WaterfallMachine

I want to look into my options. Anyone care to share?

It reminds me of Karen Horney's research in neurotic needs.

I'm not in Stage Yellow, but I'm moving into it more everyday. So, can we clarify: 1. how to move into stage yellow effectively? Take time to listen to other's views. Complete everything below self actualization in Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Notice that in Green, you're often judging others for judging others which is hypocrisy. Yellow is when a person in Green realizes that he has to stop thinking everyone and their ideas are equal — and try to make a decision on what's best. But it's no longer in the close mindedness of Blue or the selfishness of Orange — it's with openness and compassion. I recommend looking into changing paradigms or searching on Google paradigm shaking books. That's what allows for the biggest changes in perspectives. Also, grab some systems theory books while you're at it. 2. the differences between stage yellow and stage turquoise? I don't know much about it. But Stage Green is supposed to be when we begin to have good intentions for the world. Stage Yellow is when we take time to understand the problems in the world and our life better. Stage Turquoise is when we use that understanding more deeply in strategic action. 3. how growing psychologically is relevant to enlightenment? Enlightenment is often a difficult path to take when you're having other difficulties in life. It's like you're carrying too many stacks of plates at once making it toppling over. Enlightenment in my and other's experiences can be a beautiful path but also a very stress inducing one — be careful. 4. how growing psychologically is relevant to life purpose? When you want to change others for the better, you have to change yourself for the better too. Your body and mind is the medium of which you interact and observe the world. Develop it well. 5. which systems we should be studying, based on what it is we want from life? It depends on what you want. Simple as that. But I think of Systems thinking as not just what specific thing to study but an abstract form of thinking that can apply to almost your whole life. If you read on systems theory, you'll understand more. I'm reading Systems Thinking : A Primer, a bestselling book on the subject, if you want a recommendation. 6. how to strike a balance between using systems thinking in self-serving vs world-serving ends? I often make myself a priority before I help others? Why? Because when I'm happy and satisfied, the more I'm willing to help out. In contrast to being stressed and depressed about all this effort. I remember a metaphor from Headspace that was used in meditation but can also be used here. Imagine holding a horse in with a short rope on its legs. Letting it run around in that narrow space. But then as time passes, you can slowly allow the horse to run more freely as you gradually untie and lengthen the rope. Don't force the growth. Flow into it.

I used to feel frustrated with these types of people too but there's another perspective here. Calling people close minded can be rather black and white. That makes you demonize this person as ignorant not just generally but in all ways. But recognize that everyone knows something that you don't. They had different problems in life to face. Different lessons. Different experiences. Different interests. Different people to meet. So when I'm forced to listen to a person like this, I think : Even if they're mostly wrong, is there truth to it? Even the smallest ones? There was a biography called My Lobotomy of a man with an emotionally abusive childhood who spent a large portion in life doing crimes, drugs and having lots of sex. His life was incredibly shallow — but he gave me one major lesson I treasured. He was always being moved from one place to another without his control. And because he was never given a proper education, he didn't have much power to change his circumstances. So at least, he'd let loose and have fun. That was how he found control in his life. And while it's being used wrongly in letting things too loose — it was still a good lesson in moderation. I was stressed that day and took everything seriously — but after that, I relaxed and laughed it off. Listening to people like this also allows you to know what ignorance is like. You don't fix ignorance like any other problem by forcing it on to someone but by taking time to understand what it's like without criticism. Sometimes people become more open when you become open to them. But if they don't — at least try to learn from them if they won't learn from you. At least you'd know what to avoid.

I don't really define a specific amount of time for each. I just listen to my body. How tired am I feeling? How stressed I am by all the changes I'm putting in my life? Often when I leave the "serious work", I start to miss it somehow. I get a sense of meaningless and loss of purpose in not following my own goals in life. So that gets me back. Other people do schedule breaks and schedule work time. I used to do more. But the deeper I go into personal development, I just get out of "serious work" and "fun time" naturally. Maybe it's because sometimes they're the same thing.

