Emerald

This post isn't actually about attracting women. So, pickup advice isn't going to help in this case. In fact, many of the posts on this section of the forum can't be helped with generic pickup advice. But there are plenty of practical techniques that men can use to attract women, which can be used without extrapolating skewed narratives about women to go along with them. But what tends to happen is that Leo and others find what works and want to weave that together with a certain ideological understanding of gender to create a narrative of certainty. They are trying to have the illusion that they "know thy enemy" better than the enemy knows themselves. So, they become blinkered and attached. And my issue has never been about the practical techniques. I never once said to abstain from doing what works. People get onto me about that. But it's just that what I'm saying is challenging comforting but false narratives, so the strawman of my perspective is that I'm against what's practical. And they can use that to say to themselves that my that my perspective is nonsense and that I'm out of touch. But it's all about maintaining the comfort of certainty and simplicity that the false narratives give the illusion of providing. That way they can keep looking to what works practically as evidence that they should continue believing their ideological narratives as absolute truth. So, my issue with it is myopia and paradigm lock... and the fact that men get really brainwashed into these narratives to where they aren't open to understanding anything new. And they become wrapped up in their own story so much that they lose sight of what's real and how human dynamics really operate. And this ends up biting them in ways that they don't consciously perceive yet suffer great from.

I do agree with that, but I don't negate the things that Leo's saying about the practicalities of approaching women. It's just the narratives that go along with those practical steps that I have the biggest issue with, because that's where the misrepresentation comes into play. So, I see my perspective as integrating his practical perspective and easily reconciled with it... as long as the false narratives aren't woven around it. I'd probably suggest for men to do similar things practically. I just wouldn't frame it through these skewed narratives. I even talked about the two phases of the relationship myself... attraction phase vs relationship phase.

Describe these experiences.

Sure, there are lots of women who project things onto men as well. And it comes from a dearth of understanding parading itself as a wealth of understanding. But there definitely is a power struggle going on too that's even breaking into mainstream politics. You just might not be experiencing it because you are neither a woman nor the type of man who is trying to take away women's power and agency. It doesn't take much searching around on the internet to find sizable swaths of men who are arguing that women shouldn't have the right to vote... or engaging in narratives that imply that women should be the property of men. It's literally everywhere. And it's really scary to experience as a woman because large groups of stupid people have political power. And it does call for extra layers of discrimination with regard to male friends and partners. That said, there are lots of narratives that crop up that try to naturalize things that say "Oppression and violence are part of men's nature." And when that type of thing is believed, it gets in the way of opening up to friendships and relationships with men.. most of whom are just looking for the same kinds of things that all human beings are looking for.

I'm not specifically responding to anything he said here on this post prior to our conversation about misrepresentation of women's perspectives. I've just been on this forum on-and-off for the past 8 years or so. So, I know his perspectives about this topic, and I can see that he's quite attached to them. And it tends towards an over-simplification that comes from his time learning pick up a decade or so ago. And women call him out frequently for the over-simplification and misrepresentation. But I just makes him dig his heals in further. Consider this... If there was a world full of women that were saying things about men's way of operating that you knew weren't painting an accurate picture, you'd also try to correct the record. And if those same women had the idea "Men are deluded on this topic. Don't listen to them." You'd also be frustrated because they'd be shut off to hearing about what's actually true. And you might not want to get involved romantically with women who operate off of this framework because they won't be able to see you... and it would be an impediment to intimacy... as they believe they already understand you better than you understand yourself. And there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. So, the only option is to fruitless fight to be seen and hear... or just disengage and find another woman who isn't so bogged down in these narratives. That's the issue with the attachment to these frameworks. They feel like a solution to the problem of interacting with women... but they're actually an impediment.

Narratives like the one the OP was talking about are largely archetypal narratives that represent a man's relationship to the his Anima (the Feminine side). So, a lot of these devouring dominating pedestalled woman narratives have always been alive in the male psyche as a representation of his resistance to his Feminine side and desire for integration with his Feminine side all in one. This has largely been as a result of societal adaptations that cause men to have to go into opposition to their own Feminine side... which has been necessary up until very recently in human history. And all of this resistance and disintegration with the Feminine gets projected out onto the romantic connections with women. So, it looks like a dating issue... but is really more about the internal. And 10 years ago, things broke open in terms of online Manosphere groups that utilize and amplify these narratives... so now they are coming into the light of consciousness when they've been more of a private inner torment in millennia past. And it's good that this collective Shadow is coming into the light of consciousness. But it's also got a lot of problematic manifestations that are corralling lots of vulnerable young guys into these narratives that make it harder for them to have functional relationships with women. It's kind of like how horror movies have interacted with our natural instinct toward fear. The fear of the dark had always been there for millennia. But now we have cinema monsters to project into the darkness. And the narratives that manosphere influencers create do the same thing as the horror movies. They put a clearer form to an ancient archetypal inner struggle. So, with the internet and the coalescence of men who deal with similar struggles, there's an amplification of what always was but was grappled with privately. And with Leo, it's a mixture of facts and narrative. And the narrative parts are still about the struggle with the inner and outer Feminine. So, there is a desire to protect one's self from the Anima by being able to reduce it down through a series of easily understandable reductive viewpoints and projections of certainty. And this is why there is a myopia and an attachment to one single lens. But in general, these narratives are either wound-tonguing narratives that are designed to trigger and aggravate the inner struggles. (like the narrative the OP was responding to) Or they're compensatory narratives to give a sense of power and control over the inner struggle. (like Leo's tendency to simplify things down to gain a sense of knowing and expertise... and that he's tamed the beast of uncertainty)

