Valach

Cool read! Best of luck to you!

Thanks for an answer! How do you then go on living a role that society pressures you into whilst full on knowing that is not who you are? What is the concious realating you mention?

I am struggling here internally. How do you navigate developing your own masculinity because it is who you are (or want to be if that's possible) vs Wanting to be a masculine man because you know that is what woman desire - and you want to be liked/loved by woman, so you want to become the masculine man. Which basically is just another neediness manifestation.

Of course. Pickup at its core is performative paradigm. How could you connect from that.

That is what pickup conditioning does to guys.

How does mature love look to you then?

My bad, I missread that.

You can be very confident and emotional as well. Those are not exclusive.

The quality of the relationship is build upon what both sides put into it, that is the main difference and was kind of my point. I went through something similiar years ago where I just began game and met a girl I really liked - I entered the relationship despite all the PUA guys telling me not to. It was great but for the 2 years I was with her I had this inner conflict that I "should" be single and "should" develop my game and explore and blah blah. So I ended the relationship, got much better at "game", got more options with woman, dated so many more woman all the things...she was still the best woman I dated - not the prettiest one, but definitely the best relationship material. And on some level I knew it when I was with her, I just let the pickup conditioning get into my head.

No matter whom you get into relationship with, there is always gonna be someone better.

I wish you that you find your person out there;)

Well, why did you start with this whole thing in the first place?

I updated my comment before you responded with this one. I am not that familiar with Juliens letting go. Noone is talking about manifesting. Do not pretend like I said you should be sitting at home and meditate your way into having a dating life. You have to realize that most of the guys who are hitting up clubs trying to get better with woman are doing so from a position of having trauma in the first place. The funny thing is that if you would be able to resolve your trauma then yes, you will probably get better socially. But at the same time you will also lose a big chunk of your motivation for "gaming".

You clearly are not open to even understanding what inner work or trauma release is. What is the point of opening a post then if you are not willing to entertain other ideas. Just like @Raze said inner work is not about some visualization of you slaying it in the club. It is not some instants release that you do once and you are suddenly healed. Just like any worthwhile activity, it takes a long time to see a little improvment. Also leaning your definition of self esteem or "innergame" by how successfull you are with getting the validation of people who are traumatized as well is not the best strategy either. Most people who make it big in pickup never really heal their traumas (Owen is clear example of that). That is precisely why they struggle to keep a healthy relationship going - thus they keep getting back into game and "getting better" at it.

Yup, edited it afterwards, sorry. CPTSD and shame are different things albeit connected. Also you example is very extereme. Yes people who go through torture might suffer consequnces, but that is rare in modern society luckily. Interestingly enough Gabor Mate talked about this exact case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOvbNLqueVk

Expand then on how going through orange (in this case through pickup) is needed to cure trauma. From my experience the only needed part of this is that when people go through this (they get the success in orange realm) and realize that it does not cure shit, then the healing starts. Shame is not created by something like this. It is a much earlier experience. It is the feeling of "There is something wrong with me/I am not enough". It gets created very early on in childhood ( I would say first 3 years). A person who would be virgin later on but had no internal shame (which is extremely rare) would not be affected by this shaming from society.

I completely agree that confidence and self-esteem are different. For example, I can be very confident in my physical strength if I'm competing against someone much weaker, yet still have generally low self-esteem. Confidence is usually domain-specific—it's trust in your ability to do a particular thing. Self-esteem is much broader; it's the relationship you have with yourself regardless of performance. Where I think dating differs from many other domains is that, beyond basic social skills, it's difficult to separate the interaction from your sense of self. You can certainly learn techniques, conversation skills or flirting. But if those become a way to compensate for feeling fundamentally "not enough," the interaction easily turns into performance rather than authentic self-expression. That's why I think pickup can make someone more socially competent without necessarily increasing their self-esteem. It builds confidence in a skill, but whether it changes the underlying relationship you have with yourself is a different question.

So what did you mean by that? Which is a perfect example of toxic shame. Instead of feeling a lot of shame around being a virgin, it will latch onto some other aspect of your psyche and justify your inadequacy by that.

Here basically. What kind of wounds do you expect it to cure?

If trauma is just a lack of Orange, how do you explain high-performing CEOs, elite athletes or successful pickup coaches who openly struggle with anxiety, addiction, perfectionism or insecure attachment? They seem highly Orange while also being clearly traumatized. Conversely, plenty of emotionally secure people have little interest in achievement or optimization. Sleeping with a lot of woman is not going to cure any wound inside of you.

You do not have to go through pickup to integrate healthy orange. Spiral Dynamics describes developmental values, while trauma describes nervous system and attachment patterns. Someone can be highly Orange and deeply traumatized, or relatively healed without being particularly Orange.

This is not a spiral stage. This is a trauma I am talking about. People who had really good parents and childhood do not feel drawn to it and it is not because they are more evolved.

That is precisely the myth shame keeps on telling you. You were born with true confidence, you lost it along the way. And it was not lack of woman in your life that caused it. I mean it could have been if the woman lacking in your life was your mother

Because pickup is shame-based industry. It holds this mindset of "there is something inherently wrong with me and if I work hard enough I can overcome it and get the reward (woman)". Shame comes from trauma - and it causes a lot of issues around self esteem, socializing and dating in general. I have never met a person in my life who was drawn into pickup and I would consider this person "reasonably healthy" - I met some guys who did a lot of inner work to move closer to such a point, but they started elsewhere. That is not me shitting on pickup guys. That's just what I observed. It is an industry as a whole that just attracts traumatized people. I, myself, am full of trauma.

Makes sense, thanks!