Emerald

I think he's going more hypothetical with this one. Like, imagine that the actual truth were not what is. Instead in this imaginary reality, the truth is that, when you wake up it's eternal hellfire and suffering. And hellfire and suffering is the absolute truth, genuinely. If so, would you still pursue it, when things get worse in realizing this absolute Truth is this hypothetical version of reality? It's an interesting question.

There is probably nothing that you could've done. I think one very harmful misconception in pick-up/dating circles is the idea that your lack of (x,y,z) caused the woman to be disinterested. It is an empowering thought because it makes men feel more in control of their dating lives. But it's a double edged sword because a man will be made to feel responsible for something he had no control over in the first place. But it's a very enticing half-truth. So, it's difficult to drop.

I'm not saying that you necessarily are breaking social folkways. But when it comes to having deep feelings in general, there are social folkways around the expression of that. So, if you want to express your feelings honestly, you'll have to be mindful of them. So, it's not about fixing your feelings but about filtering your feelings through the lens of those social folkways. But I don't think it's out of bounds to want closure. My main point is that your feelings are not wrong, but to be mindful of how you express them relative to social norms and others' boundaries. This is general advice and not specific to what I'm observing. Also, it's important to realize that, even if you do all the "right" things, there is never a guarantee. There is no method to love. It has so much to do with chemistry and intuition in her experience which is no fault of your own. And particularly, with regard to women who have traumas and blockages, it doesn't have to do with anything you did or didn't do. It's just her own internal thing that she has to deal with. So, there is really nothing to fix, unless you want to sharpen your social acuity and find ways to authentically express without seeming needy. But I don't necessarily think that's the case, as I am not observing directly. Your first text looked very normal to me, and I didn't pick up on neediness in it. The second one was very long, which would indicate neediness. But given that that was the only means of communication it makes sense for you to get closure.

Well, at the end of the day, there is no sure-fire way to make a woman fall in love. Attraction can be garnered in some cases. But love is a different story. And this is especially true for a woman who is guarded and who's still doctoring old wounds and trying to hide them. She cannot feel the way you do because there is pain, and there's not much you can do about that. So, in this case, I'm thinking that it's more related to her pain and insecurities keeping her from relaxing into her feelings. It was probably easy to do before she started to feel that way. But once she did, she probably noticed a vulnerability. Then, she saw what were red flags to her in the nature of the FWB realtionship and the RSD thing. Since she has had the wool pulled over her eyes in the past, and she doesn't have a clear intuitive sense for who's playing her and who's not. So, this is probably why she became defensive and lost feelings. She couldn't take the risk. Now, it's normal to feel the way that you do. It may not be seen as very manly. And it could go over the bounds of social folkways as well. In which case, there are ways to express authentically and honestly without being out of bounds in this way and maintain social acuity. But getting strong feelings for a woman you're sleeping with is normal. That's what's supposed to happen. Biologically, you'd be together for quite some time raising a child together if you'd had sex in the caveman days. So, feelings are normal. Now, if you're making it mean something about yourself or your status or something, then of course that shows a self-esteem issue. But it's normal to feel deeply, as long as it's expressed properly without going out of bounds. And you should respect her wishes about not contacting her. So, you will have to process this in a different way. But you have to tune out all these pick-up half-truths if you want to accept your feelings and learn to express them in a copacetic way, because it won't work for these matters.

For most women this is at least a red flag. And for many women it's totally a deal-breaker. Women, who are relationship oriented in general, are looking for a man who is oriented toward stability and settling down. So, the RSD thing calls that into question. Very uncomfortable for most women who are looking for security and stability. Now, you can get lots of sex that way as a man. You will have success with that. But you'll tend to scare off anyone who may have been interested in a serious relationship.

I don't think you should hold anything back. But you should have been more up front and had the interaction in person. Now, I know she wouldn't have wanted it at that point. But women appreciate it when a guy is up front about these things. Now, if there is an incongruence in feeling... or even capability to feel, there will be issues. She will probably feel uncomfortable. So, be mindful of that. But just be more open with communication in general and own how you feel without worrying about neediness. Because it is only you being needy that makes you care about expressing emotion and potentially showing neediness in the first place. Basically, be real and be confident that you will attract some women just by being how you are. And avoid the dealbreakers. That's all you really need to do to attract the right woman. But if you want abundance and excitement, then do the stuff. Also, don't listen to the guy who just posted. For most women, bringing them to an RSD event would at least be a red flag and for many a deal breaker. Now, I'm not saying you couldn't find anyone who's okay with it. But by and large, most women at least have a bad taste in their mouths about it.