That's the thing. There's a stuckness and unwillingness to learn and go deeper on this topic. So, all the narratives are over-simplified and seem to create bigger problems than what they solve. But I'm sure that if Leo and I went down a list about it, I'd agree with certain things. I'm not in resistance to any given insight from him. And I probably operate off of many of the same understandings. It's more about the overt stuckness and unwillingness to question his assumptions about things and open up to new knowledge. It's a protective stance that's specifically against hearing viewpoints that might open him up to more uncertainty in this field. And he doesn't see the value that these perspectives from women can bring to men who are caught up in scary and false narratives about women's nature.

Leo does. That was addressed to him. I haven't read your posts.

I'm not explaining attraction at all in this thread. I have not spoken one single word about what women are attracted to at all. And I have not said "Be more emotionally intelligent to attract women." That's your straw man. Some women will be attracted to that and others won't. What I'm saying is that there's a problem with using myopic over-simplified narratives to understand female sexuality as it creates paradigm lock. And projections from that paradigm lock creates problems with women down the line that feel right now like solutions. And it blocks men from actually gaining wisdom in this area of life because the cup is already full and nothing more can be poured into it. And as a woman, I can see how it's practical but also leading to false conjectures... that lead to worse relationships with women down the line. And I'm adamant about this because I've seen these skewed narratives floating around for a decade, and they are doing more harm than good by a mile.

The post from the OP isn't really about struggling to get a girlfriend. That's just a symptom. So, that kind of advice won't be very helpful to the OP in this instance. This issue is that every single thread on this subform becomes about how to attract women because "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail." But that doesn't seem to be the OP's problem as he already said women are interested in him when he pulls away more than when he's available. So presumably, he is having these push/pull experiences in his dating life. And part of it seems like he might be anxious and attracting and being attracted to more avoidant partners. So, attracting women isn't the real problem he's dealing with. The post is actually about the OP fearing that he will never truly be loved by a woman for who he is... and that bad boys are the only one who get loved by women. So, my advice to the OP would be to explore what would be so bad about if it were true that women only get into relationships to emasculate men and that women only like bad boys. And that will reveal to him the origin points of his own fears that are getting transferred out onto these false narratives. And it would help him learn more about himself and turn inward towards the root cause of the feelings of fear, shame, and disconnection... instead of looking outward to scary manosphere narratives about women that predatory grifters come up with to manipulate men (and as a side note, the grifters cement their predatory narratives by conveniently saying women can't provide any valuable counter-argument to such claims because women are deluded about their own desires.) So, my advice to him would be to recognize that he doesn't know how women are operating and that in the dearth of knowledge, women are becoming a convenient projection screen for these wounds and narratives to be projected upon. And to turn inwards towards his real fears.

First off, I already said this post isn't asking advice about how to get better with women. This is a post about the OP feeling a fear that he can't be loved by a woman because of misunderstandings about women's nature. But really it's about creating a narrative to tongue the wounds around deeper feelings of shame and unworthiness. And that deeper feeling of unworthiness expresses itself through a false male-created narrative about women that could be dispelled if he really understood how women actually feel about men... and not just the skewed narratives men weave about how women feel about men. And you keep trying to give generic attraction advice to men who are struggling with something deeper that is only tangentially related to the topic of becoming attractive to women. And you're also missing altogether the thing that I'm saying. I'm not saying that you're totally incorrect and that you have nothing valuable to say on the topic. And I'm not saying to throw out what works practically. I'm sure if we went down the list thing by thing, I'd find quite a lot that I'd agree with. But it's not about any one specific belief you're holding. It's about the fixation on a very specific male-created narrative that paints the picture of a false reality that feels very real and evident from men's perspective, but that doesn't actually exist in real life because you're not being holistic in your way of thinking about this topic. And a big part of that is that you neglect the social, emotional, and psychological realties and hyper-focus on biological realities, which creates a simpler paradigm of value with very little nuance. And you're very attached to looking at women and human relationships from one very specific reductive angle that presents a skewed vision of reality woven in with kernels of truth, and you hold onto it tightly like a security blanket because you've found something that feels like it works and gives you a sense that you can tie it up in a neat box. And you're very attached to your sense of certainty about this topic and lack intellectual curiosity about it. But you don't see the ways it's backfiring on you and holding you back at the same time to view women and relationships this way. And you don't recognize that you're missing a lot of wisdom on this topic, yet presenting yourself as an expert. And your results are not what most men want now or will want in the future. And when men believe they can't learning anything valuable about women from women, this causes a lot of problems for men as it creates ideological blocks to real intimacy and understanding.... which is the bedrock of a functional relationship.

