Shanmugam

@egoless I still love them.. The word 'love' has different meaning to different people... For some, it is in the disguise of a need to be loved.. A need to be loved is not the same as love. It is not an attachment either. When you are attached to something because it is 'yours', it is not pure love. Needless to say, it is not a physical attraction. It is also not enjoying someone's company or admiration about a person. Love, when said in spiritual context, is something that is your real nature. It is unconditional and flows automatically just like the scent of a flower. The love between two partners is usually a combination of everything that I just said. But don't intellectualize it too much or worry about what is going to happen after enlightenment. I remember you saying in another thread (not completely sure if it was you), that you want to make sure that enlightenment is something worth that you have to pursue for... But that is what every human being is already searching for, knowingly or unknowingly. A human being's life is a journey from being limited and bound to being boundless and liberated. But I understand why people wonder things like 'what is it like to be enlightened'.. This is where logic ends. Because, you can use your logic and reasoning only on things you already know or understand. This is pretty similar to how a 8 year old boy would not understand about orgasm.

@egoless When a person is hungry, it is certainly painful. Any kind of physical discomfort is painful.. If you step on thorns or touch the fire, it is the same for both realized and unrealized people. But the feeling of miserable or victimized is not there... There is a Buddhist parable called 'The parable of two arrows'.. You can read it here: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html The feeling of unconditional love is not the same as an attachment towards a person. When I say I love everyone, it is a complete acceptance of the way people are and understand them why they behave the way they do. There is a sense of forgiveness.. But you also know that you are playing a role as a person for your family and friends..There is no need to change that role for any reason..

@egoless It is true that you tend to love everyone the same way.. But you also know that the people who are close to you expect more from you..

@egoless No.. I used to have a lot of quarrels with my wife before.. Enlightenment actually removes the aversion towards a person and allows a person to see things the way they really are.. This is actually good for relationship because you can understand any human being more than ever, including the ones you have close relationship with. You also understand that they expect certain things from you. But there is one thing what my wife complains about which is not a serious issue. I no longer participate with her the same way I used to, when it comes to worries and fears.. Usually, when you are worried about something, it feels good if there is another person who is also worried just like you... A simple example would be this: If you are late for school and worried of being punished, you may feel a little better when there is another person who is late and who is also worried just like you... It kind of soothes the worry. In my family we always run short of money... During those times, my wife used to worry a lot and but I would not be acting the same way... My wife used to scold me saying 'do you have any worry at all about the situation? You seem to not to care'.. I would only tell her this: Is worrying going to change anything?'... The usual tone of complaining and worrying is not there anymore, which might be difficult to accept for some people who are close to you. But this is not really a problem because you can understand your partner more than ever. But certain things seem to happen effortlessly... It is as if the existence is taking care of everything. You act when you are supposed to act, but you don't ruminate.. Another example would be when I resigned my previous job and moved to my hometown. I was not having a job for about two months. Everybody including my parents started worrying about me.. But I was acting as if nothing has happened.. One day I casually applied for some jobs and forgot about it. In the next week, I got a call and I joined another job which is better for me in every way... Everything that used take more of my energy and time takes much lesser time and energy now.

@egoless ha ha... The question here will be 'who is going to go back?' But if there is a choice to raise that old 'me' from the dead, which is what you are talking about, then absolutely no... Will certainly not go back no matter what... This is priceless.. There is a period of integration which is challenging but it is not a draw back... It is similar to a culture shock.

@egoless Good.. but enlightenment ends any kind of seeking to reach anywhere... There will be absolutely no need to look forward to tomorrow, next month, next year etc.. It is the ultimate fulfillment and the real death of 'me' as a person.. There will not be two versions of the 'me' anymore: 'how I am' vs 'how I want to be'... But you can still function in the relative reality just like anyone else. The difference between the two will be pretty much the same as 'a real man suffering from the loss of his wealth' and 'an actor in a movie who acts in a similar scene''...You may have to put a face in the society. This happens to everyone.. It is better not to imagine how it is going to be after enlightenment or think 'what I will do after enlightenment', because it is always misunderstood.. Even the glimpse doesn't give a complete idea, because once the glimpse is over, it is pretty much the remembrance while the life is still in duality. And, mind is pretty good in distorting memories.

