Shanmugam

@Shanmugam But still, the modern vedanta taught now lacks some of the teachings of Shankara, even thought it claims to be from Shankara's thoughts. I am not denying that. Here I am talking about what is happening now. I have already covered that in my post

@Joseph Maynor A little bit... I read a lot about Buddhist way last month and it was amazing. Now, it has various schools, theraveda, mahayana, zen (subschool of mahayana), Tibetan buddhism etc. But the core remains the same. If you read commentaries on Apidhamma of Pali canon, you will get many insights into the nature of mind.

@Anna1 "Overtime, vedantins became mere intellectuals who kept repeating that all is maya. This led to 5 other subschools of vedanta which criticized vedantins as mayavadis." Read the above two lines... I have explained what happened before the 5 other subschools of Vedanta were formed. Many of the people who read Vedanta those days was simply repeating everything is maya.. If you are reading my posts solely to find faults, you will find faults in some way.

@Anna1 I am talking about what happened many centuries before... You are picking up statements without the context.. It is true that there were people in Ancient India who were just repeating all is maya.. This happened a few centuries after Shankara's time.If you read the next sentence, it should be clear that I am talking about the past: Overtime, vedantins became mere intellectuals who kept repeating that all is maya. This led to 5 other subschools of vedanta which criticized vedantins as mayavadis.

@Extreme Z7 no, not at all.. Try reading the book again, from chapter 4 - meditation... He addresses how realizing the truth is more important than experiences.. he also talks about how seeing it as a goal can be a trap... the 2nd and 3rd chapter is mostly about brain and neuroscience.. It offers many interesting perspectives but some people may find it boring... in the 5th chapter, he talks about false gurus.. he also talks about using psychedelics to get a glimpse. The book is a perfect bridge between science and enlightenment..

@Snick I agree that it is not juicy... But this book can be said as a guide for a seeker in finding a good teaching and teacher rather than a guide for enlightenment itself... Even though he is a hardcore skeptic, he talks about spirituality in unbiased as well as scientific way.. He has covered all problems that a seeker will have in choosing a legitimate authority and also he talks about teachers in very realistic way.. A completely balanced unbiased stance without leaning towards rejecting everything or accepting everything blindly.. He also uses valid examples to make a point. So, this book is basically like a scientific introduction to spirituality and the path to enlightenment. I also completely agree with the fact that enlightened people have cultural bias as he states. He states an example of Poonjaji who gave an advert for her niece's marriage in the personals column of the newspaper but asked the photographer to lighten her dark skin photographically. He states this not in an intention of finding faults, but just to show that the enlightened ones are not perfect in every way. I have seen many people who call themselves skeptics but they are not even ready to accept the benefits of mindfulness meditation in spite of the available scientific evidence. They are not really skeptics, but believers of total rejection of any value in spirituality. If you have any such friends, you can suggest this book to them.

"Perfectionism is a neurotic idea. Infallibility is good for stupid Polack popes but not for intelligent people. An intelligent person will understand that life is an adventure, a constant exploration through trial and error. That´s its very joy, its very juice! I don´t want you to be perfect. I want you to be just as perfectly imperfect as possible. Rejoice in your imperfections! Rejoice in your very ordinariness! Beware of so-called "His Holinesses" – they are all "His Phoninesses." If you like such big words like "His Holiness" then make a title such as "His Very Ordinariness" – HVO, not HH! I preach ordinariness. I make no claims for any miracles; I am a simple man. And I would like you also to be very simple so that you can get rid of these two polarities: that of guilt and that of hypocrisy. Exactly in the middle is sanity." Osho, The Goose is Out, Talk #5

This guy Sam Harris is very honest... Read this (I don't intend to post the whole book, but I can't help sharing some passages with everyone... I like his approach.. He is a 100% skeptic, criticizes the stupid myths of many traditions but fully acknowledges what we are trying to do here... I would recommend his book to everyone here): Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonjaji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional.

From the same book: "Perhaps you can see the same effect in the above illusion. It certainly looks like there is a white square in the center of the figure, but when we study the image, it becomes clear that there are only four partial circles. The square has been imposed by our visual system, whose edge detectors have been fooled. Can we know that the black shapes are more real than the white square? Yes, because the square doesn’t survive our efforts to locate it—its edges literally disappear. A little investigation and we see that its form has been merely implied. In fact, it is possible to look closely enough at the figure to banish the illusion altogether. But what could we say to a skeptic who insisted that the white square is just as real as the three-quarter circles? All we could do is urge him to look more closely. This is not a matter of debating third-person facts; it is a matter of looking more closely at experience itself. In the next chapter, we will see that the illusion of the self can be investigated—and dispelled—in just this way."

