Shanmugam

Yes... As I said enlightened people know very well that the more information you accumulate regarding existential topics, there is always a tendency to get identified with that knowledge, believe in it, get identified with it and even conditioned by it. But as I also stated, there are always exceptions. You are probably an exception if you think this is working for you. But I have seen enough people who get a new 'conditioning' or 'attachment' to even non-dual teachings.. But this doesn't mean that it is a rule to follow. It is not a moral code or value. You can live whichever way you want; and as you stated yourself somewhere, there are no such rules in the absolute levels.. I only talk in terms of what works and what doesn't work. So, when you say that I am forcing my values on others, I would only say that it is a wrong assumption. Probably it gives that connotation because I state things very assertively and clearly. But it is always related to what works better, what works and what may work and what doesn't work at all.

Not required to apologize; nothing is taken personally.

Because enlightened people know very well that the more information you accumulate regarding existential topics, there is always a tendency to get identified with that knowledge, believe in it, get identified with it and even conditioned by it. Not only philosophy, too much theoretical knowledge related to spiritual enlightenment is also not encouraged. This is really not a generalized assumption and this is also not an exception but a rule. Very rarely there may be a few people who may not get attached, not just believe in the theory and can withstand any kind of conditioning. But a lot of such conditioning happens unconsciously and people don't realize that it is happening. I am also a student of psychology, which I learned on my own interests as a hobby. Psychology does have a lot of authentic stuff regarding how a typical human mind works. Conditioning and learning behaviors is also a topic in psychology. As long as there is duality, there is always a tendency to slowly get conditioned to see things with certain new fixated paradigms..

Yes... But please understand the purpose of my book. The book is about bridging science and spirituality; I was very careful and worded every single word carefully to make sure that the book appeals to both seekers as well as scientists, especially psychology. And this is the role I am playing; people would call this is because of karma, but I have even explained the foundations of karma in my book so that it appeals to both seekers as well as scientists (including the common people who prefer scientific method for everything) and rationalists alike. I have also made sure that it is culturally neutral. In spite of all of this, you will notice that I have stated in my book that there is no feeling of 'other'. If I looked at it one way, I am everything and I am what all that exists; on the other way, there is no separate or fragmented 'me' in relation to an 'other'...

Yes.. There is genuine peace in just being.... an unquestionable ontology.

I must admit I never studied philosophy separately.. But just studying philosophy usually takes one nowhere. It may start an inquiry and an interest in the spiritual path. That is all it can do. Other than that, studying merely philosophy would not help when it comes to spiritual enlightenment. In fact, it is totally unnecessary as far as the spiritual path is concerned and is often seen as a distraction.

That is right, but Rene Descartes didn't mean it that way either.. His intended meaning was kind of like this: 'I can doubt the existence of anything.. but since I doubt and this doubt is undeniable, there certainly exists something in which the doubt arises; I doubt therefore I am!"

The above definition of idealism is from wiki. This approach is actually good for inquiry.. But philosophy usually stops here... The only way to take it further is by walking on a spiritual path. Once the direct experience of truth has happened, the need for a lot of philosophical questions will disappear.

When I was 8 years old, I heard about 'sex' for the very first time and I came to know that babies are actually born this way.. Before that, I used to ask my grandma 'If God is putting the child inside a woman's womb, how come only married women give birth to a child?' and she said 'because God knows who is married' .. But when a boy who was a little older than me explained what sex is, I couldn't believe it. I asked some adults that I knew. They laughed and said that 'married people have sex almost every day'... I asked them 'Why?, just doing it once is not enough for pregnancy?'... But I never understood why they do it until I experienced sexual attraction directly when I was an adolescent. That cleared all my doubts.. @Joseph Maynor Try applying this as a metaphor to spiritual enlightenment.

oh ok. I didn't know that there was one such sub-forum..

You are right! But there is a difference between believing something and knowing something through direct experience.. Until you know it through direct experience, just believing it is not encouraged. People are only asked to be open to this idea and practice self-inquiry/meditation until they know it through direct experience.