The 'neediness' seems to come from emotional investment that isn't returned. So, you're in the deep end hoping that she'll meet you there. This comes up naturally as a byproduct of being emotionally invested and wanting the other to be just as invested. Everyone feels this way, and that's normal. The problem with it comes more from interacting with partners who are unable to meet you in that depth, and the incongruence can be quite nerve-wrecking. Now, there should perhaps be some skills developed for how to express that degree fo emotional investment openly and honestly in a way that doesn't burden another person or go over their boundaries. And getting practice with being able to give space and detach. So, in this way there is not a maturity. But the desire for emotional connection and depth and intimacy that you have takes some maturity to develop. Many people end up desiring sex and excitement, which is quite easy. But it's harder to remain open and vulnerable and in touch with the emotions. So, it comes down to being oriented in a more mature way but expressing that which comes from that orientation in a way that's not tactful. Also, not being able to read the cues intuitively as to who is and isn't capable of meeting you where you are. And this is where the lack of experience comes in. So, the depth is very mature. The other things are not so much. But it seems you're trying to fix the mature and authentic part to fit more in with the schema that you've learned and others operating under that schema. Instead, you should focus toward women who are capable of going to the same depths as you are and who desire depth and intimacy. It takes a bit longer to simmer, but it's infinitely more fulfilling to be with such a partner.

No, you're level 3 in your orientation toward more mature relationships, but coming up from level 1 in terms of your experiences. But perhaps you're more level 2 in the way of experiences if you've had hookups and all that. So, that was maybe a bit of a mistake on my part. So, the emotional maturity is there because your heart is more open, but it seems you have doubts and probably would have a hard time imagining a woman that meets you where you are because you've experienced only hookups. Hookups really only work for those at level 2 who aren't very open or those who are just experimenting. If you're level 3 experiencing the level 2 world, eventually you'll desire something deeper. Too much uncertainty and drama and blah-ness at level 2. Men and women at 2, really tend to despise eachother at that level.

I agree. It's really showing you that you want a deep connection with a particular woman. In which case, you'd need to work on your sense of self worth a bit to have confidence... not trying to be "the confident guy" but just enough for you to feel comfortable being who you are... which is already enough. And just be authentic and have a great time while staying inside the lines socially. You can also learn a thing or two about what women generally respond to if things seem to be escalating. That's no problem. But ditch cold approach and FWB situations and gaming techniques. As they won't be fulfilling for you or her. And you'll be finding women who are responsive to that, who are notoriously not very in touch with their feelings or intuition and don't have that "one person in particular" thing that you are capable of and have preference toward. The problem is that you're a 'level 3' guy with mostly 'level 1' experience, using 'level 2' techniques which attract 'level 2' women. But level 2 women will hurt a level 3 guy who has level 1 experience because he is much more in touch with his emotions and is more mature than they are but also doesn't have experience to contrast with healthier relationships. So, the levels represent development in regard to relationships. With level 1 being no experience and victim's mentality. Level 2 being about relatively shallow but exciting connections, mostly done to compensate for low self-worth. Level 3 being about sharing deeper levels of intimacy with another person. You're oriented toward a more mature relationship naturally. But you don't have much experience and don't yet know how to make that happen. But the techniques that you're employing are not well-suited to finding the thing that you want because that advice is much more oriented toward abundance with level 2 women instead of depth with one particular level woman who is capable of meeting you where you're at. Instead try to build platonic relationships with women (through warm approach), and see where they go. And if you begin having feelings for a woman, then you can start some of the techniques. Not in a manipulative way, but moreso like curating the situation in a way. And the thing is that women like warm approach a lot better. So, a woman who has feelings for you will like you in particular for being who you are. And you don't have to get granular about how you are or how you're expressing yourself.