Another excerpt from the same chapter.. "My consciousness is “mine” only because the particularities of my life are illuminated as and where they arise. For instance, I currently have an annoying pain in my neck, the result of a martial arts injury. Why is this “my” pain? Why am I the only one who is directly aware of it? These questions are a symptom of confusion. There is no “I” who is aware of the pain. The pain is simply arising in consciousness in the only place it can arise: at the conjunction of this brain and this neck. Where else could this particular pain be felt? If I were cloned through teleportation, an identical pain might be felt in an identical neck on Mars. But this pain would still be right here in this neck. Whatever its relation to the physical world, consciousness is the context in which the objects of experience appear—the sight of this book, the sound of traffic, the sensation of your back against a chair. There is nowhere else for them to appear—for their very appearance is consciousness in action. And anything that is unique to your experience of the world must appear amid the contents of consciousness. We have every reason to believe that these contents depend upon the physical structure of your brain. Duplicate your brain, and you will duplicate “your” contents in another field of consciousness. Divide your brain, and you will segregate those contents in bizarre ways. We know, from experiments both real and imagined, that psychological continuity is divisible—and can, therefore, be inherited by more than one mind. If my brain were surgically divided by callosotomy tomorrow, this would create at least two independent conscious minds, both of which would be psychologically continuous with the person who is now writing this paragraph. If my linguistic abilities happened to be distributed across both hemispheres, each of these minds might remember having written this sentence. The question of whether I would land in the left hemisphere or the right doesn’t make sense —being based, as it is, on the illusion that there is a self bobbing on the stream of consciousness like a boat on the water. But the stream of consciousness can divide and follow both tributaries simultaneously. Should these tributaries converge again, the final current would inherit the “memories” of each. If, after years of living apart, my hemispheres were reunited, their memories of separate existence could, in principle, appear as the combined memory of a single consciousness. There would be no cause to ask where my “self” had been while my brain was divided, because no “I” exists apart from the stream. The moment we see this, the divisibility of the human mind begins to seem less paradoxical. Subjectively speaking, the only thing that actually exists is consciousness and its contents. And the only thing relevant to the question of personal identity is psychological continuity from one moment to the next."

There are certain things in Psychology which will actually help you to see through some of the games your mind is playing.. Look up for 'list of cognitive biases' in Google, you will see a whole list of biases, which are basically errors in thinking.. And these biases serve the ego.

@Afonso It varies depending on the individual and the two common influences on him: nature and nurture.. So, if it occurs to you that youth is the best time to get enlightenment, it may be true for you... There are people who have been brought up and live in situations where there are always other people who reinforce their assumptions and beliefs about reality. These people may never see through them and begin a genuine search no matter how old they are.. But when someone is too young, his ego is still developing.. One's ego should be completely developed before he starts seeking.. There are exceptions to this, but usually this is the case.

If a fly on your nose can bring it back, then it is definitely not nirvikalpa samadhi... There were people who were in Nirvikalpa samadhi and didn't have any consciousness even when the termites were biting their skin. But, yes no one stays in Nirivikalpa samadhi indefinitely.. It has to become Sahaja samadhi...

When I was a young boy, I heard about this from many books, especially from the Gospel of Ramakrishna Paramhamsa.. But it only made sense to me when I started reading Osho

I expanded the above poem and made it as a part of a story. The story is metaphoric and has a conversation between a seeker and an old man.. Read this and let me know your comments: You are the Truth Carrying the weight of past in my head And dragging the scenes which were old and dead, I ran to grab the bliss of the future; The more I ran, the more was the torture.. The torture of the hedonic treadmill Followed me as I continued uphill; I was caught in the prison of craving With tedious thoughts, my mind was raving. I met an ugly old man on the way who had a long thick beard with shades of grey. His face was shining with heavenly bliss; In his eyes I saw an endless abyss! "What makes you so happy in this rat race?", I asked him as he slowly turned his face. He replied,"The answer is within you! The grand kingdom of God is within you!" "That's a joke", I said "Are you kidding me?". "No!" He said, "Turn inward, you'll become free! You've made your own boundaries inside your mind, You've closed your eyes and think you've become blind". I said, "How can I get out of this trap? I want to find the way, give me the map" He said, "You're the way, the truth and the life! Be still and know you're that, and end this strife! You’re not your body and you’re not your mind; Not knowing the timeless truth makes you blind; You’re not your story and you’re not your thoughts; You’re not those age old, buried mental knots. You’re not that chattering voice in your head; You’re not anything that you did or said; You’re not anything that you have or know You’re the truth that is watching all this show! You’re not anything that can be perceived; You’re not an object that can be observed; You’re the screen where the world is being played; You’re the emptiness where the form is made. You’re the one witnessing the mind and breath; You’re one without two, beyond birth and death; Like the air trapped in a small round bubble, You feel separate which brings all the trouble. Inquire inside and wake up from this dream! Let truth alone shine like a bright white beam! By inquiry, your illusions will break; You’ll stop mistaking the rope for a snake" Hearing these words stopped my thoughts for a while. Looking in, I slowly began to smile. I watched my thoughts as they slowly passed by; I observed my mind like a secret spy. For years, I contemplated on his words; I watched my thoughts fly like a bunch of birds. One day, I woke up and realized the truth; Since then my life has been peaceful and smooth!