It differs. It isn't always the same pattern in a graph. That's why there tends to be different equations for a piecewise function. The real world isn't always predictable. It's like the story of a turkey who's being fed everyday and thought his owner had good intentions for it. That is, only for it to realize that the owner was planning to fatten him up as a meal. People can get lost in seeing the same pattern and thinking it would always last. (Credits for this example is the author named Nassim Taleb.) There are a lot of factors. Nassim Taleb talked about two concepts called Mediocristan and Extremesian. Mediocrisian has to stay within a certain range, more stable, and doesn't have much differences. While Extremesian can have extreme differences, more risky and more unpredictable. Imagine that if you take a random amount of adult human beings from the Earth and most of them would stay within a certain height. Rarely is anyone beyond seven feet or smaller than 3 feet. That's Mediocristan. Then imagine the example of a country with a small amount of rich people and a huge amount of people in poverty for Extremesian. The rich can have millions while the poor can be barely living with a dollar a day. How wide or narrow the differences are is a concept I've often heard from Statistics. And personal development seems to have a mix of that. Sudden changes — like a man hearing from his doctor that he has a high risk for a severe disease would either give up or push forth in major action. But there are also gradual ones such as how a teenager learns about life as they grow up. People are often affected by how extreme or in the middle their environment is. Personal development becomes more regular once the movement is controlled by the person. If someone can earn wisdom, discipline, compassion and more, their skills would stay with them even as they lose the external resources they have. But there could also be drastic changes so drastic that they'd get torn apart by it. They relapse. I've went through large changes. I've went through many relapses. I went through many periods of barely any growth because I kept repeating the same mistakes. I notice the more time passes, the smoother the flow of my efforts come. I don't force it to come to the point of overwork. I don't get so lazy that I'd waste too much time. It becomes a reinforcing feedback loop. The more experience allows me to gain experience even faster. The more discipline, the more compassion, the more technical skills, the more this and that makes it even faster. I don't just learn these skills. I've learned how to gain skills well. And that's a much deeper kind of knowledge everyone would be glad to have.

I never really introduced myself properly haven't I? Maybe it's time I tell you what's life been like with meditation even before. Rewind to 2012 or 2013, where I was about 11 or 12. I remember sitting in a car, the sun sitting in the sky, the trees and the cars shifting by. I was listening to a guided meditation. And I noticed they kept moving off to the next thing without me. I was too slow in focusing. I kept daydreaming about being some hero in a virtual reality game. And with fear, I wondered if I could really do all this. I was worried back then. Worried about what? Everything. I worried about my health. I worried about my future. I worried about my grades. I worried about being loved. I worried about being watched. I worried about being irrational. Worrying, worrying and worrying to the point of terror sometimes. Pretty early for a kid to be worrying about life like that, huh? Someday I realized that I had the whole internet full of advice and I found meditation. After all, the greatest lost I had back then was the lost of curiosity. I was the bright eyed kid who was somehow both the class nerd and the class clown. Often sitting upon pillows in the library. Often relaxing as I flip pages and other times running away laughing from pranks. I read things from fun facts about animals to machines. I read about the history of the Greeks to the daring lives of real life spies. I made origamis and I often drew from art books. I read stories upon stories. I was interested in about every part of the children's library. And I hoped in my heart that this sense of wonder would come back. One of the things I've often read were question and answer advice sites online — my first taste of the personal development world. I read but I never really acted on them. I even prided on just knowing them — but this was when I had to actually do them. For years along with other practices I'd meditate everyday. Or at least try to. I'd always do so in the bus to school in the morning and sometimes in the afternoon. I researched what I could on this subject and I'd practice focusing through the day and through the night. Around 14, sometimes I would lose the ability to read. All my worrying had consumed all of my brain power and what was left for me to do the thing I loved most disappeared. I remember sitting on the couch pouring over a book and desperately glaring at it to read ; but I . . . I couldn't focus. And the tears would start to come. This would add in my life an even greater obsession with the practice. There were days when I meditated 2-3 hours a day. By 15, I'd stop repeating the old practices and begin with newer ones. The closest thing to the idea of enlightenment I had was an existential depression I had when I was 15. In one of Leo's infinity videos, he'd mention that Georg Canter was able to conceptualize infinity or non duality but because he did not experience it directly, it drew him to madness. I might have experienced something similar. I asked myself one day : Why do I believe this exists? Take any object. Why do I believe this chair exists? Because I see it. Why do I think what I see exists? Because other people have always told me. Why do I believe that? And I understood — there was nothing to add foundation to that. I've read in history books before that people could experience dangerous things because humanity was ignorant. Doctors didn't use to know that washing their hands before surgery was needed. They used to have wallpaper that was radioactive. They used to think sugar was healthy. I was on too doubting much of reality here — if I had Leo's videos, it would allow me to be more open minded in ways that can help me. But without the grounding of direct experience — this experience of nothingness enligtenment wasn't calming — it was strikingly, absolutely and fucking terrifying. Somewhere I decided that there really nothing else to it. Beliefs have to start with faith somewhere. Every belief does. And after reading some online advice, I spent more time in my life doing to answer questions than just theorizing. And realizing and acting upon slowly that my time spent alone too much was one of the major reasons I was suffering. All the time spent in mindfulness would add up — and soon I can focus on something I find interesting for hours. As well as make goofy and overdramatic jokes with other people like I did as a kid — heh. I had a favorite Buddhist concept after all. That was beginner's mind — it is to act as you know nothing about the subject. And be open to observe what else could happen. To see the subtle change of breath. Its movements. The small changes in the mind, thoughts and emotions that happened every second. It was impermeance. And if things were always changing, then there was always something interesting to learn every second. But also the idea that truth changes because the world is changing. . . And so beliefs had to be change as well. My awareness would grow exponentially. Growing and growing and growing to the forefront of everyday life. I've never been so amazed and awed by the smallest things — when you see everything as if for the first time. I used this in meditation. . . but it also became a way of life..

