Emerald

Only if an alien race comes down and starts farming humans for meat and milking them.

Yes, exactly. And it tends to be that the types of animals we consume from factory farms are bred to be domesticated and cannot live in the wild. Like broiler chickens were selectively bred (during a contest that many farmers participated in back in the 50s) to grow extra large to produce more meat. But it's very unhealthy for the broiler chickens. And they don't live very long. And they certainly couldn't live in the wild. It's a little like how we bred pugs to suite human aesthetic tastes. But they have all sorts of health issues because of the selective breeding.

The reason why we have billions (though probably not trillions) of these animals in existence at any given time is because we continuously breed them into existence specifically for the purpose of consumption. So if we imagine a theoretical world where humans totally abstained from all animal agriculture and no one consumed animal products, that means that there would be no profit incentive to breed so many of them into existence. And farmers simply wouldn't breed them. And there are Vegan activists who have framed how we could taper that number down over time while allowing them to live out their lives. I don't recall the specifics of it though because it's been a while since I looked at it.

I'm the only Vegan in my house. I went Vegan after both of my kids were born. But if my husband and I were both Vegan when we had kids, then I'd have probably wanted to raise them Vegan from the get-go. But I would not interfere with the status quo and upend their person sovereignty in those choices. The way that I see it is that I'm able to have a much more positive and long-lasting impact on them by simply modeling the behavior and allowing them to behave in the way they're used to.

Sometimes I feel like this lower vs higher perspective thing (while indicating something that's true in the absolute) can be a way to ignore embodied heart-based wisdom by writing over it with a disconnected intellect-based rationalization that is meant to maintain homeostasis. I notice this can often be a problem on this forum in particular. Everyone's always looking for the superior intellectual framework. But many miss what really matters. And the servant becomes the king and the king the servant. And doing this intellectual trick can be used as a way for a person to hide their embodied heart wisdom from themselves through a series of abstract higher truth intellectualizations. And they can use these higher truth intellectualizations to poke holes in Veganism so that they don't have to become conscious of the incongruence between their actions and their heart-wisdom. And they can maintain the status quo without sensing their cognitive dissonance. And this doesn't just happen with Veganism. I've seen people do it with other harm/suffering related topics as well. But Veganism is a good example to use because most people aren't Vegan. Like if you're a human being and you say "There's a reason for evil to exist because the nature of God is infinity... which includes suffering." or "Morality is relative." These statements are true in the absolute. But people can use these absolute higher truths to rationalize away their heart wisdom. But if we were a cow at slaughter, we would not be able to ignore the heart wisdom. It is only from the armchair of privilege that we can intellectualize with the taken for granted solace that we will not be on the chopping block in this life.

RIP David Lynch. I really enjoyed Twin Peaks. But I also like his other strange ideas... like his show Rabbits. And his book about "Catching the Big Fish" is really helpful for people aspiring to be creative. I read it like 10 years ago or so and it opened me up to new ways of thinking about creativity.

@Leo Gura @Something Funny @yetineti @Malekakisioannis Thank you

Lol. You're super immature with repeat of the sandwich comment. You go make me one. And you literally said "We run you" and "men built everything and you women will have to obey". And "women love it when I scream at them to make me a sandwich." It was really direct and making a clear statement that men are superior to women and that women need to obey men. And you came out the gate with male supremacist narratives. Don't pretend like you were just 'mentioning' traditional gender roles and that my Feminist brain 'blew a gasket' at the mere mention of traditional norms. I was a stay at home mom for about a year after my son was born. And while I'm glad to have spent the extra time with him, I wasn't feeling very fulfilled because it was isolating and non-directional... and the work was constant with no dynamism. So, I felt a lack of meaning in the way my life was structured. But I understand that some women might prefer that dynamic. I certainly wouldn't criticize that choice. It just isn't for me because I need a sense of worldly trajectory in my life. And look back at your posts in this thread. You clearly believe that your culture is superior to Western culture. So, don't pretend like you don't. Like I said to you before... be honest and own your shitty opinions. Don't try to weasel out of them because you realized later on how bad they make you look. And yes, there's a lot of Western imperialism... which is why there are huge disparities in the indexes that the other Western guys were mentioning. We'd all have similar levels of Spiral Dynamics development if imperialist nations (like the US) weren't playing world police and toppling foreign governments to bring "democracy" to the "backwards places". It's similar to how we used to say "bringing civilization to the uncivilized". It's all a narrative to weaken other potential empires and to extract cheap labor and steal resources. But I see now that Leo said that we're supposed to keep the topic on Andrew Tate. So, I'll leave this discussion here.

