Valach

Yea, because you are in paradigm where success with woman is above all so you do not carefully evaluate what impact it has on your self esteem, how healthy and sustainable this lifestyle is.

Yeah, the issue is that the more you consciously try to appear high-value, the more you condition yourself that you are not high value in the first place.

Not my experience. Actually quite the opposite. I have met many man who even after getting the "attractive" woman were still not feeling good enough deep in their body. It then leads to the player lifestyle where you are addicted to the validation of woman (because you do not feel good enough in the first place so you need to medicate it). It is not a route towards healthy relationships, if that is your goal.

He can be an alright stepping stone. The thing is that he still "games". My approach to this is through self esteem and inner work. Essentially just being completely fine with yourself and this emanating from you. Not using any techniques or game to try to provoke reaction. Not hiding behind a mask of a charismatic person. But what you find after that is that the drive to go out and get woman in the first place might go down quite a bit. Which is obvious onto why.

I have found his perspective deeply limited. He has his place in the community, but it feels like he never actually moved on from technical game.

Trusting your body is all you really need

What you do not realise that this type of thinking is exactly coming from a place where you are putting her above her and thus you think you need to control your behaviour in some ways.

Yeah, okay, I am onboard with that. Though in my perception it is very hard to be heatlhy and orange at the same time. Vast majority of people are traumatized and it is very hard to get in touch with your pain without developing self awareness, that would probably move you past orange anyways.

Woudln't 2000$ bottle of vine places attract more still orange oriented people?

I guess you meant "anything that is NOT the standard loud music club." What are high class parties?

Oh yea, that is fair. But I would not describe it as "party lifestyle" then. What kind of circles/events did you find the most healthy people in?

I am more radical in this I suppose. The moment you are consuming any substances like alcohol, smoking etc. at least somewhat regularly, you are definitely running away from yourself. And party lifestyle and casual sex etc. definitely goes hand in hand with substance abuse. Unless you are PUA, but then that has its own issues. I have also never met a really conscious person who would have high levels of self awareness and would be highly promiscuous. Perhaps, they exist and I was just unlucky. But that is my experience nonetheless.

That is not exactly what I meant. Distraction from their -> distraction from their inner world and inner pain/suffering. The person getting drunk at the party is distracting themselves just as much as introvert playing video games etc.

I wouldn't say these people are really happy. Most of this lifestyle is just an attempt to distract yourself.

Okay, if you compare them to non-pickup guys like looksmaxxers, then I agree.

Really? Can you expand on the thick face approach? In my experience it was actually the on surface "softer" guys who were more in touch with their emotions who evolved past the pickup phase eventually. At least from what I saw in the PUA community I was and still partially am in.

Fair. At this point I am getting lost in all the topics and opinions on this forum

I don't know about others but I also looked up and respected the shit out of woman I dated - at least seriously. I do the same with my friends. But I would not call it hypergamy really.

I think this is where I'm still confused. Building systems doesn't seem unique to Yellow. Orange builds incredibly sophisticated systems too—companies, financial markets, logistics networks, marketing funnels, social networks. So what makes a system specifically Yellow rather than simply a very advanced Orange system? Is it the fact that it's a system, or is it the values and motivations that shape why the system exists and how it operates? To me, systems thinking is a hallmark of Yellow, but building an organization around something doesn't automatically make it Yellow.

Idk why he does that, you have to ask him.

I agree that "frame" is broader than just emotional investment. Where I disagree is with the emphasis on frame control. To me, there is a difference between having a grounded worldview and trying to control the interaction so it stays within your frame. The former comes from security. The latter often comes from fear of losing approval, status or attraction. Someone with healthy self-esteem doesn't need to constantly think about maintaining or controlling the frame. They can be vulnerable, change their mind, admit they're wrong or let the other person influence them without feeling like they've "lost." Ironically, I think genuine confidence is the ability to let go of control, not to become better at exercising it.

Absolutely. If someone spends 20 years talking about compassion but is incapable of helping anyone, there is a disconnect. I think that's a valid philosophy, but I'm not sure that's what Spiral Dynamics itself is describing. My understanding is that Spiral Dynamics is primarily a model of evolving value systems and motivations. Those values should absolutely be embodied in reality, but why should the embodiment necessarily be measured by entrepreneurship, financial independence or organizational power? Couldn't a teacher, physician or therapist embody higher-stage values through the work they do without ever building a company? Likewise, couldn't someone build a highly successful company while still being primarily motivated by achievement, status and winning? Where I think we still disagree is what counts as embodying higher-stage values. For example, I have a friend who used to be a pickup coach. He is highly competent, disciplined, independent and socially skilled, so I would say he has integrated many healthy Orange capacities. Today, he has consciously shifted his priorities. His life revolves around reducing suffering—animal rights and helping women who have experienced domestic abuse. He earns just enough to comfortably pay for food and rent. Not because he lacks the ability to earn more, but because he deliberately chooses to spend his time differently. Would you say he hasn't transcended Orange simply because he chose not to maximize money or build a business?

It comes from pickup. It is essentially about emotional investment. The less you care, the better you are at "maintaing frame". While it has some truth to it, it is deeply problematic.

Fundamentally wrong on both levels. Definitely met plenty of woman who were not in such relationships. I was also not leader in some of my relationships. People evolve. You consume pickup theory and then go back into the real world with closed mind, you will only see the examples that verify your assumptions. And yes, as people mature and become more conscious, while obviously not transcending survival needs, they can become less important for them - thus seeking different relationships than those which PUA/redpill etc. claim.

I think this is where our disagreement actually lies. You seem to be using external achievements (business ownership, financial independence, influence, entrepreneurship) as the criteria for having transcended Orange. I'm not convinced that's what Spiral Dynamics is describing. Couldn't those simply be expressions of healthy Orange (and I am not even sure about that) rather than evidence of having moved beyond it? For example, imagine two people: One builds a very successful business but is still primarily motivated by achievement, status and winning. Another is a physician or teacher who embodies competence, rationality, autonomy and responsibility, but whose primary motivation has shifted toward understanding, service and consciousness. Why would the entrepreneur necessarily be considered to have transcended Orange more than the physician? I'm genuinely asking because this seems to be the assumption underlying your argument, and I don't see why external success should be the defining criteria rather than the values and motivations driving the person. In other words: If someone spends their life as an employed physician, scientist, monk, professor, or therapist but clearly embodies Yellow values, would you still say they haven't transcended Orange because they aren't financially independent? Or if @Leo Gura for some reason decides to quit his work around actualized.org and goes back to game development, does that mean he regressed back to orange?