I'm surprised I can still feel terrible. But it's still different. It's as if my negative emotions have become much less of a burden then it is like listening to amazing music. The music expresses it genuinely whether it's good or bad, and somehow either way, it's still beautiful. Beautiful. I don't use that word a lot. I left that to the artists. The poets. The musicians. The actors and actresses. There are more interesting and useful words like accurate, objective, true, false and logic isn't there? It's as if by removing my preconceptions of what my self is, another side of me emerges. Why for all these past months I've been moving from superficial warmth to genuine warmth. It came to me that maybe this is what I should dedicate my life to — find a way for logic and emotion to mix. Something in technology or a program that's as accurate as much as it gives off warmth. I don't know how I'll do it but if I can get this far, I bet I'll figure it out. It seemed to me that to find what I truly wanted and cared for, I had to strip off all the assumptions I had in life. I thought I was open minded. I thought I was rational enough. I thought I questioned society. I questioned people. But I didn't question the questioners. I didn't question that I questioned the questioners. Somehow like how Leo does with his videos. The atheists science people question the fundamentalists theist. Then Leo questions both of them and finds an alternative that goes further than that in idealism. To think beyond our time is to think beyond the people who you think is beyond our time. Do you know Leo's guided meditation on No Self? It was basically stripping off your cultural beliefs, spiritual beliefs, religious beliefs, scientific beliefs,beliefs about what you own, beliefs about the world, beleifs about your life philosophies and values, beliefs about your emotions and about your thoughts. Then imagining what it's like to be in a world where those don't exist. The only thing you can be sure of the most is first hand experiences. And notice how much that cuts off. The many stories you hear of global issues. Even the little stories you hear from friends. The different hobbies and experts. The different stuff you see online. Not that I'm telling you everything you believe is wrong, but it does leave room for some alternate possiblites. From being that person who used to be the kid who kept reading science books and sites with the "Question everything?", even science doesn't match how much they question everything here. So everything feels new to me. And that's what I feel unsettled about. Here's some stuff that I questioned. Everyday morality. Remember that history lesson about gladiators being forced to fight? And of course, modern people's horror about it? Imagine what it might be like in the future. Is there something now that people would be disgusted about or look as "too naively nice"? Views on genders. Views on politics. Views on life. Blogs, comics, comments and videos about other people's lives. What my hobbies standards are for what makes a talented person in its particular field? Views on education. Views on metaphysics or the nature of reality. Views on humor. Views on what is naivety. Views on what is wisdom. Views on good food. Views on good music. Views on friends and family. Views on everyday objects. Views on everyday science. Views of Actualized.org. Views on health. You know they used to think smoking didn't cause cancer? Fun. Views on fun. Views on traveling. Views on places. Views on art. Views on religion. Views on who I am. Views on history. Views on the past of my life. Views on the future of my life. Views on the past of humanity. Views on the future of humanity. Views on personal development. Even more. So pretty much everything. If I hadn't had existenstial depression that started and ended when I was 12 and another one when I was 15 as well as someone who'd made the effort to see other people's side of view more often than normal, it'd be less of a soft sadness than it is sheer panic. Not that I haven't been in terror over all this before — but that's a story for another day. Besides, I was mostly relaxed for the whole day.

