SOUL

I see clearly that you identify with the image you construct so completely you think everyone is subject to it and yet you fail to see how you are psychologically bound by it. There is nothing for me to go into, it's your imagination.... you have quite an imagination. I appreciate the invitation to go into it but there's no need for any of those images cluttering awareness. If the point of all this imagery is to cease self caused suffering then I already experience it without using your imaginings.

We? 'We' can also support one another to reinforce just like you and your 'movement' of people here are agreeing with each other's ideas. You mean like this system of abstraction, fragmentation and movement you have constructed and seek psychological security in that image to escape reality? Yes, it seems so. So then according to the abstraction you construct you 'image-ine' that the only way you can experience no suffering is this image of 'no image' you've seek psychological security in but this image actually nourishes the fragmentation which means you are still suffering and aren't "psychologically indestructible". *whew* The same? Another 'image' construct? Does that mean you imagine truth and false are the same, too? This isn't me imagining it to be, it's your 'image' I reference and just to be clear I'm not 'attacking' you, I'm just acknowledging what you say about it.

Baha...brilliant response! What I observe in community participation is often a pattern between people that is an extension of what happens within our self. We will have an experience in awakening so the self in an effort to remember and return to it will codify it as a specific set of concepts, to make it an identity, this is what it 'only' is and the 'only' way to get back to it, like a map, it's the 'true way'. That's why there is so much comparing of notes, so to speak, in the community participation, there is a desire for confirmation from others to secure identity as a group and personally. This is done through seeking a universality in ideology because if we all have the same conceptual view of it that confirms we are 'right', that this is the 'truth'. Then new comers to the community want to feel that they are 'right' and know the 'truth' to confirm identity so they adopt the community ideology which adds to the collective identity which also confirms personal identity. When in reality all of our experiences are very unique perspectives and the more specifics one would investigate in them the more divergence one would find in the details. This highlights the difference between truth being the state of true, as a fact which is not the same as truth being the state of true, in being consistent to. People are confusing that their experience of 'truth' means they have the accurate facts when instead our spiritual path, the experience of 'truth', or being true, is staying steadfast and consistent to being awareness, of abiding in presence. The facts about our experience may be different for each of us but ultimately abiding in presence is the 'universality'. Threads like this, the 'argument', are typically about trying to establish experiential 'facts' to confirm group and personal identity. I prefer to find unity in presence of being, of abiding in being aware now.

@Tistepiste Keep reading this over and over until it becomes unforgettable, there isn't much more that needs to be said. It's this simple. Well said @eputkonen

Hm

Anyone who is attempting to portray any of the compassionate policies mentioned here that a republic would employ to promote the general welfare, which is a constitutional charge on the government by the way, is instead a wholesale endorsement of a communist or socialist government is ignorant. Anyone who would equate equality according to the law with equality of outcome and decide because equality of outcome cannot be achieved that equality of the law isn't worth fighting for is ignorant.

He's very charismatic and his message is philosophically sound but it's pretty much 'textbook' after 1000s years of it being told. As I let his voice drift by awareness present in the state of well being, causeless well being, it was as if I was waiting for him to say it. In the last few seconds of the clip he did.... an "exuding well being", he said.... hehe, oh the oozing well being. I recognized decades ago that happiness, fulfillment, passion and peace are emergent qualities we are aware of in our conscious experience of 'well being'. He says many things to many people so in this he is speaking about 'causeless happiness' but it very well could be speaking to the presence of 'causeless well being' in our consciousness. Of course, in this clip you shared he doesn't get to expound on the very challenging nature of having the presence of causeless well being in us when our inner life is spontaneously not that on it's own. Instead it's ...um... "exuding" distress in all the qualities of suffering our miserable selves can muster up. If there ever was a trap it's here in thinking we have to 'make it' or 'do it'. He touches on that idea a little bit and I'm sure he explains elsewhere more about it but that is the core of the message really so I will speak it. Specifically I am speaking of our causelessly being causeless well being while impervious to the conditioned self's efforts to cause distress. This is more complicated than I prefer to explain yet it may benefit one who reads it so I do it. So, whether it's JP's 12 step of making it mean something or Leo's book lists and 1000s of hours for years or any of the infinite hoops that we would set up for our selves to jump through to 'get' it's all conditional circumstances for the 'do to get' caused well being. Which is why there are millions of people seeking 'do to get' caused well being and not finding an abiding experience of it. It's conditional, temporary caused 'well being' as long as those conditions we set for our self are met by our self so it creates a striving for it which is a form of longing, it's unfulfilled. Unlike the 'do to get' hoop, a 'causeless' well being is a 'just be it' and an unconditional expression of well being so there is potential for an abiding experience of it. Again, it wraps back to the message of a the abiding 'just be it' causeless well being while the conditioned self generates distress distraction is a challenge that no 12 steps or books read or endless hours of spiritual practices can 'do to get' it. No steps, books or hours of practice is actually the 'just be it' causeless well being. The difference between practice doing it and actually being it is the difference between the temporary experience of it as long as conditions are met and the abiding experience of it that is unconditional. The only 'do' we can 'do' to 'be' it is turn our attention to and increase our awareness of the causeless well being so that the self caused distress diminishes in our awareness. Yes, no steps, no books and no time needed to be it in each present moment. Stay attentive to the causeless well being and eventually the self will reflect the causeless well being and ironically be conditioned into an unconditional well being habituation. So a harmony will exist within the whole of our consciousness. Whew, that was alot of words, I'll shut up now. Hah