So you don't like it when people create supremacist narratives, eh? I suppose we have something in common then. But weren't you just spouting off some male supremacist narratives the other day saying 'We're men and we own you and you must obey us because we make society' etc.? Plus, you've spent this whole thread saying how your culture is superior to Western culture. So, I don't really think you have any foot to stand on complaining about supremacist talking points because you fundamentally agree with the notion of supremacy. Your whole worldview is based on it. You agree that there are some cultures that are superior to others. You just don't like it when others do the same thing to you because you think everyone should agree that your culture is superior. And Western culture is your main bug bear because it is perhaps the most diametrically opposed to your own.

Of course she wouldn't be okay with knowing that. It would naturally create a feeling of insecurity with the relationship, and for good reason. Women's sexual instincts are very much wrapped up in creating a stable context to raise a child in, even if the woman isn't interested in having children. So, being with a guy who's not committed will create an intense anxiety once she is attached to that guy. The best thing to do is probably to break it off with her as soon as possible since you're not that into her, as it will free her up to find someone who genuinely wants to be with her instead of leading her on and wasting her time. Also, if you actually have real feelings for a woman (not just surface level attraction), you won't want to leave her for someone who's theoretically better. The main issue here is that you may not have actually had real feelings for a woman before. So, you may not know what that feels like yet. So, you're approaching women as fungible and something to level up with. And this will create a really anxiety-provoking relationship dynamic for the woman because she will see you as non-fungible but you will see her as fungible and as something to trade out for a better model. And if she's attached to you and hasn't learned to differentiate between men that are really into her and men who are sleeping with her and spending time with her, she may waste a lot of time anxiously trying to keep you and convince you to care about her. So, my recommendation is to break up with her.

Yes, I'm in a relationship. I don't feel like this tendency comes from trauma with bad men... though my first relationship from age 16-20 was terrible. But I'm not angry at him. I just feel bad for him. I suspect he has BPD. And he wasn't a misogynistic guy or a cheater or anything... he was just self-destructive and that self-destruction eventually became something that was really dragging down the quality of my life. And on the last day of our relationship, he threatened to hurt me and kill me... which he'd never done before. So, that was how that ended. That one was a really traumatic relationship that went on 3.5 years longer than it should have. But otherwise, my experiences with men have been primarily positive. But that's been because I'm pretty good at discerning which men to keep away from me. (and people in general) I just really cannot stand all these men's movements because they aggravate and step on the wounds that women collectively have. And it really creates a lot of fear and unsafely and anger and all sorts of other emotions. Plus, it's warping into all the political ideologies that are threatening to encroach upon my rights and freedoms. So, I find it very upsetting and disempowering. And it's difficult to not get too upset at an individual man who's like this. But I notice that when I'm on here talking about anything about my experiences with being female, I don't feel like people are open to understanding me because I'm a woman talking about the female experience. So, I tend to want to share my more polarizing feelings and perspectives in a way that's more judgmental to agitate a bit and to evoke emotions that could unsteady people and cause them to doubt or to question their narratives. This is something I don't really do it other contexts. But this is a forum where people mostly shout their options at others. So, I feel like there's something that's verging on a kind of catharsis as I tend to keep my judgments to myself as I don't really have a context to release all the feelings I have about all this crazy manosphere stuff that's all over the place. But I can also set that totally to the side and fully see the vulnerabilities that make all of that run. But when I do that, I am not able to be in touch with my own vulnerability and anger. So, I treat this as my place where I get to be a bit combative and polarizing when I'm typically doing the opposite. But in honestly, I've found that having these sorting mechanisms have served me pretty well. Sorting is the most important skill a woman can develop as it pertains to developing a healthy social circle and getting into a relationship with a healthy and compatible partner. So, that's something that's more of a background mechanism that I don't even have to think about it.

Number one, I don't do it consciously. And I'm in a relationship, so I'm not looking for a partner. Now, it's more of a friendship sorting thing. I just don't feel comfortable around guys who think that way. So, I don't spend time around them. It's not even something that I'm very tuned into why I'm doing it. It's just a visceral feeling of discomfort and moving away from the source of the discomfort. But it's something you learn to do as a woman because it makes your life a lot better. It may seem distasteful to talk about so candidly, but it just is what it is. And if a man cannot understand why I feel that way, then he's probably not the best person to be friends with either because he won't be a safe person to express those feelings to.

Nah. If you were a straight woman, you'd still like men. You would just be a lot more selective about the men you spend time around. And you'd weed out men who gave off that vibe because you'd have developed the spidey sense for it. If you didn't see Andrew Tate's toxicity the first time you decided to go out on a date with him... you'd definitely see it in all similar men thereafter. It's all part of living and learning... and developing a more refined sense of disgust.

