SOUL

You were sharing a warning about false myths of enlightenment and I was wondering what those were since you felt it important enough to mention it. It appears you like to share lots of definitive sounding statements using absolute terms and when questioned about what you've shared you then "share" we need to figure it our for our self. Maybe you should start with figure it our for yourself and stay with that because all the definitive statements using absolute terms may be found to be false myths, no?

I thought you said you were going to deal with it? I guess you may want to examine yourself more closely.

Bahahahahahaaaaa!

Well, thanks for sharing yours, too.

If it's not serious then I have to wonder why warn others about false myths? That's who I was asking initially about it even though you felt it was serious enough to ask me why so serious. If you have a problem with me asking of others who warn about false myths and speak authoritatively about it then you might as well deal with that, too.

What if it's not liberation from the self and you are pointing them in the wrong direction? What if it is cultivation of thought so your words saying isn't not could be seen as false myth? If you claim you aren't a teacher why are you telling people what it is and what it is not if it is something that cannot be taught? Why all the pointing if it could be misdirecting to others?

@Shanmugam It doesn't surprise me that you suddenly appear to defend the teaching by people when it's usefulness is questioned by others.

What if someone disagrees with it? What if those observations are not a guide but leading them away and not something they realize because they see it differently? What if they see that the journey doesn't end? Are you comfortable that you may be misleading others by your teaching? Why are you saying all these things in authoritative words and tones if there is no authority to establish it? If all paths lead to enlightenment then there is no "false myth" and what you find "faster" may actually be "slower" to another and you could be slowing them by teaching what you do.

If people "can't learn" from another teacher why are you making definitive statements with words like only, can't and never? How do you know it is true for everyone because if you "can't learn" from another then you can't possibly teach either, then why make those statements? Someone may find true for themselves that freedom comes from chaos and order is authority so limits freedom. If you suggest people need to be free from what others have said why do you say so much in authoritative sounding words? Why use words like can't, only, must, not and always at all? If any statement seen as true by one be seen as false by another is there even any false myth? If there is then again I ask how is this determined? Find out yourself sounds nice but what if they find that everything you are teaching is false can they call you a false myth teacher then?

Is there something wrong with "measure"? You measure that "any designated path by past knowledge and it's descriptions of what 'enlightenment' is a myth". Does that mean Buddha's words are false enlightenment myth since it's past knowledge and description but you saying this now isn't? You measure to "never accept any authority, especially the self/thought", that "where there is authority freedom is not" and that "order only comes from freedom". You speak as if you are the authority on these measures but should I not accept them since they are coming from your authority of past knowledge and descriptions so are 'false myths'? I'm genuinely concerned that people will fall into these false myths of enlightenment you seem to think are important enough to mention. How can we know what these false myths are? What are they? Clarify so everyone will not be deluded by these false myths of enlightenment!

What are these "false myths of 'enlightenment"? On who's authority that determines what's "false"? What is this "order" and on who's authority is it determined?

@cetus56 Yup, it sure is playing with something.

@Shanmugam Well, whatever it is that I said that caused you to reply in such a lengthy and pointed way was not my intention but it still remains that you make many assumptions about me that are mistaken.

It amazes me the mental yoga people go through to make a point that doesn't exist.

@Shanmugam My apologies for triggering such a reaction in you but I assure you the assumptions you make about me are mistaken.

This thread started with an appearance of clarity in awareness, that you were seeing through the house of cards being constructed but now it seems like you are letting yourself get confused by the cards. You are examining every edge and every marking on the cards searching for clues to the reason and meaning of the house. I made aware the esoteric sounding word play and clever circling narratives used in an attempt to distract and that is what happened. You are admittedly just more confused by it all and unfortunately no amount of more word play and circling narratives will untangle the mind from the distraction unless.....you just let it go and let it be.

@Scholar Now that you see the emperor has no clothes don't let the spin masters bamboozle you into believing their ass isn't exposed. There will be esoteric sounding word play and clever circling narratives used in an attempt to distract you. Attaining a genuine clarity in awareness allows one to recognize that attributing as many characteristics to what is said to be inconceivable and unimaginable as some do is laughable. As they tell the story of their concepts about it they say it's not conceptual and if questioned it's turned on you who isn't open to it or trapped in 'maya'. They declare the authority of directly knowing "absolute" as the only reality and truth dismissing all else as illusion and false. Cognitively priming you as they were primed as well in saying if you "search" for the truth it will be as they say it is so are suggesting if it's anything other than that it's not truth and you don't know the truth. The demonizing of thoughts, ideas, beliefs and mind is herding the 'seekers' by corralling them into a dogmatic belief paradigms and chasing off anything that strays from it as unawakened and deluded sheep. Everyone else repeats the regurgitated rhetoric and all the gurus agree so it must be true! So seek clarity, keep awakened and be at peace! Haha!