Yea, love it.... that's a deep healing exercise, another sublime and practical tip is mindful appreciation of the present moment.

I've said that before? Hah. I don't read much in this thread, I just see the pages of endless mind pumping piling up. It's funny.

This thread is a Pollock painting of mental masturbation preaching a blank canvas although awareness is a field of hemp mingling with a rainbow pallet of wildflowers.

Life bloomed as an expression of the absolute, it is the fruit of the absolute so living an enriched experience of the manifest existence transcends any 'dead self walking' state in the joy and fulfillment one can be present with since it is holistic in harmony of unity. Haha

"Enlightenment" is life.

What are thoughts? Sensations in the mind by way of the brain's activity. So when we stub our toe or if our stomach aches in hunger that sensation doesn't actually happen in the toe or stomach, it happens in the mind. When we see or smell or hear, it doesn't happen in the eyes, nose or ears, it happens in the mind. Imagery, memory, emotions, inner dialog, sense of self, ideology and the product of the senses all happen in the mind. Yes, the rest of the body interacts with our environment, it has stimulus responses, biological processes and chemical reactions that contribute to what eventually results in sensations in the mind that culminates in us being aware of it. So what are thoughts? Sensations in the mind. No thoughts? Hmmmmm....... carrot..... stick....

"Enlightenment" is a carrot in the mind that people put on the end of their spiritual stick. Cease self suffering by using that stick for walking the awakened path and just eat the carrot.

It's really just using any moment to clear the mind. Standing on line somewhere? Clear the mind. In the shower or pooping? Clear the mind. Waiting at a traffic light? Clear the mind. In the elevator? Clear the mind. Walking the dog? Clear the mind. Instead of letting the mind ramble off with monkey chatter anytime it's not focusing on a task I use any moment to 'meditate' by clearing the mind. Eventually the mind spontaneously goes to it anytime it's not focusing. Even repetitive tasks that we often are doing unconsciously can serve as an opportunity to use the conscious mind to meditate. This will expand our ability to integrate meditation into life seamlessly and will be continuous, not intermittent.

It doesn't need to be framed as either good or bad for something to have meaning, just having significance is enough. It's virtually impossible for something to be completely devoid of any meaning unless it is absolutely insignificant to us. Being aware of something as being significant without attaching to it is a subtle distinction observed in awakening. Pain is part of life but suffering can be defined as an ongoing pain including physical, mental and emotional. We don't have to self sustain pain within our mind so that it is self suffering, though. Sustaining joy can be the way of our present being and any pain that comes in life doesn't have to interrupt it, that's similar to what you suggest, joy even if there is pain. The pain may have meaning/significance to us such as our body is in need of some healing or we have lost a loved one. We can feel that pain because pain is part of life but the suffering comes when we attach to that pain, we identify with that pain. The ego may even perpetuate that 'pain' long after the actual pain is past so causes self suffering. The ego/self may feel a pain having it's meaning taken away and not replaced with other meaning, even if it's the significance of accepting meaninglessness. The ego/self will try to instigate inner 'suffering' for us without meaning or until we find a new meaning for it to attach identity. Meaning isn't a good or bad thing in itself but it does have significance to us because that's what it is, it's a natural survival mechanism. Although, not allowing any meaning or significance we are aware of to form attachment can be a very nuanced dance of being aware. We need to eat food to survive but it is the ego/self that gets identity from what kind of food it attaches to as the 'right' food to eat. We have meaning/significance to survive but it is the ego/self that gets identity from what kind of meaning/significance it attaches to as the 'right' meaning. Meaning isn't an absolute, it's a relative so our temporal mind uses it to enrich the experience like it uses nutrition to enrich the body. Yet people try to make meaning an absolute by attaching an ultimate significance of truth to it. This is why some get very attached to their beliefs because belief is just a conceptual meaning/significance they attach a capital 'T' truth to. Does this bring clarity?