That's exactly what I mean. Only, I don't have much of a judgmental thought process towards it in the moment. It's more just picking up on a vibe that doesn't mix well with me and feeling repelled by it. It's more visceral. When a guy holds misogynistic views (which vary by matter of degree) or he's been in spaces like that, you can sense it on their energy. And it doesn't feel good to be around them. It's like a cold bitter metallic energy mixed with isolation and shame. That's the only way I can describe it. It comes through the pores somehow. And there tends to be a spectrum of it. I can sense when guy has a touch of it. And I can sense when a guy has a lot of it. I don't think I'm unique in this. People are actually really good at picking up on vibes... and that's especially true for women. That said, if a woman has certain familial patterns, she may find herself attracted to these vibes. So, even women who go for these guys are quite attuned. But what many women would be repelled by, she is attracted by because of the events of her past.

I recognize that I'm atypical with regard to your metaphor about animal torture and phones and clothing. My point was to say that your metaphor doesn't work for me. But I am NOT atypical AT ALL in sensing and feeling repelled by Red Pill-ish guys. I know that a lot of women are very attuned to these male patterns as the awareness of them is pretty mainstream among women in their 20s. Lots of women joking in YouTube videos about asking probing questions on a first date to vet for these kinds of ideologies. I sense that you underestimate how intuitive the average woman is with regard to picking up on subtle tells about a person. And I wish I could describe the vibe in words because I can tell you misunderstand entirely what I mean by the vibe. You seem to be thinking of it as being some over social ineptitude. But it isn't that most of the time. It's very subtle. It's like you're drinking a sweet drink but the aftertaste is bitter. And that's the type of subtle vibes that socially adept guys are that give off these vibes. It's not very easily masked.

I just know that I notice it right away. There's a vibe that doesn't lie. It's like a perfume of the personality. I can smell it on them straight away. So, it's not a lefty talking point. It's just immediately evident in facial expressions, gestures, vibes, words, and actions if a guy has some misogynistic/Red Pill/Incel kind of stuff going on. And it isn't necessarily social ineptitude that I'm picking up on, though these ideologies can grow from and exacerbate social issues. From my subjective perspective, it's just hints of his underlying ideological framework and feelings about women that I can intuitively sense and that little glimpses come through. People tend to give themselves away in the first 5 minutes... even in rare instances where people try to mask it for fear of being picked up on and evoking a negative reaction. I just know what I notice and the feeling of being repelled. And I'm positive that I'm not a minority of one. I think 25% is a decent estimate of the percentage of Millennial and Gen Z women would relate to what I'm saying. Though, women over 45 might not be quite as attuned to it because they haven't been as affected by these movements or aware of them as women in their childbearing years in the age of internet misogyny movements.

You underestimate the degree of desire that I have to live my life with a sense of integrity with my own values... and how clear and present those inconsistencies are for me when I find myself unable to live up to that aspiration. I do think about these things all the time. And I do my best to make purchases that sit well with my internal compass... though I do so imperfectly. I've only had two iPhones in my life. I've been using the same one since 2018 or 2019 and I plan to keep it until it doesn't work anymore. The one I got before that, I got in 2011... and it crapped out on me in 2018, so I had to get a new one. And I don't buy new clothes or shoes that very often. And when I do, half of the time I secondhand stores to get my clothes. And I have a plan to sew all of my clothes from sustainably sourced material in the future, once I free up more time in my schedule. But this diverges from the idea you're talking about. It's actually MORE "expensive" to not sort for these qualities. You pay for it later in peace of mind. With the choice of male friends and partners... I am aware of these problem dynamics in the same way that I'm aware of all the issues. It's un-ignorable. The vibes don't lie. And it's easy to avoid without even having to put much conscious thought into it. Sometimes, I think you forget that women tend to be more sensitized to their own feelings and the feelings and vibes of others. I suspect you'll say something like 'women don't select based on those things.' But I know that I do.... right at the outset before any charm can happen. I know that (if I were single) I could fall in love over time with any guy I have chemistry with. And that doesn't preclude guys with misogynistic mindsets. So, why would I choose to be around a guy who has those problematic mindsets, when it's super obvious from the jump? You seem not to realize that there are so many subtle and over tells that are very obvious.

