arjuna

@smd I know! At least answer the last one...

@Vytas Yes, it is. @smd "Extremes seem to be a dual-edged sword. You might be rewarded or perhaps find yourself dead or sharing a prison cell with Bubba. hahaha." be rewarded? sounds reactive to me. isn't the key question if you take responsability for your actions, life, reality? "I just wanted to report about a guy on mushrooms, the lighter psychedelic, just recently killed his gf." how are mushrooms a "lighter" psychedelic? "He was an SJW, pro-feminist, and shot a feminist." how is that fact relevant in this discussion? "Perhaps he never would have done that if he didn't do the mushrooms?" Maybe yes. On the other hand, he never would have done if he didnt had ptsd and was on shrooms? or he never would have done it if he was on shrooms with ptsd and his gf was not a feminist? or he would have done it without shrooms, with ptsd and his feminist gf having sex with other guys? etc. "I'm not judging guys! " Then why write that sentence? Who is responsable for the actions/descisions one makes in life? poverty? society? drugs? guns laws? free speech? hate speech?

@Annetta nope. it's ivolved in about 70% of all acts of violence... (don't nail me to the exact number)

@smd You know, there are studies related to drugs and violence... Can you guess which drug is related the most to acts of violence? Are you saying, that taking drugs is stripping one from responsability of action? Do you think, there is an inherent quality in psychoactive substances that causes people to be violent?

@OBEler I only said, don't take psychedelics with ptsd for recreational purposes... LSD can be a very effective cure for ptsd. But only with professional help. Doing it alone without knowing exactly what to do, it CAN backfire tremendiously. Seek either a therapist who does psycholithic psychotherapy or someone who already did it. Depending on what's the cause for ptsd, the therapy will be very different. And even then, "normal" trauma therapy should be done. psychedelics can offer a shortcut but to strenghten the new imprints, conventional therapy is also advised to be taken imho.

The OP is absolutely not rational but posting out of emotionality. Leo is making a strawman argument by misrepresenting the OP's concerns about the topic and then putting up his strawman: "You see how rationality plays tricks on you?" First of all, the OP's arguments are not rational at all, lacking basic logical thinking and showing his bias and emotion regarding the topic. Thus his "rationality" isn't playing any tricks on him, rather his lack of it. "I dare you to name one technology which has not resulted in the deaths of at least hundreds of people." This is the strawman. If the OP cannot answer this question, his argument is dead. If he answers it, his argument is dead aswell. But the concern, that psychedelics CAN be dangerous in the wrong hands, trigger latent psychological issues, is avoided.

@smd I am doing psychedelics over 22 years now and i can give you this advice: Don't underestimate their power. mushrooms, LSD, DMT etc. are powerful substances and not toys to play around. They can have serious impact on the mind. They have the potential to let you see the truth but they can make you delusional and megalomaniacal aswell. psychedelics are tools and like a knife or a hammer, can be used for multiple purposes. If you got a psychological disorder like ptsd, they should not be taken for recreational purposes. Also they could trigger a latent shizophrenia or psychosis if someone has a high vulnerability.

Yes, i am able to see paramatman in everything and everyone. Still i will have to provide food for my body. To deny that is denial of reality. Talking about something unspeakable is playing wordgames. It leads to a funny paradox inconsistency, "fighting" the ego and at the same time making money for a wealthy lifestyle. There is nothing wrong with that if you are consistent. Talking about to overcome reality and the ego and at the same time embracing it, judging others is hypocrisy. Saying the body is illusion and at the same time providing healthy food for it is hypocrisy. Either you are in a constant state of brahman - total enlighenment, or if you are not, accept dual reality, otherwise it leads to a shizophrenic, dangerous mindset.