@Joseph Maynor Since you are more inclined towards philosophy, let me talk about Rene Descartes, the most misunderstood man in spiritual circles.. He made a statement 'I think, therefore I am' which is kind of wrong translation of the original Latin phrase 'cogito ergo sum'.. By this statement, he meant that you can doubt the existence of anything and you would never know if they actually exist. But to doubt the existence of anything, there needs to be 'doubter'. In other words, there is no way to deny your own existence but you can possibly deny the existence of anything else... Who is the You, which is undeniable? That is where self-inquiry starts..

This comes from a basic misunderstanding of what enlightenment is.. Yes, I think most of us saw your question and your reference to 'ontology'... But this forum is not for philosophy.. The words used by me and many other people here are not for literal, intellectual contemplation. They are just devices for the direct experience of truth. You can find forums related to philosophy where all the subtopics under philosophy can be deeply discussed. In the path of enlightenment, certain philosophical concepts like epistemology have value.. In fact, when people talk about knowing something through 'direct experience', they do talk about a means of knowledge which is also discussed in epistemology. Other than that, intellectual contemplation really takes you nowhere when it comes to the spiritual path. My point is, your question has a validity in philosophy but people in the spiritual path are usually more inclined to answer it in the ways which you witnessed in the answers. If you want to discuss philosophy, try suggesting Leo to open a new sub-forum for philosophy... (Just a suggestion)

@Shanmugam "In his live enlightenment video (as a reference) when he experiences there is no “me”, he’s referring to Leo the human (the absolute realizing Leo is its own maya). When he says it’s all me, I don’t die, etc, he’s pointing at the absolute that ‘he’ actually is. One’s experience and therefore meaning of the word “me”, is the difference, but it can not be understood, it must be experienced directly" Spot on... When this is the moment to moment experience of reality, the seeking is over... In the dualistic terms when it is said that he/she is enlightened, this how one experiences the reality every moment.

wow... This is exactly what I was trying to say in the other thread, where the topic was about hell... How come you are very clear here but were still disagreeing with me before? .. Are you on any psychedelics right now?

Learning to understand such differences in the language and terminology is very important! Your username suits you I have a chapter in my book 'Problem with Words' which is dedicated to explain a few things regarding this. It covers multiple topics; one of them is 'semantic discord'.. Whoever has bought my book, I suggest to read that chapter again. Once you understand it perfectly well, you will see one more possibility which causes disagreements even though there is essentially none. It is a good idea to keep this in mind whenever there is a tendency in your mind to disagree with something that is said by anybody in this forum.. I did research on this by carefully looking at the nature of online conversations in the last one and a half years and trying to find out the cause of disagreements. This topic itself deserves a separate book. If I were a professional psychologist, I would have published a research paper on that by now and published for peer review..

Here are the words of Osho from this talks titled 'The Beginning of the Beginning'... It is not a dream life to you; it is real. When you see a dream the dream is real. Somebody who has awakened from sleep may go on saying that whatsoever you are seeing is just a dream, but the person who is dreaming, he is dreaming a reality, not a dream. In a dream, howsoever absurd, you cannot feel it as a dream. You believe in it, because once you feel it is a dream the dream disappears. The dream cannot remain there, your cooperation is withdrawn. You can cooperate only with reality, not with dreams; and if you cooperate dreams become reality -- it is through your cooperation. In the night, deep in sleep, you dream that you have become a king. You may be a beggar, or vice versa: you may be a king and you dream that you have become a beggar. But in that dream you are so identified you cannot think that it could be a dream. If you can think that it could be a dream, the dream will stop immediately. It will be broken, you will come out of it. If you realize in dream that it is a dream the dream is broken, the dream cannot exist. It exists through your cooperation, your identification is needed. If you are committed to it, if you get involved in it, only then can it continue. And the same happens with the greater dream which is life. When you realize this is a dream, immediately you have become a Buddha, you are enlightened. But this enlightenment cannot happen to you by others' knowing, others' wisdom. Buddha may go on calling to you that this is a dream you are living, but you will only feel that this man is a disturbance, a constant nuisance, he is disturbing your life. That's why we kill such persons. Socrates -- we poisoned him because he was a great disturber. Jesus -- we crucified him because he was a nuisance. Everybody is dreaming such beautiful dreams, and these persons unnecessarily, and without being invited, go on disturbing people and saying to them, "Wake up! You are dreaming. This is a dream." And the man may have been dreaming such a beautiful thing that he could throw away all life for that dream. If you become alert a dream disappears; if you become alert of your misery, the misery disappears. You cling to it because you think it is not misery, or some happiness is hidden somewhere in it. It may be misery outwardly, but a deep treasure is hidden behind it, so you have to cling to it for that treasure. Your life is misery -- but not for you. Realize its misery, it falls down. The very truth transforms you. And the moment misery falls the divine is revealed. To a miserable mind the divine cannot be revealed. To a celebrating mind the divine is revealed. Remember, only to a celebrating mind, to a mind which is happy, blissful, enjoying moment to moment, ecstatic, is the divine revealed. To a miserable mind the divine cannot be revealed, because a miserable mind is closed. The divine is here and now, but you are not here and now. If you are also here and now then the divine will be revealed to you.