Remember when I mentioned about possibly falling back into the dark night if I'm not careful? Well, yeah. Everything seemed new. But I wanted to go back to the familiar, but there was nothing familiar. I wanted that bliss back after all. And it was gone. I was blissful and sad at the same time. But the bliss didn't seem enough. Then it disappeared somehow. And the day went by rather normally. And from all these previous months of meditation — these seemed to be the most normal day I ever met. I've gotten used to having out of the ordinary situations ever since the beggining of enlightenment experiences and I just felt. . . neutral. Yet strangely even without the luxury of pleasure and joy, it was more satisfying than those two. Even the pain above seemed to be more normal somehow — more easy to accept and cope with. Sometimes the feeling just seemed more like a neutral texture than something "bad". Ingram explained the equanimity stage as something like a quiet awe after the storm or a return to simpler times in childhood. Yes, this describes it perfectly. It's a funny feeling. Somewhere in my self inquiry and enlightenment practice, I've realized why they made so much emphasis on how the senses were connected. Because the divide of senses is another illusion of language. And that's how this experience is like. The senses blend together into one whole experience. Think of how a baby might see the world — would they categorize things cleanly like "teddy bear" or "mommy". They wouldn't hear sounds as "A piano" or wouldn't hear smells as an "apple." I remember the neurologist Dr. Oliver Sacks wrote a piece on a man who was blind for his entire life and had a surgery on which he could see again. When he saw for the first time, he didn't start pointing out random objects. When objects turn and move, they weren't the same objects to him anymore. He didn't see colors as "red" or "blue", he simply saw them as the different shades that can't be described with words. He would in awe sit near the window seeing cars pass by and he wouldn't know what they were. I remember a story of a person who was deaf too. And the thing about the deaf is that they need to learn sigh language early or they will pass through a critical stage that allows them to learn a language. And another boy told by Oliver Sacks find it amazing how the different trees he saw could all be summarized into just the word tree. And it seemed to me as if I could turn on and off "knowing" and "not knowing" what I see. And hear. And touch. And taste. And smell. Not that I didn't know the concepts. Like how you can't just forget the ending of a movie you just watched — I can't forget the concepts — but when I sense things without dividing, I can still understand what it was like before the movie. I've read somewhere that this is what the fourth visappana Jhana is like — maybe that was what happened in my last post. ------- Ingram said that people in this stage can sometimes make very odd yet profound realizations, and this was mine. I don't really see myself as having a personality anymore. I like learning new and difficult things but I don't see myself as an intellectual person. I like hanging out alone but I don't see myself as a solitary person. I've continued learning poetry yesterday because I see things as ever changing now. I don't see myself as the same person in the past who think poetry is just "overcomplicatiing emotions you can summarize in categorizations and number graphs to rate how well you're doing".( Yeah, I tended to be overdetached from my emotions. ) It's another different but valuable perspective. I wanted some affirmation that I knew many things others didn't. It wasn't overtly obvious but still there. Somewhere in there I thought if I could just know more, I could solve my fear of the unknown. Of my own fear that my skills weren't enough. But really — what is enough? We define things in ways that are useful to us. A chair could be used to sit. A chair could be used to stand on to reach high places. But do the ways we use them really provide their essence? How does this mean to ourselves? And what we define as enough or too much? I wanted to be admired. I unconsciously thought enlightenment would allow that. Not that I am enlightened though. I imagined people coming to talk to me. Quick successes. Quick admiration. Quick praise. But in reality as I progressed, not many people emphasized it much. I was just an ordinary person — no skills of genius and no visible major achievements. More of an everyday ingenuity with ideas, curiosity and a simple warmth. No more shitting about being remembered in history. I'd already passed down my influence. Where? When I share information, time and resources, other people hear and it transfers to more and more people. Which transfers to more and more people in return. Did you think the big ass names are the ones that change history? Take Hitler. He was the one who led. But who gave him advice? Who carried out his orders? Who spread his ideas? Who gave him clothes? Take Elon Musk? Who managed things without him? Who taught him the original ideas he had? And so on. And so on. History tends to give credit to all the leaders. The pioneers. The originals. The revolutionaries. But who allowed those leaders to become leaders in the first place? We remember the lives of leaders that we forget how we are the leaders in our own lives. That history isn't just made by the leaders, but the everyday people. It seemed as if when I see the world without cultural assumptions, the influence is divided equally when estimated between people. Whether that influence is bringing humanity down or bringing it up. Whether it comes from effort or lack of effort. My old self would think it was hippie bullshit. But we're all connected. We are already being a part of the things going around us — just by being alive. And I look around in my familiar home. The same old green couch. The same old collection of my dad's elephant figurines. The same old books I'm reading laying over the table. When the cultural assumptions are lost, it seemed to me everyone had primarily equal value. They were equally oridinary. Equally extraordinary. I either thought of myself as some boring, wimpy and stupid bastard who wouldn't amount to anything or tell myself some story about how awesome life is, how I'm special especially in how much I know and how I'm going to make it big someday. No. Haha. I don't know anything just like how every human being is bad with something. I know some things just like how every human being is good with something. And for some reason I'm fine with that. I'm just someone with an extraordinarily ordinary life. And it truly is the quiet awe after the storm.