Well said. That's exactly what I mean. From my POV, I'm not going to be attracted to a guy who's really into game because I crave authenticity, intimacy, and depth. And most guys who are in that phase of dating are just not compatible and aren't capable of that depth of feeling, and I feel it on them. But there is no doubt that with the RSD techniques, they'll have success in sleeping with women. They could get tons of women to sleep with them. But they'll be finding mostly the type of women who are at a similar level of development and trauma as them intimacy-wise. But they'll take their success as being a truism about all women (or even most women). When it's really not true, probably about 30%-40% of women are susceptible and are in their potential pool of hook-ups. But a woman who is looking for a deep relationship will register a guy who's doing that kind of thing as an indicator that he can't meet her where she needs to be met. And no attraction will blossom from it. And if a guy is (unbeknownst to himself) really looking for a deep connection, advertising that he's into pick-up and doing the pick-up strategies will be seen as disingenuous for a woman who is tuned into that brand of inauthenticity... which women encounter all the time. And so, she'll naturally sort him into the "nay" category.

Kind of sounds like advice that might get him into the same predicament in the future with girls who have similar sensibilities about things...

Guy 2. No doubt. All the other ones seem to have something a little suspicious about them.

Yeah. It's really not a good idea to bring a girl (especially a girl who's been cheated on) to an RSD event. It will absolutely read to her like a "fuck lots of girls tour." I think a lot of pick up things tend to lead toward over-education to where you can't see the forest for the trees. This feels like it should be pretty obvious. Not trying to take a jab, but it is just how most women would interpret that, especially one with trauma around that type of thing. But I can also see the neediness in the recent text. You should have told her this in person. You would probably see more of her pain and gotten more out of her emotionally. But with text, she was more able to put on the bitch disguise as a defense. She may have been interested in you before, but then when you brought up the RSD stuff she started projecting ulterior motives onto you from her past experiences. And she started seeing you as a manipulator and player because of her projection. Now, I don't think that's true, as you seem very sincere. But women aren't used to men being sincere in the dating world because everyone's always running game, and she doesn't want to make the same mistake and get retraumatized. Also, when women see a guy that's into RSD or pick up, they might project more power onto them in the situation than they actually have, most of the time. So, they think of you as an Incubus of a guy who has no real emotions and just wants to fuck all the time and plays games to get it. But in reality, you're just a normal guy who's trying to get some success with women... probably from the standpoint of not having much success before you were into RSD. And now you have real feelings for her in a genuine way. But many women, especially those exposed to Tinder and the modern dating scene which is rife with entitled misogynists and fuck boys, won't see it as anything innocent because it feels antagonistic because of their past experiences. Because of this, a lot of women are disillusioned and either think and/or suspect that men aren't actually capable of having real deep feelings, and that it's secretly all about sex. So, a woman deep in the midst of this illusion will probably read your sincerity as a sneaky trick. That's probably why she put on that front about not wanting you for anything else than fucking. Women get that objectifying treatment a lot and get similar things said to them. And since she's assuming that you're treating her that way, she wants to make you feel just as objectified and worthless as she does. She probably did like you originally though. To be honest, she's probably pretty disconnected from the part of her that can genuinely love, and that's why she goes for FWB relationship. I can't imagine the FWB set-up be in any way satisfying to women, who are generally more motivated by the emotional depth of the connection in sex as opposed to the physicality. So, I tend to think most women who engage in those more casual situations are either experimenting with their sexuality, polyamorous, or looking for intimacy without having to go to scarier more emotionally vulnerable parts of themselves. The latter being the most common. So, they settle for company and the physical experience of sex as it's safer than true vulnerability.

What if you built a social media following for you art on Instagram/Twitter/Facebook, and then offered group classes over Zoom or Discord to your followers @ $20-$40 per 1-2 hour class. And if you get 15 people in each class, you'd make $300-$600 just for the amount of time creating the curriculum and the 1-2 hours that you'd be teaching it. You could also offer one-on-one lessons. So, you can do workshops on how to work with certain types of media like acrylics, ceramics, gouache, airbrush, etc.. You can do workshops on how to draw realistically. How to come up with creative ideas for art. etc. Do you feel like you're able to create a solid curriculum and teach and convey what you know and have skills in? If so, there are people out there that will want that service, especially if they enjoy your artwork that they found through social media platforms.

I have been in these situations many times... as the needy one and as the pursued.