Interesting how you create meaningful choice in meaningless meaninglessness. You may suggest that you don't but if you didn't there wouldn't be you finding the meaninglessness meaningless significant and any option to reject or embrace it. If it works to cease suffering in your experience then that is all that matters.

Only two? Are you sure?

@CreamCat I didn't mean to trigger you, my apologies.

You say "you" but you mean "I" because you have no idea what I or anyone else experiences when they shift away from "the old ways". For my own experience, when I shifted away from those old ways I felt relief and freedom from expectations that weren't mine but foisted on me by others and I didn't really want anyway. So this actually motivates me to continue to transform my perspective away from them, this is very meaningful for me, I am excited by it and look presently to it. I will caution you though about just replacing the old ways that feed egocentric appeasing with new ways that are still egocentric appeasing. If it still feeds the ego/self identity in using practices and exercises, even spiritual ones, it sets up the same issues associated with the ego/self that can stir up suffering and distress from dogmatic conditioning. By finding meaning and motivation in just being present we can be fulfilled and at peace without any need for specific conditions in life, we can be so in any conditions. Then as we add all the other things in life it's being added to us fulfilled in just being, not dependent on those other things. If our joy, fulfillment and peace isn't dependent on them, it cannot be disrupted by them You are welcome to do anything you wish, I'm just trying to offer some insight from my years of doing inner work, but we are all different and have different preferences. Peace.

Through the natural process of identity the self/ego anchors it's perceptional orientation around what we typically encounter in every day life. There is nothing inherently 'wrong' or 'bad' about this but our subconscious is trying to set up a 'stable' base in an 'unstable' landscape so this can be problematic. When we awaken this can cause a significant amount of disillusionment because we are seeing the illusory nature of the world and it's appearances. Since the self/ego is losing it's moorings to ground itself in what it previously has known there will be a host of unpleasant sensations in an attempt to motivate us to reattach to them. These tribulations we are put through by the self/ego are just faux stimulus even though it may feel and appear very real, we aren't in real distress but it's a challenge to recognize it while going through it. It's an 'ego backlash' as someone put it here and will typically continue in us until the self/ego gets it's identity stabilized again. I would suggest to place attention on and increase awareness of the present moment and of just being present. The world of circumstance, which includes much of our inner life is a shifting environment and the most unchanging thing we can find in it is just 'being' in the 'present moment', so 'being present' can stabilize our perceptual experience. Just 'being present' for the self/ego is too much of a unfamiliar and uncomfortable minimalist experience for it so may still react negatively but the longer we stay being aware in the present moment the less intense the ego backlash will be. Eventually the self/ego will orient it's identity in being present which has it's own challenges of managing the 'spiritual ego'. Getting to the point that self/ego is comfortable in being present and ceases the negative reaction to it will bring a sense of harmony and peace in our experience of conscious life. Very few actually get there instead preferring to focus on spiritual practices and exercises which can become a distraction from being present and a fixation of self/ego. Not sure if this was any help but take what is useful.

A meditative state has been so seamlessly woven into my mind that I don't have to set aside time in the way most people approach it. I do still set aside time for it but I am always cultivating the clarity in my mind even if it's for a minute or few every moment I am not actively focusing on something. About three decades ago I began this exercise of 'walking meditation' and now I reflexively shift into the meditative mind state spontaneously. I even find myself in it while I am actively focusing on something else, I am meditatively observing my 'self' focusing on a task in every day life. This way the mindfulness is a natural state for my consciousness to continually be in and not something I have to try to be in.

People typically think of spirituality as a supernatural experience but I don't view it that way. I view it as a natural experience that is comprised of the individual but undivided physical, emotional and mental aspects of our being. The 'mystical' impression we get from this subjective experience is in the meaning, inspiration and connection we derive from it. There doesn't need to be anything 'extra' natural about it for it to be a 'spiritual' experience, it's a natural expression of conscious being. Just something to keep in mind as you journey on your way to what I hope will be a joyous, fulfilling and peaceful path of being. But convince you? Nah, aint my place to do such a thing.

All language is 'semantics' and all words can be drivel but especially the words of whiners because they have no beneficial value.

Soft pages that can be used for toilet paper.