After watching a few videos of Leo and reading a little here in the forum, it seems to me, that the narrative here is, that the "ego" is something to "overcome". Is this observation of mine right? if yes, why? Where do you see the functionality of "ego"? why is it something to overcome?

imo if one is not able anymore to watch this video untill the end, he lost critical thinking and doesnt want to be confronted with legitimate points. What is the difference in this guys tone and way he makes fun of leo, and leo's passive-agressive way of not answering my questions in my topic and indirectly telling me, that if i pursue in questioning "spiritual truths" i am wrapped in "insanity, falsehood etc", "acting like a dog" (identifying as human is like falsely identifying as a dog (or napoleon)). One could say that leo only wanted to pinch my ego by saying it acts like a dog, triggering a reaction that ultimately would prove his point of the ego taking itself to seriously. So this video and the way the guy rants could be the same to you, not watching and listening to his points, because it "hurts" your ego. Questioning authority is a mayor part of true self-growth. And all these threads here, saying one must have humour etc. and you not able of watching the whole video because of the guys very light-hearted approach, exposing hypocrisy here...

Due to "coincidence" i spontaniously "experienced" "absolute infinity", brahman or "that what cannot be named". It opened up many doors and showed me the nature of all. Intuition is the key and to distinguish it from delusion is sometimes difficult. But in all the years it goes better and better and i "achieve" things without achieving them. effort without effort. I am still on the way to understand it. I respect authority but i go with what is in the end of veda or vedanta: if your experience is contrary to scriptures and authority, follow your experience! Thank you very much for your insights and lighthearted discussion on the topic. :-)

@Leo Gura when i ask questions that is delusional, insane and false? i perceive this as a projection of you. now, we could debate this with no meaning to it, letting our egos free but i wont fall in this trap... My question is legit and giving no room to philosophical questions about a topic seems rather authoritian and dogmatic.

@Leo Gura we established that "illusion" is the construction of atoms being there to a form and a name like "tree". does that mean that the tree is not to be experienced? who says that the "false" identification of "being" a human being is to be overcomed? And why is this "material" world/multiverse there in the first place? to overcome it?

@abrakamowse " if there's something, it must come from nothing." The moment i "came back" from this "experience" and got back my ego, language and mind i knew that the smallest dot or letter i utter to try to describe brahman IS NOT brahman. even the word "brahman" is not brahman. it just is. the word that is the farthest away from it is "nothing". maybe it is again the problem, that this word no-thing in its original meaning and etymos of sanskrit is not translatable. "being" "in" the body appears to be objective real. that i AM not my body is clear. "knowing" what i am is an intellectual process and imo is not possible to really get brahman bec. intellect again works through words. words are not it. does it make sense then to seek out brahman? is it even possible to "seek" it? isn't it like a child wanting to go back in the belly of its mother? avoiding the pain of the "real" world?

It's like the ultimate goal, holy grail of spiritualism is to separate from the structurized world. but why? could there be a mis-understanding? I saw one picture that made me think and change my mind. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva descending into Manu. not the other way round. "gods" are concepts, ideals bt devoid of "realness" in the sense of "real" of our multidimensional, structured world with time, action reaction. could it be that we, manu, are the manifested concept of these ideals/gods/demons/ideas?

words are so difficult. i know that brahman can not "grow" because it just is. touched and untouched, everything and nothing. still "we" are from it, one and separated at the same time.

@abrakamowse Note: The "illusion" allows the world to be "created" agreed. imo "creation" takes place through observation and structurize through words. Now... where i think i differ from buddhists is the conclusion. yes, suffering is happening. but also joy. yes, suffering and joy are also illusions in the sense that they are not eternal. brahman is eternal joy (these words are not it) Is it a "fall"? or is the one-ness "creating" the multiple "worlds" to individualize and grow? I think it is evolution and to dance in it and make conscious "creations" is fun! I know their nature but even after having the privilege to have experienced this brahman there is a "reason" i am in my body. why go back so quickly?

@abrakamowse "it is farther from the light source that is you." The "you" would be paramatman?

@abrakamowse Do i undersand this right? language or spoken words are soundwaves, atoms pushed around stimulating the ear and put toghether to structured words and sounds in the brain. one could say that words/language is an illusion because in reality it's just atoms pushed around and even atoms are just quantum possibilities, manifested through observation. Is this what you mean by "Illusion"?