Exactly

Men are the purchasers and women are the sales-people in this metaphor. And that's why the insistence that you know is very frustrating. You think you know about women because you've had a handful of interactions with them. But you've never been behind the counter of the store. I've been in this vehicle for 30 years, and been getting male attention for 18 of it. I know a thing or two about it. But you maybe have read a few books, listened to some videos by dudes online, and had a few interactions with women and you think you just know better.

So, probably just totally overlook the more obvious reason that you'd be able to see much more clearly if you weren't so learn-ed about what women want and don't want. Like I said, if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck... then it probably is just a really weird goose with a vocal chord problem. Sounds like a good bet. Also, can you point out the neediness in the text? I literally cannot see it. It just seems like a normal text. Like, he's not writing huge paragraphs or saying anything weird. What are you picking up on, that I am not. And I know what neediness in a man looks like. It's really uncomfortable to be on the receiving end of it. And this would not ping on my radar as needy, AT ALL. Now, if his vibe is needy in person, that's a different story. But none of that's conveyed in the text. Seems pretty normal. I think it's one of those situations like women who think men are not going to be attracted to them because of some small flaw that no man would notice. And they notice it on other women too. For example... imperfect eyebrows. This text is the imperfect eyebrows of texts. Women aren't going to notice anything weird about it. But men are somehow hyper-tuned into it because they've learned to hyper-focus on neediness because of what they've learned and been empowered by. So, everything looks like a nail when you only have a hammer. If any ladies on the forum can help me out here, I'd appreciate it because the guys here are really not believing what I'm saying. What would your impression be if you were FWB with a guy and he took you to an RSD event? Would you think he was interested in anything serious? Also, do you see anything needy about the OP's text? Also, do you think the OP's girlfriend went cold because of the neediness conveyed in the text (and presumably out) or because the guy brought her to an RSD event and didn't make it clear that he's interested in her? Or perhaps some other reason like just wanting an FWB and not anything more serious?

There's like only 10 of these hyper-offended, blue-haired 19 year-olds out there though. They might as well be made up. Ever notice that the only place they seem to pop up in is right wing propaganda, as comical caricatures of the left? But this image gets projected onto people all the time. It makes people nervous to share anything remotely progressive and haults progres. Basically if anyone says anything left of center, they get branded with this unflattering image. And these attack helicopter gender stereotypes of people are treated like they're some huge threat. But look around this forum... how many people like that do you see? Look around at your life. How many people like that do you see? Now look and see how many Red Pill guys there are. And see which group is genuinely more vocal, irrational, and dangerous. The right wing figures do a great job at brand-jamming those on the other side of the aisle, and then making it out like they're the ones whose voices are being suppressed. But the reality of the matter is that they're making a culture that demonizes anything that isn't super right-wing. Watch and you'll notice.

This is exactly what I mean by dick measuring contest. A bunch of smart guys trying to out-smart each other and be the alpha nerd.