Well, it seems most agree you speak all the criteria of 'enlightenment', I guess congratulations is in order....haha

I don't know....haha

I didn't come to that conclusion, it was a simple illustration of how 'no self' is misrepresented and this can lead others to suffer in confusion. We can be aware of our 'no self' experience but this doesn't make the self disappear, it just ceases to be our primary focus. 'Enlightenment' is expanding our awareness to more than the self centered experience the body innately produces, to be aware of and abiding in the 'no self' experience in our consciousness. It's not erasing the self from existence since the body subconsciously generates the sense of self, it's expanding and focusing awareness away from the sense of self to include the 'no self' experience and center our being in it. Not communicating this distinction may confuse and frustrate people who are being misled to believe that the self really disappears but they experience the body still spontaneously generating the sense of self. As we evolve in life while abiding in the 'no self' state of being the body's subconscious associations in emotion and thought will become less self centered and the 'reactionary' impulses will mitigate in relation to perception. Although, memories will still accrue, functionality for survival will still exist, if we are hungry the stomach will ache and if we bump our head it will still hurt, it's just our being is abiding in equanimity not in reaction to it. Does this make any sense?

"truth: the quality or state of being true." "true: in accordance with fact or reality. accurate or exact. loyal or faithful. honest." Truth is relative according to the standard it is applied on. A personal truth is according to a personal standard, scientific truth is according to what is revealed by the scientific method, reality truth is according to reality which is often associated with life and is comprised of objective and subjective experience. Truth is a comparison to a standard so it is relative to the standard set and measured by, truth isn't compared to itself other than it is being true and what is true is a measure of a standard as well. Science - accurate fact Personal - loyal, faithful, honest Reality - objective and subjective experience So, the question is what's the standard one will measure to find if it's truth? Reality? Ok, that awesome but there is subjective experience associated with reality that I cannot determine for you and you cannot determine for me. "Spinach tastes delicious"...how is the "truth" of this statement determined? It is subjective, there is no objective standard that the "truth" can be compared to so "reality" has subjective truth qualities. A universal "absolute truth" that people may suggest exists is a belief paradigm story that is created according to their experience. You may say it's "no story reality", some may say it's "Jesus saves", others may say it's "science rules".... who is to determine which is "absolute truth"? I'm hungry for food.... can you determine if it's "truth"?....hehe

Do you?

You are welcome to believe anything you want but don't expect others to believe it. The clarity of reality reveals it all.

@Joseph Maynor Yes, it is my story although I don't suggest my story is a universal absolute truth that is everyone's story, I let people create or destroy their own story as they see fit and let the reality of living their life be their story.

@Shanmugam My spiritual path started to heal childhood trauma, it wasn't about 'enlightenment' and it's never been about it. As the healing happened in my life there was awakenings that came along with it that others would association with 'enlightenment' but it still wasn't a focus of mine. I definitely was surrounded by many kinds of 'teaching' from western to eastern varieties, atheist, scientific, self help, empowerment, the list goes on. Although, I felt imposed upon by so many of them, there was so much pressure to adopt values and perspectives that had nothing to do with my healing but instead framed as being 'right', 'good' and 'truth' which only supported their own belief systems. If it didn't resonate with me it was portrayed as me being wrong, bad or false and until I submitted to them and their beliefs I wouldn't and couldn't get healing. I intuitively knew I could get it without their belief systems and ultimately without their input at all so I went an autodidact way and it came in a genuine way but with so much more. A sense of peace, joy and fulfillment that transcended anything I observe in others around me not that I cared to compare it to justify me. I spent many years contented in this and didn't really seek out discussions about spirituality like I have on here but I would use my real life as an opportunity to let people I would cross paths with to let them know healing and peace was possible. I became very adept as feeling out what people really were searching for and what methods of understanding appealed to them and catered my words to fit their language, kind of like what you say you do. Yet I find myself constantly walking a razor's edge of challenging people's comfort zones or comforting that hurting inner child, or not being an either-or as sometimes people need to be challenged so the healing can happen. I still don't claim to know or seek 'truth' or 'enlightenment' but do acknowledge the awakening of our inner life as a way to healing and bringing, joy, fulfillment and peace.