@egoless I used to think the same way for years.. But actually, enlightenment can be either gradual or sudden.. There is a historical debate about this in Zen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subitism. Each school argues that their version is correct. But it has happened in both ways... For me, the destruction of my sense of self and merging in non-duality was gradual.. It went on for two months. But a clear recognition and a clarity of what happened was instant. It was a sudden clarity that happened when I was lying on my bed. It was clear, evident and obvious by that moment that my search was over and what I was always looking for had happened. Most importantly, enlightenment is like a rebirth. You can't really have the cake and eat it at the same time.. I think you may be missing something here. It is like passing through a fire, putting everything at stake... At one point, you have to even sacrifice the desire for enlightenment. There has to be a complete surrender to the existence..

@egoless @Leo Gura Vajrayana Buddhism, Tantra and Kundalini yoga are all pretty much based on the same concept.. They visualize and concentrate on either one or all of the following: A centre in the body, a deity associated with the centre, a geometrical shape and a mantra... Usually they combine all of this. It is a kind of focused meditation and works similar to other concentration practices like shamatha etc... But this is not the same as what egoless is talking about. It is certainly not this: if I visualize my change after Enlightenment and I visualize how powerful my meditation and profound understanding is @egoless I am telling you again.. You seem to have misunderstood the whole thing.. You want to 'become' enlightened.. It seems to me that you are seeing enlightenment as something you get, at least unconciously... That is NEVER going to happen and it has not happened to anyone... You will lose yourself in enlightenment...

@pedro23 May I ask how old you are..

@phoenix666 my life is full of coincidences, the recent ones are related to Osho. My son was born on Dec 11th last year, which is Osho's birthday. I wrote a book this year, wanted to publish it on Dec 11th but decided to publish it on November 22nd.. I ordered a copy for myself immediately, the payment failed and shipping delayed, called customer service and he offered express shipping for free.. And the book was delivered exactly on Dec 11th this year. Also, I was discussing something on Quora with a lady named Savita regarding Osho. We were discussing a specific topic (regarding blindly the following someone) and while discussing I saw her profile and found out that she had written a book about Osho. I googled her named and landed upon a Youtube video in which she was talking about her book. Once the video was over, the Youtube automatically played the next video, which was exactly the topic we were discussing. And Osho was saying in that video exactly what I had been thinking for a while. Here is the video: The topic of this video is pretty much the last chapter in my book and I had also mentioned a little bit about this coincidence.

Felt like drawing this today...

@phoenix666 Witnessing... It is actually a form of self-inquiry. When done correctly, it is extremely powerful. And, it is not even a doing. Read these talks by Osho: http://www.satrakshita.com/witnessing_the_only_meditation.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/the_inside_mirror.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/remaining_a_witness.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/witnessing_a_simple_phenomenon.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/watchfulness.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/awareness_a_transforming_force.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/witnessing_the_last_frontier.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/bliss.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/the_observer_is_not_the_witness.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/witnessing_not_an_experience.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/the_fire_of_witnessing.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/choicelessness_is_bliss.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/witnessing_is_so_easy.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/alchemy_of_real_religion.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/satyam_shivam_sundram.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/the_appearance_of_the_new.htm http://www.satrakshita.com/the_witness_the_inner_voice.htm

@Alien No.. the lady is not speaking anything absurd.. She is simply saying how science works... First of all, don't confuse between the absolute and relative truth.. Absolute truth is self-evident... It is the basis of your existence.. There is no need of any external evidence for absolute truth... It is who you are.. people are just identified with things in the relative domain that they forget who they are.. But everything you use in the relative world belongs to relative truth. Don't hold any grudge against science and don't think that scientists are ignorant or arrogant. A true scientist is a humble person, more humble than people who would want to believe in anything... People create some stereotyping that doesn't make sense.. Science is neither in competition with spiritual path nor it is against the spiritual path. It is just a careful method works based on verifiable evidence. It is because of science and technology I am writing this message here and you are reading it. There is a lot of misunderstanding about how science works.. Everyone uses the scientific method to some extent unknowingly.. It is similar to how police investigate to find the person who committed a murder.. The first man who learned to use the fire obviously did it by scientific method unknowingly.. He must have noticed some fire while rubbing two stones... He formed a hypothesis that rubbing two stones caused a fire. He experimented with it, again and again, to make sure that the friction between two stones is actually what is causing the fire... This is pretty much the gist of the scientific method. The scientific method used in modern days is just a refined way, which makes sure that there are no errors. Also, don't indulge in the game of discussing who is ignorant, who is unconscious, who is speaking absurd etc... That is taking a backward step, it is a trap. Just because a person is meditating or doing a self-inquiry, he is not superior to anyone else.