To be clear, I do also understand that these patterns come from somewhere. Most of the men that are caught up in these problem patterns are dealing with shame and disconnection... and looking to Red Pill or Incel communities to try to soothe those feelings. And this is also where misogyny comes from. And I find it quite easy to switch into a detached mode where I can find compassion and understanding towards individuals that are caught up in the dynamic, But from a practical boundaries perspective, it just doesn't feel comfortable or safe being around guys who are in this pattern. And there's so much negative that's happening as a result of these collective patterns, there's also feelings of anger and powerlessness. The guys in these ideologies have a tendency to project.... and because of their lack of attunement they tend to step all over ancient wounds that they're totally unaware of. And they create real political and social problems for women because they are swept up in their ideologies. So, it can feel really upsetting to be around guys who are in this energy because they do often accidentally tread on exposed nerves. And even if I don't show a reaction to it, it does repel me. And because I have no sense of scarcity of belonging, I just opt to spend time around men and women who aren't caught up in these patterns. And it's not a very active thing to sort these guys from my social circle. It's easy to avoid because it's easy to sense in someone's vibe. But part of my sharing this is to share how a lot of women are likely responding to noticing these patterns. There's a lot of disgust that a lot of women feel about these ideological patterns or male behavior. It just is what it is.

I would imagine so. If a woman (or man) is selecting for who will produce a roller coaster of emotions with anxiety, it's not a good platform to make a life from and raise children from. If it's exciting past the first 3 months, something has gone terribly wrong with the relationship. A healthy relationship is like a stable home base that you can rest in. So, men and women who are looking mostly for excitement either don't tend to settle and become parents... by choice. And I think that's an okay choice to make for some people. Or they end up having a child and creating a chaotic home environment for the child to grow up in because the parents want to maintain the emotional roller coaster. And that's not optimal from a survival and reproduction standpoint... even if the "toxic pick-up guys" might have 5 children with 5 different women. That isn't an evolutionary winning strategy... because it creates more trauma, drama, and issues... and detracts from our collective survival imperatives. So, if a woman is selecting for toxic pick-up guys who are sleeping with 3 women a week, then that's not a very good strategy if her desire is to have a settled committed relationship... and it's especially not a very good strategy if she wants children. If you want to have what the relationship dynamic that most women want, you must consciously select for things like stability, compatibility, maturity, loyalty, honesty, friendship capacity, etc. Otherwise, your life will be needlessly full of drama. And it seems to me that half or more of women are pretty good at selecting for this. But probably 30-40% of women are more drawn to the ups and downs and excitement of the new partner... and feeling off balance. And trying to squeeze blood from a stone trying to get the player guy to love her. And I sense it has a lot to do with self-esteem issues. But it also takes a learning curve to pick up on "player vibes". I was about 15 when I became conscious of them, and I felt naturally repelled by those vibes. But when I was 13 or 14, I could have fallen for one because I wasn't yet attuned to those vibes. But some may take a bit longer to become conscious of those vibes. And it might take some healing of self-esteem issues to start feeling an intuitive sense of disgust towards those vibes. You have to really build your intuition and relationship with disgust to select a partner wisely.

Keep in mind, I am Vegan. So using the "Would you eat an animal that I tortured?" example to illustrate your point doesn't work because I genuinely would not as I have already become aware of that. I'm very conscious that the little packages of meat come from animal torture. And I know quite a lot of people who are also conscious of this and adjust their behaviors thusly. That said, only 1% of people are Vegan. But I'm positive that at least 25% of women are attuned and sensitized to this kind of fuckery.... because it's EVERYWHERE! And I can spot a guy who's into Red Pill ideologies from a mile away because of how they think and behave. It's really obvious. And they have a very specific vibe. So my point is not really about pick-up per se... but rather guys with Red Pillish Incelish attitudes more generally. Though pick-up guys also exude some similar vibes. You can just sense intuitively when guys have these regressive attitudes. And there are ALWAYS tells... even subtle gestures and facial expressions give them away. Give me 2 minutes with a guy and I can tell you the ideologies he's operating off of. Same thing with women too. People are pretty easy to read. It doesn't mean that I'm immune to charm. But if it takes me 2 minutes to clock a guy... and 2 weeks to be properly charmed to where I start to develop feelings... then it's easy to dodge that bullet. You just avoid interacting with them. So, a woman who's aware of these patterns will notice these things from the jump and may just opt to avoid guys that give off those vibes or show tells that they have these ideas. My main point is that women who are open to being picked up might not be as aware of these problematic perspectives. You'd have to be living under a rock now-a-days to not know that a guy who's cold approaching you in the grocery store is probably operating off of some "get good with women" playbook. And even that gives a hint that he might be into problematic ideologies... as half or more of men are.