There are 7 billion people on the earth. 7 billion! Just think about it for a moment.. And each person is different. You don't know everyone.. Of course, there are some tendencies that a typical human being has and that is what psychology is all about. But that doesn't mean that you really know another person completely. Every individual knows every step that he has taken, every thought that he has encountered and every experience that he has lived through. But I know that at least I haven't had a chance to even glimpse another person's private subjective experience even once.. I only know others by inference.. Many threads in this forum are filled with conversations which started just because one person made an assumption about another person. It is not wrong to make assumptions. I don't moralize anything! But you need to have the self honesty to realize that your assumption could be wrong. You can't really come to any conclusions about another person's attitude, experience, progress etc based on the words he is using. Because, one thing that I have learnt is that, words can betray the meaning that was intended to convey by the person who used those words... Also, don't get trapped in the game of comparison. As soon as you realize that spiritual enlightenment is what you are seeking, you also need to realize that it is not a competition. It is not about proving who is more or less enlightened than you. It doesn't have anything to do with the rat race that any typical human being is a part of. If you really want to compare, then compare what you are now vs what you were two years ago. Spiritual enlightenment is not based on how many books you have read, you much you know, how much wiser you are, how better you are than another person or what kind of mystical, magical, bizarre, one of a kind experiences that you went through... It is about freedom, a complete freedom from anything that can imprison you.. Spiritual enlightenment is not self-improvement; the spiritual path begins with an inquiry about that 'self' which wants to improve... This forum is filled with people who want to say "folks, you don't understand what I have understood; You are wrong! I am wiser than all of you.. You are wasting your time whereas I am the only one who is the authority.. I am fucking right and you are fucking wrong".... No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just think about it and see if it resonates with you. And Just because I am saying all this, it doesn't mean that I am superior.. If you want, then consider me as a stupid, brainless asshole who is wasting his time... After all, who am I to tell you what you should be doing? .. Be selfish when it comes to your spiritual path. I may be a moron who is wasting his time and who doesn't have any fucking clue about what is true.. But is it important to you? What is more important to you is what you really want from the bottom of your heart.

Rupert Spira is indeed amazing.. If you can't resonate with Rupert Spira, then you may need to seriously reconsider what you are trying to do in this forum...

@Faceless The language is the culprit.. not me..

... Wonderful poem..

@Natasha No worries.. I will call you Ma Lolsha.. Good to see a different profile pic but it is low resolution.. I wish I could know how you really look. I always wondered about many people in this forum... How do they actually look like? It becomes more personal when we can see that person..

Read the poems of Rumi... He is a mystic poet.. Any Rumi fans here?

God is real.. And He is Love! You are God and this is true... It is not a person but it is, or He is, everything! Yes..everything!!! He makes me to do anything that I do and he creates this drama of life.. I don't do anything, it is all done by Him... He makes me to type, makes me to act and makes me to do everything..