Take care and try to separate your ideas with what evidence you actually observe. Take an example where a good friend walks by and when you say hi to them : You could have a myriad of different interpretations for the same observation. You could be worried that she wasn't feeling well to say hi. You could be angry at how she purposely ignored you. You could be down because she must have stopped caring about you. You could simply be surprised and wonder why. The thing is once you see these separations, ask : "What's most likely? Not what's possible." Because after all, for many things in life, many things are possible. But possible doesn't mean probable or likely, does it? I suggest you google cognitive behavioral therapy. It's a therapy based on removing unhelpful beliefs well. You could get a therapist or just try the exercises you can find online.

I hear you. Life can be terrible. I heard a suggestion from Carol Dweck — a psychologist on the mindset of success that when introducing famous people, they shouldn't just say their accomplishments but their failures too. Those people with seemingly perfect lives — people who are fit, who have deep relationships with others, who are happy, who are living out what they want to be rather than what society says and so on. They didn't get there without any problems. They had to start somewhere small. It took time, effort and resources. It took their emotional mastery. It took their problem solving skills. It took their discipline. It took other's support and more. Some have even started with a situation like yours. At least I know I was. Take care. I suggest you look into this thread.

I'm pretty sure I've passed Stage Orange to Stage Green more, as I notice my much more "humanistic" thoughts. Why can't people just accept each other? Why do people have to judge others? Why are people so selfish? And so on. While I slowly made more of an effort to be more kinder, patient and most of all accepting. My old me would just think it's all idealistic hippie bullshit but hey! Life just does stuff. I have all these idealist compassionate thoughts and feelings running up and not much of an idea on how to put it to use well. People can't all be happy and just accept each other — a hierarchy is necesarry. Some viewpoints are better than others and decisions have to be made about that. I feel a need to make that clear to others. Not with a closemindedness— but with a compassion, a willingness to hear their side and mix the truth of what they're saying — even if most of what they say is wrong. Yellow seems to allow for more of the understanding needed to know where to maneuver all these energies to something. I'm hanging around forums like this giving advice more. I'm working on my studies in formal education and informal learning on my own with the intention to use it someday in a life purpose. I've worked with noticing the paradox that Green judges others for judging others but I get the sense that I could do more. A lot more if I could just go deeper to Yellow. Any resources? Video, book, blog etc. recommendations? Any ideas? Any advice? Do I have any misconceptions? Any options on topics or experts that I can explore?

Here you go. https://www.actualized.org/articles/the-grand-model-of-psychological-evolution https://personalityhacker.com/podcast-episode-0155-stratified-levels-of-the-graves-model-spiral-dynamics/

Haha. I'll join in. I cried over how much there was so much to learn more than a couple of times in my life. Something about an incredible wonder over what the world's knowledge can share. I cried over a simple animation and music video of a father caring for his newborn baby and with love, wishing that he would make a better country for his daughter. Awww. And looking at other people with the same hope. I cried over Carl Sagan's video called The Pale Blue Dot, where he shows a picture of the Earth as a small dot in the middle of the galaxy caught by an actual space probe. And in this video, he recounts how every human being lived in this tiny dot. That there is no sign for help outside our tiny home, and is a message for us to take care of our only home. Thinking of how I beat a depression that lasted for years. Sometimes I just lie down in tears about how grateful I am to be beyond it, and to be alive. No reason. Just happy. Haha.

Before trying that option, maybe try a few simple options : Change your self inquiry time to a time in your schedule where you're more alert. Try doing something short but active before it to make you more alert. Like doing jumping jacks or taking a run. Splash yourself with some water. Sit straight with your shoulders relaxed. Try opening your eyes if you're not already.