@Scholar I can relate to your post strongly. What helped me alot is to learn debate/argumentation rules (logical fallacies etc.) and then join some debating group online (or maybe a real group) where debate is taking place, where people actively want to debate topics with a winner and a looser of an argument. It helped me to live the urge to lecture people and at the same time it humbled me alot, when i realized how poor my arguments were structured. It strenghtened my logical thinking, i learned alot about conceptual thinking, etymology of words, semantics etc. I learned to distinguish topics that are debatable and other topics that are purely subjective. I learned a lot of different viewpoints and to respect them. I learned that the universe will not collaps in itself when someone IS wrong, bec. they will go their own path to knowledge and i was surprised that when i let them go, that eventually they will come to the same conclusion AND i was at the same time able to see their former perspective. Asking questions is a very good way and let people come to their own conclusions in their own pace imo. Always think about the possibility of being wrong.

@Nahm Interesting. Just to recap/check if i got it right: According to your experience the involvement of ego always separates thinking, separates decisions and separates how i treat others. Do you mean "separation" in the sense of "sorting out" or splitting, like if i involve ego in a descision it will put me in doubt? related to treating others, that involvement of ego separates me from others instead of connecting?

@tyy When i was 12 years old, i visited the "tantra-gallery" in our town. it was an "esoteric" book store. in the most discrete corner of the store, i found books concerning magick, most of them from aleister crowley and the golden dawn order. i read those books with great interest, i thought i would learn how to cast fireballs and become a great magician... But it was "only" about things i didn't understand at the time and meditation and visualisation techniques. but i didnt let go and tried these techniques and tried to understand what the books were talking about. Now magick has a very different approach to ego and meditation then as example buddhism or spirituality ( a word i don't understand till today...) . Later i found my home in chaos magick, because there were no specific paradigms attached to it or complicated rituals etc. when i became 18 i experimented with various drugs and psychedelics. the "breakthrough" was spontaniously, without drugs, just sitting there and contemplating on some things when i noticed, that i was going through an "elevator" that didnt stop. i think i just made my mind ready somehow since i was a kid. i never experienced it again, not through drugs or meditation or yoga techniques. it changed my life. The thing is, that through my studies of magickal practices, my "way" is mostly totally contrary to ways described in esoteric books. i see the ego as a tool, hindrance and companion. i would rather not tell anyone to follow in my footsteps, because sanity and insanity are sometimes very near to each other and it's not a cozy, warm and enjoyable way. but very interesting! i don't distance my self from identity because they are not the same and never will be the same. it's more to recognise that they are different but accept and love both. this sentence already implies a third self, that meta-positions itself over the self and the ego. this is mind-boggling and since i am "pragmatic" in nature, not usefull. it just is. my theory is, that this what we call intuition is the ability to distinguish between the infinite self and wishfull thinking, the infinite self, devoid from time-space continuity, knowing everything. i am training to listen, to trust and to act according to that what i perceive as intuition. the trick is to not get fooled from wishfull thinking. but again, this is what i think it is, for someone else it may not be true. tomorrow it may not be true for myself. and that leads to my next thing that keeps me not-attached. - paradigm shifting. 10 years ago i read about this - typical for chaos magick - to try to swap and embrace opposite paradigms, to an extend near full-identification. how is it to see the world through a christians eye. atheist, pantheist. then - scientific-atheistic paradigm. psychological, energetical, cybernetic paradigm etc. it's very hard to give up world views and, not only intellectually or abstract, change into another world view untill you ARE talking like them, acting like them ARE them. and then one day beeing remembered about the descision i made to swap and come back, integrate - metaplane - and choose the next paradigm and go diving. Drugs and psychedelika would be endangering the stability of those experiences, so i stop with them for several years i may be "in" that paradigm. maybe in meta-state, LSD to contemplate and integrate befor the next "dive". I fully embrace the idea of ultimate reality or in chaos-paradigm, the chaos "made" us to experience and evolve. NOT as many understand it, that this plane of existence is somewhat of a FALL! i think, christian-sin-thinking combined with the garden of eden story intermixed, making it something "evil" to overcome. i dont think so. i think ONE-ness could be, where we go when leaving this body or dying. But now i am here, and i want to create and explore the possibility of the brain WITH the identity construct, what it can do. True, it is illusionary in nature, meaning, it is not infinite and every construct here will disolve and take another form. but to consciously play with this creative ability to be able to form and experience realities is interesting, pleasurable and expands knowledge and wisdom. something not achievable in the state of ONE-ness or brahman. it comes with the danger of a collective, illusionary split-personality, projected as "God" and "Devil", causing, when projected unconsciously a lot of harm and suffering. Now this step in evolution is to understand that god and devil is in us, taking individual responsability, constructing a good world to live in. i think this can be achieved collectively, through harmonizing the ego with the self, ending duality on this plane of existence. not by going back from where we came from. that would be regression. "When you observe the ego in yourself, you are beginning to go beyond it. Don't take the ego too seriously." As you may understand from my wall of text. i can understand on a way, what he is saying here... on the same time, i dont understand where it should lead me. these are words from someone else and they are maybe true, maybe not. "All you need to know and observe in yourself is this: whenever you feel superior or inferior to anyone, that's the ego in you." yes, i agree. but what's next? what should it lead to? that i am not allowed to feel superiour or inferior? so yes! it is the ego. so what? what does it mean to state this sentence? what are the consequences from it? these would be my questions. questions, that a book should not answer. "These observation practices are valuable too though, along with meditation?" I don't know. Maybe it is for you, maybe it isn't. Don't listen to what i say, i am just a foolish idiot, stumbling through existence with an insane grin on my face...