I'm generally aware of what RSD teaches. And I'm also aware of what works seduction-wise. You keep projecting that I'm anti-RSD but it's not the case. I'm just telling you how it would be interpreted by most women to be brought to such an event. That should be pretty obvious. Yet you seem to still think it's impossible that she could have been put off by being brought to an RSD event. It's really strange to me that you're not even seeing that as a valid possibility, when it's as simple as 1+1=2. But what I'm saying is that cold approach doesn't really work on most women... it only works on certain women. Most women are not responsive to that unless it's happening in the context of a club where it's expected. All of the traits you mentioned above are universally appealing, but that's not all they teach in RSD. But what I'm talking about are things like cold-approach and techniques like negging and push and pull. These will hook women with certain sensibilities, but won't have an effect on others. But many men take these techniques working for their purposes practically to indicate a truism about all women. But it's really just an indicator that it works on some women. But the RSD guys do a good job of marketing it out as though it works on everyone. They even have that marketing technique where they tell you that women don't know what works on them, and that you should listen to the RSD guys instead. Super evil genius marketing. But the fact that it will work on some women, this is why I said that men try these techniques and get good results, and they take their good results as an indicator that what works practically indicates an absolute truth about women and that all women will respond to it. Neither of those things is true. You can't understand women by understanding what works for practical purposes with them in the dating scene even if you had some surefire techniques that DID work on every woman. And you can't understand women by understanding what works for practical purposes with a fraction of women who will be receptive to things like cold approach, as they won't work on most women. So, no. It doesn't work on everyone. Most women can see men using techniques like I mentioned before from a mile away, as they get it all the time. I want you to realize this is coming from someone who's been cold approached probably a thousand times since I was in middle school like 17 years ago. So, this is coming from someone who's been on the receiving end of it for a long time. Consider that there might be wisdom in what I'm saying. Now, I do generally like the teachings about general self improvement and what works seduction-wise as those work pretty well. I wish more guys knew that. But most of the more pick-up-like techniques are off-putting as most women are so used to it and can smell it from a mile away. I'm sure you've seen pick up demos where the guy gets cold shouldered by a lot of women. This is how most women naturally respond because they're used to avoiding it, and they would avoid it with anyone. So, it doesn't matter how good is game is, he's not going to get with those women. The techniques simply won't work on them. Now, I understand why men must do them, because they have to try with a lot of women before they get to a yes. So, I'd be doing it too if I were a guy. But do understand that your idea that it works on ALL women is false. Women don't fall in love with techniques, they fall in love with men. So, most women don't need or care for cold approach, as they have their eyes set on John at the office who doesn't know they exist. And that guy's definitely not doing any RSD techniques at them. Female attraction doesn't really have a mechanism, other than intuition and chemistry. But one thing I do think is going on is the all the PUA/RSD stuff is a lot like a placebo, at least in part. Men assume that they won't do well with women, so they don't. But once they learn these great techniques, all of a sudden they're getting success. So, the placebo effect of that makes it more comfortable. But it's not really the technique at play that's helping, it's the confidence that the guy gets through employing the technique.

I did pull the numbers out of the air, obviously. But I'm going off of what I've observed of people. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to put together that most people don't like the idea of their significant being with other people. Also, I'm telling you what I know about the experience of being a woman and being friends with other women who are dating and have dated. And one of the major things you have to filter out is guys who are lukewarm and looking only for sex. And you can imagine that a lot of guys who are into pick up are that way. So, it's not something to just overlook like it doesn't mean anything. The fact of the matter is that it might mean something very significant to the guy's viability as a stable partner. So, it's not such a far stretch to put it together that the girl probably went cold after the RSD event because she felt uncomfortable about that. Why wouldn't you think this is probably why she got colder directly after the event? I mean, if it quacks like a duck... it might indeed be a really unusual goose. But chances are, it's a duck. I just don't see why you're putting your bet in on the quacking bird being a goose, when it's a lot less likely. You're missing the most obvious answer because you're falling back on the lens that you've applied in your ventures into dating women, as well as your personal moral compunctions against judging those who are polyamorous. So, you have a mental framework that's getting in the way of you seeing reality as it is. Consider that most people don't have the same level of open-ness about polyamory that you do. And that most women, even if they're okay with others being polyamorous, don't want to be and don't want their partner to be. And on a separate note, even polyamorous people are not okay with cheating. So, even a polyamorous woman might be on guard about a guy bringing her to such an event. Consider the things that are deal-breakers for women in general. Also, keep in mind that RSD and PUA stuff works mostly for finding someone who will go for it. So, you're really learning how to attract a very specific type of woman who's open to cold approach. It's not really women in general that you're attracting. So, if a woman falls outside of that range, the things you've learned and employed will not work on them. So, you're not really getting a clear idea of how women actually work. You're getting an idea of what works for a very specific type of woman, and then taking your success as an indicator of the truth of what you've learned. But from the female perspective, you just look at it and see how inaccurate that paradigm is. It will work for your purposes. But it's not a very effective paradigm for having any kind of depth of understanding into how women in general actually work psychologically and how they actually respond to situations. So, falling back on your knowledge of dating and attracting women is not sufficient to understand female psychology. It's like looking at the flight patterns of a particular type of butterfly to understand the brain structures of butterflies in general. You're working with a very limited, specialized type of practical information to try to understand something that's a lot more complex and only vaguely related. Then, thinking that you understand because you know what kind of works in that very limited context. And you're thinking about how people should think based on your prior knowledge about dating women and your moral code in general, as opposed to the way that most people DO think. So, the mental framework you've created is getting in the way of your awareness of how reality works. Also, none of this had to do with my moral compunctions. It just comes from an intuitive awareness of how people generally function and what would likely put people off. And as a woman, I know that I'd at least be a bit guarded about the RSD thing, and watching for red flags. So, that's probably what she was doing... like most women would. And this is not a projection but an observation of how people generally work.