I was panicking. Absolutely panicking. I was writing furiously on the identities I attached myself to. A failure. The terrified one. Someone who's angry at themselves. Some irrational and emotional baby. Some lazyass who isn't doing their work. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Whenever I removed one image of myself, even more came to emerge. I kept in mind Peter Ralston's exercise. Imagine there was a being with a blank slate who will become you if you explain who you are well. You can't say something vague "A lawyer" or "The funny one". Because other people are like that and they're not you. You can't say something your life principles or philosophies because it wouldn't understand how often you follow these and how well. And so on. Just yesterday I was feeling bliss. No longer the uncomfortable feelings of joy in Stage 8 that can become "too much". More of the pleasant feelings of Stage 9. But the thing is — the amazing power of how blissful this state distracts the practitioner from their object of focus. To work on calming this state — I had to focus on everything. Every sound. Every thought. Every feeling. Every sight to focus. Taste. Smell. Touch. The Mind Illuminated compared it to a narrow wild river. Its restriction makes it more intense, wild and overflowing. But once it settles into a much wider pond, it becomes calmer. But it made me feel overwhelmed — I remember a character who had the power to mind read, but they could never turn it off. So he always grew into a panic just by the sheer number of thoughts he can hear in a crowd. It was like this — but for more than just thoughts. I went to find the quietest place I could find, and continued there. I was so pissed. I got attached to enlightenment. I wanted it now. NOW. NOW. NOW. I had fallen so deeply in love with all that pleasure — and next day, I lost it all replaced with all this pain. The Stage of the Desire for Deliverance as called by Daniel Ingram. Next was Reobservation where I saw life with greater clarity. A painful clarity. Ingram explains that sometimes people here experience a frustration for "worldly" responsibilities such as life, job, relationships, moral codes and sex. I was suddenly frustrated with my own powerlessness to do much for this world. I didn't know enough. I didn't accomplish enough. I didn't have much of an ability to influence. I was just some normal guy. How the hell could I do anything? And more than that ; I was mediocre in my eyes. Just some ordinary teenage student — nah. Nah. Nah. Sure, I've been meditating and doing personal development since I was a kid and managed to surpass being depressed for years —but fuck — I want more than that. The thing I found most important during my depression back then was truth. Know the truth objectively and you'll somehow get out of this. If I had more understanding and information — I could solve everything. Wisdom is my highest value. And how was I reacting to all this? By freaking out. I was so angry at myself for not realizing the truth earlier. I thought I was just some pathetic bastard. But I remember what Ingram said — just keep meditating. So I gathered myself and meditated on my breath. Trying to muster the focus from my frustrations to my self. My embarrassment. My fear. My anger. All lost in my breath. And as time passed, it was gone. And I felt a calmness. A strange awareness of everything surrounding me. What seemed quiet to others before seemed unbearably loud to me. Now the noise of the crowd seemed as peaceful as hearing a soft rainfall. I could listen to every voice in the crowd as I talked with a friend. I felt the air around me. My own thoughts just trying to understand this. And I did all at once. My negative emotions seem unjustified and strange. Why would that bother me so much? I learned from Osho that most of ourselves is from comparisons. What if everyone else on Earth disappeared? There would be no one smart because there would be no one to be smarter too. No one good looking because there would be no one to be more good looking to. Who would you be? And for the first time — I seemed to experience that clearly. Did I just pass 3 stages in a day? Reading on, the extreme manifestations in this stage are rare but worth warning about. But some people just pass the Dark Night in a few minutes, hours or days. It was also introduced that Equanimity is when people start to feel that their spiritual practice is no big deal. I'll keep doing it — but it seems as ordinary yet important as taking a bath. Ingram mentions that if practitioners don't become well aware of new qualities such as peacefulness and ease, then they'll fall back to the stage before. Eh, I'm not phased much. Besides, I have a test tomorrow. See you.

@MiracleMan @TJ Reeves @Joseph Maynor @Natasha I really appreciate the additional input. . Nice to know I have a community I can count on. In the first two hours this post was made, I was barely seeing replies and thanks to how crappy I felt, I thought no one cared. But turns out people do answer. It seems a lot more manageable now, not just because of the advice but I'm getting a message about something I know about well. I thought I had to know some specialized recipe for this specific situation, but it's not like that. Treat it like anyone else with depression or anxiety problems — while being aware of the specifics of this stage in the pursuit of enlightenment. The second I need research with (I guess I'll start with the video Natasha posted later on) and the first one is pretty good, though there's still room for improvement. I know what depression is like. I've been through even worse situations than what happened when I started this thread — and for much longer periods as well. I've learned a variety of tools from the few years I used to have depression and anxiety and I cured my mental health issues for a reason. That would explain why it lasted for a few hours and was gone the next day. A part of me is still . . . strangely used to these kinds of things. To get out of that state, I had to radically change several misconceptions about myself, others and life and well, this is a similar situation. Particularly similar to that other existential depressions I had at two different ages that also had to do with the nature of existence. It's a much bigger thing to take — sure, but loads better compared to someone who was used to a much more comfortable life before this. It's definitely not a perfect all good and quick solution, but better than before.

Sigh. Not a good day today. Anyone here I can PM? Or even just talk on this thread? Sorry, but I'm getting more depressed as the minutes pass. Being down is turning into sadness. Sadness is turning to depression. And from where it's heading, it seems like it's going to turn to despair. I'm even growing some thoughts of suicide but don't worry, I'm not taking that seriously. And I won't in the future. Probably. I would go talk to my usual listeners. But no one I know would really get the context of this situation. I explained it in my journal that I've recently made.

