actualized3434

@Shanmugam thanks... good to know

Here, Osho is saying something totally opposite : "Once in a while it has happened that way, but such events are very rare -- as good as non-existent -- that a person has died immediately upon becoming enlightened. It would be as if someone was already a skeleton, there was nothing at all of any accumulation, and the person died the very first day he fasted. It would mean that such a person was just ready to die, he had no savings at all. But it is difficult to find such a person; even a hungry beggar's body keeps savings, some accumulated stock necessary for any emergencies. Such a coincidence may happen sometime that a person's actions also come to completion at the same moment as enlightenment. It is, however, a very rare phenomenon. Normally they have stayed and lived for many years after enlightenment -- be it Buddha or Mahavira or someone else. What is the reason for continuing to live? -- because liberation has already happened. It is the burden of past action, its momentum, that goes on pushing the body ahead on the journey for some time. When that momentum is dissipated, jeevanamukti, the liberation while living, will become mahanirvana." - Finger Pointing to the Moon - Osho

I have some questions.. How are enlightenment and experience connected? The moment you get enlightened, will that be an experience? Does some kind of experience accompany the moment of realization? How does enlightenment change the experience?

How did you come to know about this whole thing? At some point in life, you should have read a book, article, watched a video or talked to a friend who told you about enlightenment and that it is a way out of suffering.. How did it happen? I came to know about it after watching a video many years ago. I don't even remember the name of the guy who spoke in the video and don't have the video link. But I went through the comments of the video and came across many words talking about enlightenment, buddha, Ramana Mahirishi, vedanta etc... Only then I started some serious reading on the subject and started to practice various meditations, self-inquiry etc...

right... thats what I thought... When there are lots of things to deal with, thinking is required.. But I think it will be very minimal, sometimes too slow movement of thoughts.. It has been my experience too, the thought flow in my mind is very slow, after having practiced self-inquiry for a few years Here is a good resource on the practice which I do: http://freddieyam.com/gen2/p/annamalai.enquiry.html

@Anna1 Regarding pain vs suffering, this one is incredible : "It started in November 1948 when a tiny lump the size of a pea was found. In February 1949, this was removed by the ashram doctor, assisted by another devotee doctor. Soon, another growth appeared, which Ramana jokingly characterized as “rising like a lingam.” Ramana never complained and continued with a cheerful calmness. Another operation was done by an eminent surgeon in March. Radium was applied, and, for a time, Ramana’s heath improved, though this was short lived. The doctor told Ramana that a complete amputation of the arm to the shoulder was required, but Ramana did not agree to this. The third and forth operations were performed in August and December, still to no avail, and further weakened Ramana. For one operation, Ramana was offered anesthetic, which he refused. After the operation, a devotee asked Ramana, “Did not that hurt?” to which Ramana answered, “The body had pain. Am I the body?” Other systems of medicine were then tried; all proved fruitless and were stopped by the end of March when all hope was given up. During all this, Ramana remained peaceful, with keen alertness and a luster to his eyes. Not a complaint, not a moan, not a sigh during this entire ordeal. He remained steadfastly rooted in the Self." https://satramana.org/web/bhagavan-sri-ramana-maharshi/sri-ramana-maharshis-life/ An operation without anesthesia? I am sure many people who call themselves enlightened fail this test... But I doubt that there is actually an ultimate line called enlightenment beyond which there is no progress... May be no one knows, but there is a continuous progress until death. Since, Ramana was enlightened at a very early age, he might have gone too deep...

@Anna1 Q. “Do you have thoughts?” Sri Ramana: “I usually have no thoughts.” Q. “But when you are reading?” Sri Ramana: “Then I have thoughts.” Q. “And when someone asks you a question?” Sri Ramana: “Then, too, I have thoughts when replying, not otherwise.” Q. “How can I keep the idea of that real state always before me?” Sri Ramana: “Because you think you are a body you are not able to keep that single idea, you are not firm! The idea that you must go to Tiruvannamalai and see Maharshi is only a function of the intellect. Really no help is required. You are already in your original state; how can anyone help you to arrive where you already are? The help given is only to clear out your wrong notions. The great men, the gurus can help only by removing the obstacles in your way. A child and Jnaniare in some ways similar*. The child ceases to think of incidents after they have passed off. Thus it shows that they do not leave deep impressions on the child’s mind. So too with a Jnani.” From the section: "GURU" (page 19-20) in the book, "MORE DOUBTS AND 100 MORE ANSWERS

@Anna1 After enlightenment, do the flow of thoughts get tremendously reduced or no?