There's nothing Leo is saying that's difficult to understand. It's just reductive and reinforces false narratives. It's ideology in disguise as reason.

Exactly. And as a word of warning to others about these hard-headed advice-giving guys and in general... don't take advice from anyone who doesn't already have the results that you want to achieve. Don't take advice about how to become a millionaire from someone who isn't already a millionaire. Don't take advice on how to fly a plane from someone who isn't already a pilot. And don't take advice about how to have a relationship with a woman from someone who doesn't already have the kind of relationship you want to have... or that you may one day want to have. You'll end up having to unlearn so many things, which is a lot more difficult once those ideas are already imbedded.

Cassandra here.... You may not recognize this, but I am SPECIFICALLY trying to serve the guy who's asking... and other men who are caught up in similar narratives by challenging the frameworks that men are taught and conditioned to hold about women by a myriad of sources. That's why I'm always getting onto you about this kind of thing. And this is where you seem to have the biggest blindspots and lack the most wisdom because of your paradigm lock in this area. You seem to be adamant about only looking from this one over-simplified angle, and you're very protective of this one angle. And what's most frustrating is that you're certain that this is the ONLY angle that men will benefit from, when it's pretty obvious that the exact opposite thing is true. And after 10 years of these kinds of narratives circulating and being followed like a religion and being used as a means to grift on vulnerable young men, you should realize by now that it's feeding into the same shame narratives and doing more harm than good. And in most areas, you're quite capable of being multi-perspectival. But you're very attached and refuse to question or expand your paradigm around this topic. And all you have is a hammer, and so everything starts looking like a nail. And I've witnessed you often offering the wrong medicine to these guys because you can't differentiate between the symptom and the germ. If you pay attention closer to the post by the OP, this core of this thread isn't really about attracting women at all. That's just a symptom of a deeper root cause. And even if he became Casanova who knows how to push all the right buttons for every woman on the planet, he's still going to be struggling with the same issue.... which is shame and the fear that he can never be loved as he is. And getting caught up in these over-simplified narratives and solutions that you're proposing only aggravates the wound. It's like offering Tylenol to help cure Malaria.

The issue is that you often get the dynamics incorrect and you spread misinformation without realizing that you're spreading misinformation... because you believe that women are just kidding themselves or that it would be 'too painful to face the truth.' And this causes you to block out real female perspectives in favor of something that's reductive but has the facade of being objective and scientific. But you're operating off of a paradigm that decenters human psychological, emotionally, and social dynamics and reduces it down to pure biology and survival (which often is bro-sciency and presumptive). And you may not realize that you're operating ideologically about female sexuality because it has a practical and scientific veneer to it. But if you're honest with yourself, you'll notice that you're holding onto your perspective defensively to maintain a certain worldview as it pertains to women, men, dating, and relationships. And it causes you to negate and block out a lot of wisdom in this area. And it also just feeds a lot of misinformation and false narratives about women that a lot of guys are already really caught up in and suffering because of. So, it's really doing the young men in your audience a disservice as your perspective won't lead them to functional relationships. I just wish you'd realize that this is a topic that you're not very well informed about and be little more humble and open to those who are more knowledgable about it.

Recognize that this is just what you fear to be true... but not what's actually true. These types of videos are specifically trying to farm engagement by telling men that their biggest fears about women are true. But if you look around you, you will see that it's not true at all. You just fear that it's true because it activates your pre-existing shame wounds. And you can't have a healthy functional relationship if you're operating in a toxic way. But if there's a woman with abandonment trauma, being cold and distant will trigger that trauma wound and she's start going into her own trauma cycle to try to keep you. But she'd only be projecting her relationship with her parents onto you. And you wouldn't want a relationship based off of that type of manipulation tactic in the first place. You shouldn't have to play games if the person is really a good fit for you. And in terms of biology, there are two different hormonal dynamics that are associated with the different phases of a relationship. In the first phase, it's all about those exciting crushy feelings which is facilitated by a mixture of norepinephrine, dopamine, phenylethylamine, oestrogen and testosterone. That's the first 3 months of the relationship, and it creates all these hot and spicy feelings. But this cocktail of emotions dies out in a few months, if it's a healthy relationship. If it's unhealthy, the excitement will stay because there's so much anxiety and uncertainty. But if it's a healthy relationship, that hormonal cycle will subside in a few months. And then, the hormone oxytocin will take its place, which is responsible for bonding. And it's very calm and cuddly feeling... and it's less exciting but even more addictive than the previous cocktail of emotions. And this facilitates the deeper bonding of a relationship. But the addictiveness can wear off if the relationship lacks intimacy and affection... which is what happens if partners behave in a cold way.