Yesterday night, the nimitta began rapidly and I mean RAPIDLY expanding. It's as if a small orb the size of my pinky grew to be as big as a building in my mind. I was in the middle of the night time leisurely reading and upon this, took this chance to enter a luminous Jhana. I closed my eyes and sat upright. And I no longer had to prepare for it to grow larger, it was already growing larger by itself. I began moving it back and forth in my head as fast as a sweat inducing high speed basketball game. And rather than moving only subtly, or growing smaller, it followered through. I kept hearing my family members talk a bit beyond my eyes. And I felt as if I was seeing through my eyelids — having images in my mind of what I would see happening if I open my eyes. My mom on the couch hunching down talking to my mildly amused grandma. But I went deeper. The Mind Illuminated described it as like sinking into a pool of bliss. And it does. It feels "moist" somehow. Something soft as a cushion wouldn't describe it. A cushion would seem too "solid" to fully describe it. Flowing first and then fully submerging into it. It lasted for 15-20 minutes when I saw the time. But it felt like an eternity. After it, I started to feel subtly disgusted. Disgusted with my meditation. Disgusted with my family. Disgusted with my room. Disgusted by weakness. Disgusted with life. I searched for Daniel Ingram's description of this stage in his book — it was called The Disgust Stage. And it was right. I did feel like my mind was expanding and contracting at the same time. Think of it like trying to close a bag full of so much stuff inside. Except the bag and the things inside feel as large as the radius of a nuclear bomb and the force to close in it as similar. And that was. . . frustrating. The book described it as the inability to focus on the center of things. Deeper awareness is often described with big talk of calmness but deeper awareness here was just disgusting. I felt like my senses and mind were being intruded by all this information and it was frustrating. Amongst that, I was still being bathed by bliss. I could feel the refreshing coldness of it. How wet it feels in my head. What a bizarre combination. Bliss and disgust at the same time. I threw up that night. Yellow and pale brown looking moosh in the toilet and next to it. More than one time, you bet. I wonder if I ate too much to make up for my intense hunger earlier or it was the disgust acting in me. Maybe it's both. After groaning at how terrible I felt while having a family member trying to comfort me by rubbing my back, I slept. When I woke up, it was gone. I slept late from the stress and usually I'd be falling asleep in lectures at a time like that, but I felt alert the whole day. Things I expect to be embarrassed of distressed about didn't expect that way. I find I fell deeper in love with meditation and I've became wonderfully interested by how fascinating everything was. I often think a lot of absolutely terrifying shit to others is fascinating. A daredevil — not in extreme sports but in ideas. In changing beliefs, in changing viewpoints and especially in changing paradigms. What a ride, I bet. Or maybe all this joy juicing my system is making me overoptimistic. Texts seem to warn about that. I need more equanimity. Equanimity is a non reactivity of what's bad or good. It may seem like what's left is a feeling of emptiness, but far from it. Alan Watts talked about an old teaching in Buddhism — it's like the sky. There can be clouds covering it. Rain. Whirlwind. Storms about. But what's beneath is always the calmness of a blue sky. Once everything is cleared up, what's left is joy. It doesn't mean wouldn't no goals in mind, especially with my interest in all this. But if I wasn't able to, there won't be such a large variation in my mood. If there's any change at all. It's just . . . calmness. I've heard enlightenment doesn't really make you 100% happy. It only changes your relationship with emotions. They refer to the two types of emotions. The direct emotion and how you feel about that emotion which the second one is something you can control. Its like how people can listen to the same music and one can think it's horrible and the other can think it's amazing. Emotions — even what we call the negative emotions, don't actually have to be "negative". Same goes with positive. In Headspace, the author recounts talking to his guru, that even the positive view has to be removed. Because to have a positive view means that you have a negative contrast to compare it with. How could we know light without darkness? Life without death? If my judgement is right from what the book says, the Passing and Arising Stage where I experienced intense joy then intense calmness with pummeling insights of how time did not exist and how existence wasn't different non existence was about a week or two ago. The Fear Stage came quickly after that when I suffered intense terror at some crazy ass visions during a meditation. Misery Stage was two DAYS earlier and Disgust Stage was yesterday at the time I'm writing this. Am I mistaken, or is everything coming a lot more faster than I expected it? Though, now that I think about it, when I think back, it looks like I experienced stages like these before. I just never actually had information at hand like this to know what it's called. I pick up my iPad and flick through pages of my ebook to read. I'm in stage 9, I realize. Is this really happening? Haha, well whatever it is. This is going to be interesting.

Good. I agree with you. I didn't say experience was bad. Or that it was impossible to learn with just experience. Theory without experience is just some person procrastinating on life and playing with their minds, thinking they're doing something substantial when it's just blocking all their progress. Things that come from experience from other people can be theories to you. Or if you mean these theories come from experience, that can be true. Theories and experience are connected after all. Theories come from experience. And with experience allows more theories on what else people can do.