I've noticed that most guys who are Red Pill or Black Pill are not very socially adept. The toxic pick-up artist is the exception, though he will also be repulsive to the majority of women who aren't swayed by pick up artists and who have a spidey sense about it. Now, you may not see this selection bias at play, because you're going out with women who you meet through pick-up and who respond to pick-up. So, 100% of the examples you see are of women responding in a positive way to pick up. And women who are more open to meeting a guy outside of their well-traveled social networks, might not have as many filters as a woman who doesn't respond to pick up and might instead prefer to select from their social circle and broader social network. And that might not expose you to a variety of different female perspectives on dating and relationships. You might be simply choosing from a pool of 30% of the female population that's open to theoretically being picked up by a man. But because you're getting the some successes and some failures, you might be thinking that the ones that reject you are rejecting you because of something about you... when in reality they may just be closed off to meeting guys that way. And while toxic pick-up guys are probably having the most sex (especially with women who are open to pick-up), they aren't necessarily settling into families and becoming present fathers. And that's far more of an indicator of what the average woman is looking for. And it seems to me that half or more of women are pretty good at selecting for that... or they eventually get to that point after they get past college age. And I know that I've developed a spidy sense for picking up on if a guy has problematic views on women over the past 10 years or so because of understanding more about how many men are operating from these viewpoints. And I'm not even single. If I were single and dating and looking for a life partner, I'd be super vigilant for any and all hints of problematic mindsets that could bring harm to me. And like everyone else, I do choose my social circle in ways that are more comfortable for me. That's pretty natural. So, I don't have a lot of those guys around because it makes me feel uncomfortable. And it's pretty easy to pick up on the vibe of a guy who's operating that way. And if the vibe doesn't give it away, he'll say something that's a tell in pretty short order. And I know there are a lot of Gen Z women who are extra sensitized to these dynamics as well because of certain perspectives and patterns that are growing in popularity on social media. So, you may not be experiencing it. But it seems to be a pattern that's emerging with women's response to the exposure to all this overt misogyny that the internet has revealed to us. And I'm not 100% sure that it's for the reasons I mentioned. But it would be some incredibly intelligent nature feedback loop where, if we need to progress forward to survive global issues like climate change and become more fit to the environment as a species... that 1. The population would have to shrink and 2. The men with a certain physiology/psychology that predisposes them to have a regressive effect on society might have a harder time passing on their genes. Survival and reproduction is all about being the most fit to the environment, after all. But that's just a hypothesis. And it might be just a coincidence. Though I haven't ruled it out entirely as there could be very complex connections between the human individual mind/body complex, wider macrocosmic social dynamics, human being's psychological and behavioral responses to those macrocosmic social dynamics, and cycles of nature.

The fact of the matter is that these ideologies are dangerous in multiple ways to women. And they represent a real political and relationship threat to us. I know that I tend to feel quite uncomfortable around men who hold these types of ideologies. Where 10+ years ago, I wouldn't have been as aware of these issues. But the past 10 years have really sensitized me to these patterns. So, it stands to reason that it's probably a lot of women who feel have developed the same type of sensitivity. But it's not a matter of hatred but moreso of preservation of one's own sovereignty and well-being. You just can't have a good life with a man who operates off of Red Pill ideologies. Lots of women are aware of that, and will tend to just avoid guys that show signs of that.

I have toyed with the idea that certain societally harmful traits are being weeded out of the gene pool through all these Red Pill and Incel movements coming more prominently into the collective consciousness. And women who are and will be of child-bearing age are more aware of these patterns in men more than any other generation of women has ever been... just because of social media and being able to read everyone's private thoughts. And these manosphere movements and the anonymity of the internet have really amplified those socially degenerative voices that were more "only in his head" or "only talking with my buddies at the bar" voices 15+ years ago. But now it speaks through a megaphone because there's so much coalescence of movements around them... And about 10 years later, guys are struggling more with finding partners and the birth rate is declining. I'm sure the latter fact is for other reasons as well. But part of me suspects that women's increased awareness of the dysfunctional ways that a sizable minority of men operate under make contemporary women a lot more cautious than women of previous generations when selecting for a partner.

That's only because the consumption of dairy past infancy (and from another species) is only something that humans do. So, both Vegetarianism and the standard Omnivorous diet aren't found in nature. That said, it doesn't mean that human beings are able to consume these diets. Humanity is also part of nature. And our nature is different from the nature of other species. So, the notion of something "natural" being synonymous with "good for you" isn't scientifically sound. You actually have to look at meta-analyses that cross-reference many studies on how different diets tend to impact human beings to find out the optimal diet for human beings.

What if the overlords of society come up with something that you don't like personally? Are you still going to follow this state religion?