@Shin I have seen people doing it.. Especially if the title of a thread is a question...

@egoless Why are you looking for spiritual enlightenment or any progress in spirituality at all? Do you think it is going to give you a better version of your 'personal self'? .. What do you understand by the term 'spiritual enlightenment'? Just speak from your heart and say why you are looking for it.. Also, How did you come to know about spiritual enlightenment, how long you have known about it and what practices are you doing? Because any answer I can give you really depends on what you have understood so far. I suspect there has been a misunderstanding in your mind regarding the whole thing.. Just trying to help..

@egoless If I have some idea about the truth, I may be mistaken... But I don't have an 'idea' about the truth... It is living reality.. The moment I search for words to describe how evident it is, I can't find words at all. I can't even find a 'me' or 'I'... Thats why I don't say 'i am enlightened'''. That is the weirdest thing to say, at least for me... The whole concept consisting of 'enlightenment', a seeker of enlightenment, a path to enlightenment and attaining enlightenment is a joke and a lie told to people for good reasons.. It is in the context of this lie, authentic gurus say 'I am enlightened'... It is just to help people. The only reason why anyone would get deluded in thinking he is enlightened (when he is actually not), is because he wants to show him in a positive light to others or to even himself.. Because, the ego of a seeker actually sees an 'enlightened' state as an ideal state to reach, which the seeker himself might not be consciously aware of. But since the whole process of seeking itself is to completely dis-identify with the ego, ego will somehow try to enter through backdoor and reassert its existence.. And the best way that it can do this job is to make the person believe that he is enlightened. For the ego, enlightenment is a status to attain. Does any of this make sense to you? When I see the posts you have made in some of the threads, I wonder if you have actually understood what enlightenment is all about or not...So, tell me, how would you describe enlightenment in your own words.. And tell me why you are looking for it..

@egoless Let me repeat what I said in another post: I am not sure how many people in this forum have actually visited his ashram regularly (every week), done the courses, bought expensive consecrated spaces, read a lot of his books, videos and also attended his satsangs. But I have done it all. I live in Tamilnadu. Do you know where it is? The state in red is Tamil Nadu... Do you know where Sadhguru's Ashram is? It is in Coimbatore, a city in Tamil Nadu.. I lived in Coimbatore for two years.. I am not saying what I am saying after I read just a book by Sadhguru. I am saying what I am saying after I have been associated with him and the ashram for 14 years... Do you know how long is 14 years? Anyway, I am not ready to argue with you... I know people can be easily fooled by him. I would have said what Leo said just two years ago.. If you had asked me about Sadhguru before 5 years, I would have said everything Leo said, word by word...

@Monkey-man Can't really say that... ... When it comes to Sadhguru, I have said that because of a lot of reasons that I have already explained in the link https://nellaishanmugam.wordpress.com/2017/12/12/why-do-i-criticize-sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev/ . And also in the following links: https://www.quora.com/Is-Sadhguru-a-hoax-How-did-he-heal-his-asthma-and-ankle-fracture-in-an-hour-09-15/answer/Shanmugam-P-12 https://www.quora.com/Is-Sadghuru-Jagi-Vasudev-another-scam/answer/Shanmugam-P-12 Sadhguru is a man of social service, general life advice and a person who makes a lot of extraordinary claims without proving even a single thing till date.. But he never really gives much useful advice for enlightenment itself. But when he just repeats what he read from Osho's books, it is useful. The problem is, he mixes it with his own ideas and people cannot discriminate. And I have seen a lot of inconsistencies and obvious loopholes in many things he said, which has shown me without a doubt that he is lying a lot. Apart from these observations, I have nothing against him. He is a talented guy and business minded. When it comes to other gurus, I cannot say such a thing since I have not known anybody else as much as I know about Sadhguru, Osho, Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and a few others... I have also read Eckart Tolle's books and I have found his teachings direct and certainly useful when it comes to enlightenment. I have not seen a problem with anybody else other than Sadhguru. If you enjoy listening to him just for entertainment, there is no problem. But if anyone is looking for spiritual enlightenment, I can say very confidently that his talks would distract you from the path and give you many wrong ideas about enlightenment.