I read Daniel Ingram's book and it looks like I was in a Dark Night episode. According to it, that was the Misery stage. I've already experienced the first stage — fear. And man, I saw the craziest visions and suffered complete terror at it. Long story. Next is disgust, desire for deliverance, and reobservation. Which is a lot more potentially terrifying if you read those descriptions. I mean I'm not scared now, but later on I might. And these words aren't enough to describe the potential of how insanely crappy these states could be. Shit. Haha, guys, if you have any advice or resources, keep it coming.

I'm in a calmer mood oddly. Well, calm's not that the best way to put it. Not that I don't feel pain. But I don't see it as "bad" or "good". It seems almost as neutral a feeling as touching a blank wall. Other weird stuff happened today too. I felt an odd feeling in my stomach and was confused. But I just ignored it. Later on I got dizzy, and I realized this was hunger. And what made me not realize it was how the feeling of it as something negative wasn't there. And if my past self would have experienced it, the hunger would be pretty intense and stressful. But I just went my day focusing intently on what I had to do. My sense of time has been growing faster and faster. A day first seemed like two days. Then it grew into a week. A month. Years. Later even longer than I lived. Today, it felt like time did not even move at all. When I think of memories from my childhood, it feels like it all happened a second ago. I heard of something called The Dark Night — basically how the mind can sink into extreme negative emotions after a seeing. I bought a book recently that had this and I read that it could last for years or it could be short. As well as the advice to start doing more basic insight practice. I awoke with the possibility that I could be depressed for a long long long time. And how did I react? Eh. Okay. I'll deal with that. Not like I need enlightenment that soon. And soon my sadness disappeared. Replaced by a relaxed satisfaction. And I went upon my day.

@Voyager @eputkonen @Natasha Hey, thanks guys. Update : I'm in a calmer mood oddly. Well, calm's not that the best way to put it. Not that I don't feel pain. But I don't see it as "bad" or "good". It seems almost as neutral a feeling as touching a blank wall. Other weird stuff happened today too. I felt an odd feeling in my stomach and was confused. But I just ignored it. Later on I got dizzy, and I realized this was hunger. And what made me not realize it was how the feeling of it as something negative wasn't there. And if my past self would have experienced it, the hunger would be pretty intense and stressful. But I just went my day focusing intently on what I had to do. My sense of time has been growing faster and faster. A day first seemed like two days. Then it grew into a week. A month. Years. Later even longer than I lived. Today, it felt like time did not even move at all. When I think of memories from my childhood, it feels like it all happened a second ago. I heard of something called The Dark Night — basically how the mind can sink into extreme negative emotions after a seeing. I bought a book recently that had this and I read that it could last for years or it could be short. As well as the advice to start doing more basic insight practice. I awoke with the possibility that I could be depressed for a long long long time. And how did I react? Eh. Okay. I'll deal with that. Not like I need enlightenment that soon. And soon my sadness disappeared. Replaced by a relaxed satisfaction. And I went upon my day. But I don't know if it will last. I don't know.

It's an unsettling bliss. Not for the entire day really, but for very long. You ever watch those movies where for example, a family member of a character dies and they'd come into a room expecting they'd still be there, they're gone? And because of this, they feel distressed. Upset. Longing for the past. But they know they can never go back. It's like that. But for my sense of self. I've spent my entire life with myself. I've criticized my identity. I've prided on my identity. I've shouted angry words at myself. I've gently told myself to hang in there. I was with myself in my highest and at my lowest. I've read books together with myself. I was with myself when I was with my friends and family. But it's gone. I always had been daydreaming a whole world since I was a kid. Where I'm the hero. Where I can be admired. Cherished. Become a success. Whether it's in the world of one of those samurai anime tv shows I used to watch or a world of my own creation. It's been an inner legend as if different variations of the same tale being spread throughout history. The history of my life. The idea of "The success story." Those times where I cheered on movies about a character who's caught by the enemy and put in great pain but manages to push through. Those stories of people stuck in poverty and managing to contribute millions to humanity in a business. Those stories of people who were absolute dicks but managed to become a humble Saint. And so on. Its like my sense of self was organized and shaped into an ice cube. But it began to melt, and I try to cusp the water into my hands but I can't anymore. Because my real self is formless. And I'm trying to hold on whatever is left of the ice. I don't think most people would understand if I told them. So all I have is a site like this. I see flickers of pride and gratitude for who "I" am but then I realize this person doesn't exist. And it's not the same. There's bliss now. And yet there's also an unsettling emptiness. A sadness. In who? I don't know anymore. I don't know.

This site showcases eight. http://theancientwisdomproject.com/ Enjoy.