Haha. Definitely a canon experience. I remember once, during the summer between 5th and 6th grade, I was in this summer day camp. And we went to the roller skating rink once a week. And there were these three girls at the skating rink who were a little trio of popular girls. And they didn't go to elementary school with me, so I think they were trying to invite me into their popular girls clubs so that there could be four of them... to pretend to be like the squad of popular girls in this one teen movie... the name of the movie escapes me. (It's not Mean Girls. This was a 90s movie.) They had all these rules for hanging out with them like daily shaving and not eating in public. And a couple years later when I saw the movie, I was like "Oh!!! That's what they were imitating." But one thing these 11 year girls would do, was to always be conspicuously adjusting their bras and glancing back and forth at one another. And they'd be asking me if I had started my period and if I wore a bra (which I hadn't and didn't at the time) but lied about the period thing, which became a tangled web. I'm bad at lying. I was really intimidated by them. But looking back, they were just being a bunch of silly gooses, imitating that movie and trying to be grown up.

I know a lot of women have aversion and shame towards their period. And of course many experience a lot of pain and discomfort, which is a different topic. And that would make it very difficult to accept and find positivity in. I recall in elementary school that many girls dreaded getting it. And when we were learning about it, I remember one teacher framing it as as unpleasant and nasty feeling that you have to just get through and practice good hygiene with. But I was SUPER excited to get my period when I was a girl. I remember being in Girl Scouts when I was 9, and I had a Girl Scout manual that talked about a lot of life skills and stuff like that. And one of the pages was talking about the period in a really matter of fact medical way. And I'd hide in my closet like I was looking at a Playboy and read that page over and over and over again. And I was really excited to get my period because I knew it was associated with growing breasts. And I thought it would be like an instant thing... like the bleeding is the thing that's causing the breasts to develop. So, I was excited for that. Part of it was just that I wanted to look like a Spice Girl and wear all the cool outfits. The other part was that I really wanted to be attractive to boys. I was very romantically precocious and had crushes since I was 3 years old, but never had a boy reciprocate my feelings. (Side tangent: I remember being 5 years old and thinking that all of my peers were already dating and kissing but they didn't like me because I was ugly and had no breasts. And that no one would ever want to kiss me or marry me. So, if an old ugly bald mean man wanted to marry me at the age of 5, I'd have to say yes because that would be my only chance. And I'd see all these movies where men are approaching women and that the women are being sought after. And I was thinking, "This must be one of those make-believe movie things... because in real life, it's always the girls that like the boys and not the other way around.") But once I learned about the period, I saw it as a means through which I could possibly have my romantic feelings reciprocated because I'd have breasts and breasts are attractive. So, there was an association with the period and female sexuality and attractiveness... which was always of interest to me because of my romantic precociousness. Nowadays, it's just the status quo. And it doesn't hurt too bad for me. And it doesn't really mess with my mood. So, I don't really have an issue with it. I can tend to romanticize things that pertain to having a female body from a sexual and a nature-cycles perspective, including the period if I'm in the right headspace. But most of the time, I just relate to it like any other function of my body.

Haha. It could very well be that. But I think it's just the Wilkins genes in general that are strong. We're all a bunch of brown-haired, dimple-faced people with round eyes.

I skimmed through your message a couple hours ago and read the body of what your wrote as you sharing your perspective on relationships when you'd said I don't respond to your messages because you and the other guy was like "How is Emerald and Princess Arabia going to respond." So, I see in looking back you were driving it to a different point at the end. But I'm still not entirely sure that you aren't trying to make some of the points that you've labeled "relative reality." Is it your perspective that those things aren't true? Or is it your perspective that they are relatively true, but that they're not absolutely true? If it's the latter, you're going to be struggling with having functional interactions and relationships with your female peers.

I don't know what else to say, other than good luck finding a functional relationship with that paradigm.

I'm not specifically avoiding responding to you.

That's not my experience. I only shifted further left as I've had kids. And I've been working since a month after my 16th birthday.

I'm a big old lefty with two kids

I have two