@Snick I just thought of saying that after seeing nearly 70 replies, so I opened this page and then I noticed you already said that..

@eputkonen I understand it is off topic.. but I can't help asking this question though because i used to wonder if reincarnation is really true or not... For me, these things don't distract my path because I have grown in the path enough to see these things as totally separate and related to the objective world.. I always have curiosity about objective world and I wonder with questions of scientific nature.. and I see this similar to that.. I don't care about my own past lives and don't really have interest to know about them but I would like to find out if reincarnation exists or not.. When I say historical, I am not talking about a famous figure... I didn't assume that you should have been a famous figure in the past life.. But f you really remember a past life incident, even a memory of one incident may reveal a lot of things... For example, If you remember an incident where you were in a market in some part of the world and in sometime in the past, you would see something entirely different in that memory.. You probably remember people of different skin color, wearing different types of clothes, speaking in a different language, standing near buildings that look a little different etc... Yes, you may be making up a story but you would get nothing out of it, there are a lot of other ways to get attention. So, i think that would be unlikely. But what I really want to find out is, if the memory you have is really a past life memory or a distorted memory from the current life that you honestly believe as a past life memory.. This happens to everyone and I think it is the nature of mind to distort memories, so this doesn't mean that the person who is reporting that memory is dishonest and not authentic. But based on the memory you report, I think I can possibly guess if it was real past life memory or some memory of present life that you unconsciously concluded as your past life memory at some point of time.. I am pretty sure that sometimes these recollections are convincing enough for even a super intelligent person to believe that it happened in a past life..

@eputkonen please don't ignore this question by asking what reason... If you have authentic past life memories, you wouldn't mind sharing it here I think... A part of significance of the whole enlightenment thing is getting out of the cycle of rebirths.. I always used to wonder, what if it is not true.. what if reincarnation is a myth? But you are telling me that you remember past lives, so I really want to know more about it.. I have thousands of reasons that I can't really explain in a single post. If you don't mind, please tell me in which country and in which time period were you born? what language did you speak?

@eputkonen Please tell me about your past lives... in which country and in which time period were you born? what language did you speak?

@eputkonen nice... have you ever experientially felt the chakras.. I hear a lot about chakras but I wonder how they ever found that they exist.. How did they come up with 7 chakras and not ten? How did they exactly figure out the locations of chakras.. Do you remember your past lives? Do you think reincarnation is real?

You are getting these many replies.. That definitely proves other people exist Actually if you think about it, we only know that other people exist by inference.. Even if you see a tree, you conclude 'I see a tree, therefore it exists'... When you sleep, the world simply disappears. One thing is absolutely true: You exist

Talk 141 Jnana, once revealed, takes time to steady itself. The Self is certainly within the direct experience of everyone, but not as one imagines it to be. It is only as it is. This Experience is samadhi. Just as fire remains without scorching against incantations or other devices but scorches otherwise, so also the Self remains veiled by vasanas and reveals itself when there are no vasanas. Owing to the fluctuation of the vasanas, jnana takes time to steady itself. Unsteady jnana is not enough to check rebirths. Jnana cannot remain unshaken side by side with vasanas. True, that in the proximity of a great Master, the vasanas will cease to be active, the mind becomes still and samadhi results, similar to fire not scorching because of other devices. Thus the disciple gains true knowledge and right experience in the presence of the Master. To remain unshaken in it further efforts are necessary. He will know it to be his real Being and thus be liberated even while alive. Samadhi with closed eyes is certainly good, but one must go further until it is realised that actionlessness and action are not hostile to each other. Fear of loss of samadhi while one is active is the sign of ignorance. Samadhimust be the natural life of everyone. There is a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness. Until it is realised effort is necessary. After tasting such Bliss, even once one will repeatedly try to regain it. Having once experienced the Bliss of Peace no one would like to be out of it or engage himself otherwise. It is as difficult for a Jnani to engage in thoughts as it is for an ajnani to be free from thought. The common man says that he does not know himself; he thinks many thoughts and cannot remain without thinking. Any kind of activity does not affect a Jnani; his mind remains ever in eternal Peace.