Many women might find men's primary attraction to their looks a bit offensive as well, but it doesn't make it not so. The fact of the matter is that most women prefer an exclusive relationship. Most men prefer exclusive relationships as well. Maybe you're an exception and you don't mind if your girlfriend sleeps with and dates other men, but most men and women are not oriented this way. So, relative to what I was saying before, you can bet that the OP's partner is probably in the majority. But there are several reasons why this is the case that women prefer exclusivity. Number one, our biology around pair-bonding and a general preference skewing toward depth and stability over excitement that stems from this biology. Number two, there are a lot more consequences on the physical, social, and biological level for women relative to having a non-exclusive partner. Number three, because we don't want to feel disposable, and it weeds out men who aren't very serious and just want a fuckbuddy more than a partner. This is like one of the main things you have to watch out for when you're a woman who's looking into dating. Plus, in my opinion, unless you're just experimenting with your sexuality, there's next to no reason to sleep with a guy if you don't feel a special connection to him, as there's not really a lot of emotional pay off otherwise. The desire for emotional intimacy with that one particular man is the main driver for sexual connection. Also, exclusive relationships feel much more stable, which women tend to value. This makes sense for biological reasons as well, as a stable environment and a committed partner are good for child rearing. That's not to say that polyamorous relationships aren't stable. But if one partner's just out having one-night-stands with a bunch of people or getting romantically involved with a ton of people, it can be a major destabilizing factor. It can also indicate that he has issues with self-control, which is also a major destabilizing factor. So, yes. Most women are going to want a deeper connection to their partner than to their their friends. Not to say that friendships can't be deep, but there's just a different dynamic at play in a romantic relationship that goes beyond just the sex. So, they're not just friends you have sex with. It's something more that that. Perhaps you've not yet experienced that, but one day you might and you'll see what I'm talking about. The level of intimacy is just different. And as a woman, it's not even worth it if that isn't present.

That's good on you. But the reality of the matter is that most men and women don't work that way. They are mostly monogamous and don't like the idea of their partner being with other people. So, you can find 10% of people who are okay with open relationships and polyamory... but 90% will balk at it. That text is super normal. If a guy text me that, I wouldn't think anything of it. Now, if his behavior was otherwise needy, then that's a different story that happened outside of this text. What I got was that she went cold after going to the RSD event... and most women would. Also, I am bisexual but I don't have very much experience with women. But I can tell you, that most women will register the FWB situation coupled with going with a guy to an event that's essentially about meeting, dating, and having sex with women. And many times, the focus is on sleeping with MANY women. Most women don't like that. Most men don't like that. Now, there is that 10% of the population... but the aforementioned woman doesn't seem to be in that 10%.

All audiences will tend to skew one way or another. My audience (as a female spiritual YouTuber) is actually majority male as well... about 2/3 male. And like Leo said, I think it's because of style. But it's also because YouTube is a male-heavy platform... 62% of YouTube watchers are male in general. So, that's very close to the 2/3 that Leo has for an audience. It would be different on Instagram that's a more female-heavy platform. That said, I do think the audience on the forum is probably more like 90/10, as it seems to be a very male dominated space. But if memory serves, it wasn't as much like that to begin with. It was more reflective of Leo's channel audience spread; still fewer women but not as few as now. But this forum becomes a strangely competitive place, where a lot of guys bicker and get in all kinds of dick measuring contests. And there are also quite a few guys on here who are into all that Red Pill/Incel stuff. So, I see why the female population has dwindled quite a bit because all of that is a bit unnerving. But that's not really a Leo problem so much as it is the dark shadow of personal development in general... and particularly masculine personal development. Most people don't get into personal development out of sense of abundance of worth but out of a sense of lack of worth. So, there's a lot of insecurity underpinning the motivations of most people here... including myself from time to time. It's just that it tends to express in a very dick-measuring contest-like kind of way on here. So, you're not wrong that there's something toxic. But it's not really a reflection of the toxicity of the forum itself or Leo or his content. It's just that most people are here for shadowy reasons that they don't even know about.