do with him." I'm sure some women might operate that way where she's geared towards short term hook-ups. But I don't think most women do.

What's your rationale there? Both are about changing your appearance. What's the difference?

I do it because of the feeling states it produces in me... regardless of who sees me. Similar to how I'd eat my favorite food even if no one is watching because I enjoy the flavor of the food, I would do things that evoke my favorite emotions regardless of who's watching because I enjoy the "flavor" of the emotion. And when I feel beautiful, the libidinal energy flows more and it feels exciting. And I feel beautiful when I have put effort into looking beautiful. I also enjoy it when others perceive me as beautiful because it makes me feel like I'm embodying a more empowered identity... and that my insides are more easily reflected outwards. So, these drivers are intertwined with social things and I like embodying a certain persona in public... but don't require the social element for me to desire to connect with those feelings. Honestly, if someone made a drug that made you feel beautiful regardless of how you objectively looked, I would have a hard time not partaking in it as it's just an enjoyable state to be in.

You tend to do that a lot, I notice.

It depends on the age, maturity, experience level, and level of development of the man. If the man is young (under 25)... or is older than 25 but is immature, he will probably gladly choose the life where he can fuck a different woman every day. And this describes what many men value... especially ones that feel a sense of scarcity relative to women being interested in them. And they will want to continuously re-up with constantly renewing female validation and a sense of conquest. And that is the male fantasy. But a lot of guys who actually make this happen for themselves end up feeling really empty, depressed, and miserable having lots of random sex because it doesn't meet the deeper need for intimacy and it will put them in a lot of transactional dynamics of mutual usery. Then, if he keeps up with that past the age of 40, he just becomes "that creepy lonely old guy" trolling around the clubs. But if a man is mature and developed as a person, he will be more likely to choose the relationship with the deep connection. Usually, there might be a pattern of hooking up or dating around until the mid-20s. And then, the man will usually try to seek out a longterm partner. The issue that I'm responding to here is that men are learning to rules of a game that will eventually leave them socially isolated and disconnected... as they are preparing for a future where they'll be fucking a lot of women (which let's be real, the majority of these guys won't. Most of them are struggling just to get one woman interested in them because of the paradigms they're operating through.). But it anti-prepares them for longterm relationships to the point where they become too disconnected and emotionally stunted to even have one. And their fate will be some desperate lonely older guy who's a batchelor for life, which most men don't actually want.

To me and for many women, these are one and the same thing.

You just said that opposite thing in your post to me above... "But the women always say, "I'm not doing it for you, I'm doing it for ME! I'm not here to please your dick." Likewise, men are not here to please your vagina. Men get jacked to please themselves."

I've certainly dolled myself up at home with nowhere to go just to feel pretty. Lots of women do. One thing that might not be evident from the male perspective is that it feels really empowering to feel beautiful. And preening feels good to do. It's like how peacocks will fan their feathers out, even if there are no peahens around. Of course it has a reproductive function that underlies it. But in practice, it feels more like embodying an empowered Feminine identity. Yet again, if I were literally the only person alive on the planet, I'd probably be depressed because of unmet social needs. So, I probably wouldn't be putting effort into very much... including appearance.

100% Women are not exempt from misunderstanding what men like. When I was 13 or 14, I used to believe that women had to be as rail-thin as possible to be attractive to guys. Yet again, many women realize that men don't prefer really garish make-up (or rail-thinness). And they will wear make-up more to make themselves happy than to be attractive to men. And of course, a man who simply prefers himself to look super ripped should do so... as that's a reflection of his own preferences. The issues is when men believe that they need to have a hyper-Masculine appearance or demeanor to be attractive to women... and are getting jacked and shredded to attract women. It's just as ineffective as a woman doing a bunch of garish plastic surgery procedures to try to attract men.

Perhaps not every woman. But beautification is a common driver for many women. It's a lot of fun and feels very empowering to peacock around. The main difference here is that women tend to openly admire the looks of attractive stylish women. For these "maxing" manosphere guys, there is often a fear of coming across as "gay" or "Feminine"... but simultaneously a rabid fascination with a particular kind of hyper-Masculine male body type. And men tend to project their own aesthetic preferences for hyper-Masculine men onto women who tend to prefer more subtle expressions of Masculinity.

I get what you're saying. I think the guy in the video (who I believe is gay) sees these patterns in heterosexual men as more homoerotic rather than actually gay. There's this preference for certain hyper-Masculine aesthetic features in men in the eyes of the heterosexual male gaze.... which is then projected onto women who actually find different things attractive about men than heterosexual men do, in reality. So, there is a driver that could be called "homoerotic" in straight men to admire the features of a hyper-Masculine guy. But most heterosexual men would feel uncomfortable admitting that homoerotic driver in themselves. So, the guy in the video seems to be implying that part of the denial of the divergence of the female gaze form the male gaze is that there's a taboo against hetero guys noticing the attractiveness of men. But moreso than that, there is a denial about women's divergent preferences for generally... because it undermines a lot of their narratives. And I see that as far more of a driver of this denial of female nature than it is about denying this homoerotic driver.

Clearly, you've never been a parent. And I'd wager from your previous post that you've never had a longterm relationship either.

100%

That's just like saying that every parent prefers an ideal child but simply just settles for the child they have. It negates the role of love and connection in the valuation of a particular partner. And it pornographizes sex and coupling by stripping these human-to-human communions of all depth and humanity until the whole male/female dynamic becomes dull, cheap, and energy draining.... and wholly lacking in true eroticism. It's a degenerative mindset to have about sex and relationships that makes men untenable relationship partners... and negates the more holistic truth of what's really valuable about male/female relationships.