Here is my recent poem about non-duality or advaita, which has some pointers to contemplate for anyone who is seeking the truth: You’re not your body and you’re not your mind; Not knowing the timeless truth makes you blind; You’re not your story and you’re not your thoughts; You’re not those age old, buried mental knots. You’re not that chattering voice in your head; You’re not anything that you did or said; You’re not anything that you have or know You’re the truth that is watching all this show! You’re not anything that can be perceived; You’re not an object that can be observed; You’re the screen where the world is being played; You’re the emptiness where the form is made. You’re the one witnessing the mind and breath; You’re one without two, beyond birth and death; Like the air trapped in a small round bubble, You feel separate which brings all the trouble. Inquire inside and wake up from this dream! Let truth alone shine like a bright white beam! By inquiry, your illusions will break; You’ll stop mistaking the rope for a snake. – Shanmugam

@Annetta @egoeimai Thank you ... I have made an image with the poem... If anyone is good in making music and singing, then please compose a tune for it, sing it and upload it in Youtube... I know there are people with good composing skills looking for some lyrics.. And I am one of those guys who have lyrics but love to hear it in music..

I didn't read the book but there is a movie about that book and the life of Neal which I watched. I liked the movie very much and it was very touching. People can hear voices for sure and it can impact the person either negatively or positively. When the negative symptoms are predominant, it is diagnosed as Shizophrenia. But the experience of hearing voices and its impact can be positive as well and Neal Donald was a great example. This might also have happened in the life of Mohammed. When he says that he talked to God,I don't think he actually talked to a separate individual entity called God who rules this world with conscious thoughts, intentions and actions. God comes from his own mind. A person who never heard about God in his life may also hear such voices but the voice will probably introduce itself as somebody else but not God. (Because the word and the concept of God doesn't exist in his memory). Any such creation of mind, such as auditory and visual hallucination can be very vivid and seem very real but the information presented through these hallucinations will be always based on the information which is already stored in the memory or subconscious. It is possible to hear voices and see visuals in deep meditation or contemplation as well. This is exactly how Ramakrishna talked to Kali.

@Dan Arnautu Not at all... It is like fearing to travel in the road just because accidents happen..