In case anyone actually plans 'What I will do after my enlightenment', I can bet all my money that you will laugh at your own plans one day... .. No matter how much you think about your life after awakening, you will someway unconsciously assume that there is going to be some amount of duality..

@snowleopard I just remembered something I read days before, and it seems to be perfectly in alignment with trinity.. According to what you quoted: Dhammakaya is the truth body, which is the Father in trinity; Nirmanakaya is the body that is manifest; which is the Son in trinity; Samboghakaya is the body of bliss and pure energy, which is Holy spirit in Trinity.. ....................................................................... Dhammakaya is really not a body in the physical sense, it just figuratively refers to the absolute truth itself; Dhamma means truth in Pali language.. This is the Father in Trinity... Now read the below Buddhist sutta (It is a conversation between Buddha and another person, in which Buddha speaks the following).. Buddha says that one who is enlightened, can say that I am the true son of Dhamma... i.e. true Son of the Father... And Jesus also said 'I am the Son of God'...He actually meant he was the son of truth, as per this Buddhist verse.. There are already theories that say that Jesus was in India between age 12-30 and many suspect he was a Buddhist student, some people say he was an Yogi. All this seem to be very interesting. I will continue to do more research on this..

@egoless Ok.. It is always good to read stuff that is contradictory to your assumptions.. It is a test for open-mindedness.. I used to do that a lot.. And a way to test if you are really being open-minded when you read or listen to something is to check if you are mentally preparing objections while you read/listen to it... If I am thinking what to say next when a person is talking to me, I am obviously not paying attention to him. You may already know this, but just a reminder.

@egoless Here is another link: https://zaysen.quora.com/False-Sadhguru-Jaggi-Vasudev-His-Enlightenment-Isha-Cult-Empire-As-It-Is .. But I have to admit that the guy who has written that is biased and has written it in a tone of hatred. Still, everything he says has a lot of truth in it. Much of what he says can be verified.

@egoless Regarding Sadhguru, you need to give one thing to consideration. I am not sure how many people in this forum have actually visited his ashram regularly (every week), done the courses, bought expensive consecrated spaces, read a lot of his books, videos and also attended his satsangs. But I have done it all. And I used to believe in everything he says just like many people in the forum do. He lives in our state and he is currently facing very strong criticism all over the state for many reasons. There are intelligent people who can just read a lot of books and speak out everything they read. Sadhguru is one of them. He has certainly went through some spiritual experience but I doubt if he ever went beyond that. When I criticize him, there are obvious reasons. But if you don't have enough open-mindedness to see it, then you will miss it.. Once I started criticising Sadhguru in this forum once, people immediately started arguing that paranormal stuff is real. But what they miss is, I am not questioning whether paranormal is real or not, I am questioning if Sadhguru really has them... Here is a post from another blogger that I know: https://ksmphanindra.wordpress.com/2017/11/02/the-controversial-death-of-sadhgurus-wife-vijji/ Read it open-mindedly and see if you can resolve the questions which are raised. And this is just one of them. There are many others I can give you. Read the above post first, and then read this: https://nellaishanmugam.wordpress.com/2017/12/12/why-do-i-criticize-sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev/ But remember, be open minded... Because I know that it may hurt you. Don't take anything personal...

@egoless I have studied both Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity.. Also Islam to some extent... I was a deeply religious person from age 7 to 20... And after that, I couldn't imagine a personal God who is love but at the same time expects prayers and worship and punishes evildoers... After all these years, now I see that religion is a corrupted version of spirituality. True spirituality is hidden behind almost every religion. By the way, Sadhguru doesn't say he is religious and he is completely against prayers and worship, even though there are religious symbols in the ashram. He says that it is all science. And I have seen enough of his lies in the last 13 years.