@Anna1 I don't think it was about you.. I think he said that about this whole thread

another irony: we are slowly starting a gossip in a thread which is created to stop gossip

@Anna1 thanks.. it is very useful

Talk 326 BY Ramana Maharishi Here is another illustration. Suppose a cow plays rogue and strays into neighbours’ fields to graze. She is not easily weaned from her stealthy habit. Think how she can be kept in the stall. If forcibly tethered in the stall she simply bides her time to play the rogue. If she is tempted with fine grass in the stall she takes one mouthful on the first day and again waits for the opportunity to run away. The next day she takes two mouthfuls; so she takes more and more on each succeeding day, until finally she is weaned from her wicked tendencies. When entirely free from bad habits she might be safely left free and she would not stray into neighbours’ pasture land. Even when beaten in the stall, she does not afterwards leave the place. Similarly with the mind. It is accustomed to stray outward by the force of the latent vasanas manifesting as thoughts. So long as there are vasanas contained within they must come out and exhaust themselves. The thoughts comprise the mind. Searching what the mind is, the thoughts will recoil and the seeker will know that they arise from the Self. It is the aggregate of these thoughts that we call ‘mind’. If one realises that the thoughts arise from the Self and abide in their source, the mind will disappear. After the mind ceases to exist and bliss of peace has been realised, one will find it then as difficult to bring out a thought, as he now finds it difficult to keep out all thoughts. Here the mind is the cow playing the rogue; the thoughts are the neighbours’ pasture; one’s own primal being free from thoughts is the stall.’

@eputkonen that is a clear explanation, thanks... 'Spirituality became something to inflate the ego.' 'I point in a different way (than Buddha or Patanjali)...and because it is different it may help others. I see that most people are very busy doing things to wake up and have been doing things for many years...so I suggest to stop doing things and just see/be aware.' Got it

@Anna1 Yes, you mentioned the distinction between awakening and enlightenment, and you said James used the word 'self-realization' for awakening.. But these are modern interpretations. I am just interested to know if there was such a distinction in traditional Vedanta, which will add more clarity.. I just wrote an email to shiningworld asking this question.. I hope I will get some useful answer regarding this.

@eputkonen says he is enlightened and we are discussing something interesting in the following thread: I invite you all to participate in the discussion

@eputkonen Then what is the significance of Yoga and eight fold path in Buddhism.. Is it all useless?

@Anna1 It is not about being hung up on the concept. I would love to read more of James Swartz's articles but the distinction that is made by James between self realization and enlightenment looks like his own opinion and that makes me doubt if all of his teachings are in accordance with Vedanta. I think it is important to get this doubt clarified, I have a little background in Vedanta and to my knowledge, no such distinction is made between self-realization and enlightenment. But I could be wrong. So there is nothing wrong in getting it clarified. You are saying that you are suspicious of anyone stating that Self realization didn't need any "assimilation" to gain Moksha (freedom/liberation). So this distinction certainly matters to you in someway. The same way, I am a little suspicious of Jame Swartz just because he is making such a distinction. But please don't get me wrong. I don't want to miss an authentic teacher either. So, if James Swartz is teaching Vedanta as it is, it will be certainly helpful for me. I just need more clarification.

@Anna1 I guess Vedanta has been in existence for many centuries...I would like to see an authentic source from Vedanta to see where this distinction between self-realization and enlightenment is made.. I did read James Swartz interview but I prefer to see something directly from Vedantic scriptures such as Upanishads or Bhagwad Gita or even Shankara's books, where it clearly states that these two are different... Can you help with that?