@Dan Arnautu I am very skeptical about the claim that a metal can stop someone from leaving the body during Samadhi.. And, I have done some research on this topic and so far I haven't found anybody else other than Sadhguru saying something like this. Also, I did extensive research on whether it is common for people leaving the body during Samadhi or even enlightenment. Osho once said that about 90% of people leave the body on enlightenment. Sadhguru just repeats the same from Osho though he never mentions Osho at all (I am pretty sure that a lot of what Sadhguru says come from Osho. I have elaborated on this in my story here. ) But Osho once stated exactly the opposite when he talked about Vedanta. And he has openly admitted that he often contradicts himself, he is infallible and what he says may be factually incorrect but his main intention was to guide people on their awakening. Anyway, I was wondering if anybody else said that enlightenment and death happen at the same time for most of the people. I found a book by Lakshmanaswami (he says he got enlightened in the Ramana Mahirishi's presence) who says in that book that his disciple Saradama might have left her body during her enlightenment if he was not there to stop it. Also, Ramakrishna Paramhamsa used to say that a person leaves his body after being in Samadhi for 21 days in a row, unless that person knows how to come back from Samadhi. But when someone asked Ramana Mahirishi about this, he denied it. Just compare these two: By Ramakrishna: "When the Kundalini rises to the Sahasrara and the mind goes into samadhi, the aspirant loses all consciousness of the outer world. He can no longer retain his physical body. If milk is poured into his mouth, it runs out again. In that state the life-breath lingers for twenty-one days and then passes out. Entering the 'black waters' of the ocean, the ship never comes back. But the Isvarakotis, such as the Incarnations of God, can come down from this state of samadhi. They can descend from this exalted state because they like to live in the company of devotees and enjoy the love of God. God retains in them the 'ego of Knowledge' or the 'ego of Devotion' so that they may teach men. Their minds move between the sixth and the seventh planes. They run a boat-race back and forth, as it were, between these two planes. - The Gospel of ramakrishna volume 1 (Sunday, August 3, 1884) By Ramana Mahirishi: TALK 286: Seeker: Sri Ramakrishna says that nirvikalpa samadhi cannot last longer than twenty-one days. If persisted in, the person dies. Is it so? Ramana Mahirishi : When the prarabdha is exhausted the ego is completely dissolved without leaving any trace behind. This is final liberation. Unless prarabdha is completely exhausted the ego will be rising up in its pure form even in jivanmuktas. I still doubt the statement of the maximum duration of twenty-one days. It is said that people cannot live if they fast thirty or forty days. But there are those who have fasted longer, say a hundred days. It means that there is still prarabdha for them. Talk 391: Seeker: It is said that one remaining in nirvikalpa samadhi for 21 days must necessarily give up the physical body. Ramana Mahirishi: Samadhi means passing beyond dehatma buddhi (I-am-the-body idea) and non-identifcation of the body with the Self is a foregone conclusion. There are said to be persons who have been immersed in nirvikalpa samadhi for a thousand years or more. I also found the following verses from the scriptures: When the ego-sense gets completely dissolved, the body,the product of ego, gets disintegrated too. (Yogaśīkhopaniṣad, I.34) When the root-cause of Avidyā is destroyed, the body must perforce fall away. (Yoga-Vāsiṣṭha, III.92.6) ............................ My take on this after going through all this: Enlightened people are not scientists.. By this I mean they didn't conduct any extensive empirical research and find out such things. All they know about is their own experience, what they have seen in others and what they have read. So, nobody can say for sure that 90% of people leave the body during enlightenment. To state it as a fact, we must have enough statistics based on some empirical research. Also, it may not be really common for people to leave the body during Samadhi, it may have happened during a few instances because their bodies were extremely feeble. Since historically we have seen many enlightened people perfectly alive after enlightenment and after any intense Samadhi experiences, you really don't have to worry about this.

@Visitor wow, beautiful!

Recently, I became very curious about bridging science and enlightenment. So, I went through many articles, books, scientific papers etc that have addressed this subject so far and tried to create a synthesis. I put together everything in one article, citing all the sources. You can read it here: https://nellaishanmugam.wordpress.com/2017/06/13/is-there-a-scientific-evidence-for-spiritual-enlightenment/ It is very long one but I hope you enjoy it.

@Fidelio There are certain things a seeker will intuitively understand as he proceeds with the journey. He doesn't have to wait until enlightenment to know all those things... Even when you listen to a true Guru, you will intuitively understand what he says is true.. Eckhart Tolle talks about this as well. He says that when you hear something which is true, the truth in you will respond to it and say 'yes, this is true'. When I heard him saying, I could immediately resonate to it. I did go through a spiritual awakening three years ago. But I stopped seeing enlightenment as serving any purpose way long before that. Seeing enlightenment as a means to something is a trap. We don't have to make it very complicated. If you see enlightenment as a means to an end, thats fine for now. That is how every one has to start his journey.. There is nothing wrong in it. It is a part of the whole process. But slowly, as a person goes through his journey, he starts to crave for enlightenment. This is natural.. At one point in life, I wanted to 'be' enlightened at any cost. It was a life or death question.. But then I came across the perfect teaching I needed on time.. I heard 'You are already that, there is nothing to change, nothing to do, nowhere to go... '..I came across many teachings of Advaita. I also understood that the very desire that I have for enlightenment was actually delaying the whole thing. If I have heard this teaching when I started the journey, It would not have made any sense to me.. But it took another 6 years after I heard this teaching for me to go through a transformation.

@Anna1 As I was reading this thread, I couldn't stop laughing.... I am the one who is posting in the other forum in the name 'borris'...Leave the pure guy Prabhakar alone .. And thanks for making me laugh... The funniest joke I have come across after a long time...

@cetus56 Yes.. Even the intention to break the karmic bonds created suffering... But it is that intention that starts the spiritual seeking in the first place.. It is a paradox in spiritual life, but it is not a problem.. The Pali word for intention is 'Cetana', the most significant mental factor involved in the creation of karma.. Everyone starts spiritual seeking with an intention (to end suffering). But at one point, the whole spiritual seeking continues without the factor of intention..