@tyy i have looked in to that book a long time ago, introduced by a friend of mine. don't get me wrong. i had the privilege to experience "it", "god", "enlightenmend", Brahman, infinite reality or whatever we can not call "it" spontanious an even longer time ago. I know ego-death from first hand experience. The problem i see with a theoretical approach a.e. through books, that it can be understood to a certain level intellectualy BUT it is impossible to "HIT THE POINT" through it. This paradoxon can have the ability to create a sort of meta-delusion. Everytime when i hear people talk about it coming from intellectual understanding, they often get themselves in paradox sentences. "the ego is real and unreal". the problem with that is, that language structures the mind and intellect and paradox thinking CAN lead to shizophrenic mindsets. "Infinity" or "Brahman" is beyond intellect, beyond language, beyond "duality". It is impossible to structure it in a dual way. I even would go so far to say, that EVERY word about it is illusion. So i am highly critical about any books regarding non-duality. there may be good intentions behind it, but i have yet to see someone, reaching a true non-dual state of mind through it. my experience is rather the opposite and i have seen lots of people loose their minds through it. not in a positive way. My personal conclusion to deal with ego is to be aware what it is and that "they" are mere constructs. As long as i am living in a "world" built and constructed by words and meaning, trying to "kill" or "overcome" the ego through other words is per definition not possible. accepting this "reality" or "fact" is far more healthier and keeps me grounded. This reality is not parted from ultimate reality in reality one could see it as an evolutionary step to experience itself through us/itself. in this regard i am a monist, not dualist. duality itself is a construct. imo there is no need to "transcend" or "overcome" the ego, just be aware what it is and don't identify totally with it. I opened this topic to get a sense of how people here see this and look if i can engage in discussion and/or expansion of my horizon. english is not my mothertongue so i hope my words made a little sense.

@cirkussmile If this is true, then how is it possible, that you can state such a sentence. if the ego can't see the unreal part of everything, then how is it possible to state such a sentence from a knowing position? isn't the "knower" not always the ego? if not, what is the part who can state such a thing, unless it's theoretical and thus unreal.

@aryberry i see what you are saying. so, since EVERY-thing is EGO, transcending everything is self-improvement?