SOUL

It's in the US constitution..... allowing a corporation, group or individual to deny health care to someone because of belief, race, gender, nation of origin, creed or even profit violates their rights as a citizen. So to ensure the general welfare it is the government's duty and imperative to establish and protect the citizen's rights and to promote the general welfare of all it's citizens.... that includes but isn't limited to health care, clean water, safe food, safe housing, education, a safe working environment, living wage, fair market practices, preserving a clean environment, a stable currency and others all of which contributes to their general welfare.

Until you unplug your butt of all the conceptual suppositories and let go of your anal gurus you will not find peace of mind, the ego would rather be 'right' than release it's identity inducing machinations so that awareness will be liberated from self suffering.

One can actively participate with the evolving conditioning process so experience the cessation of self suffering in liberation. This is my message and why I suggest the choice/no choice conversation is ultimately a distraction from it. The instances where it spontaneously happens randomly without any active participation in the conditioning process are especially rare, even more rare than when it happens with active participation which appears to be quite rare in itself. To one that doesn't experience the cessation of self suffering it is an abstract religious concept yet to one that does experience liberation it is realized. So which are you? Peace.

Truth is the state of being true......once one transcends the esoteric double speak the reality of what is becomes clear. Only if one trusts in the double speak of abstract religious concepts can one be confused by the obviousness of what is. There is an objectively true biomass of the earth but whether one can know it or not does not erase that there is an accurate fact of it. Not sure what point you thought you made by this. Roger and apparently you like to rely on the materialist interpretation of the manifest when it suits you and then toss it aside in deference to the belief of the imaginary abstract when it suits you. We can be an active participant in the natural evolution of the conditioning that creates our 'attitude' so even if we choose not to decide we still have made a choice. It's not the sense of self or the forming of identity that causes self suffering, it's the attachment to the self identity that is the source of self suffering. After liberation we still remember our self's name but we don't self suffer because others forget it.

You say your statement about the only 'truth' isn't the truth? That means it isn't the truth that the only truth is your own experience...... so why even say it at all? This double speak makes the 'pointer' virtually useless. There is a difference between contradictory and paradoxical..... if you are unaware of the difference maybe at some point you will. Well, one of the meanings of 'true' is something being 'accurate' so there is no real difference between trusting something is 'accurate' rather than 'true'. Both fall within the meaning of belief. If this sense of 'doership' is natural and we can't get rid of it as you suggest then why tell oneself a 'non-doership story' at all? It sets up an environment of conflict within our inner life and how does one find peace through a path of conflict? Which is why I suggest an 'attitude', to use your word, of acceptance of what is instead of resisting what naturally happens. If one does transcend this sense of 'doership' through whatever methods works so also perceives a 'non-doership' which you say won't erase the natural 'doership' anyway then it can be realized in it's completeness, or oneness. It also opens the potential for the purpose and usefulness of this sense of 'doership' and state of 'non-doership' to be revealed to those who are perceptive to it. Agreed, except I like to make the distinction of self suffering, what you call psychological suffering, and how physical suffering continues in life even though one ceases self suffering in liberation. In liberation our toe still hurts when we stub it and we still feel the pangs of hunger but we don't self suffer because of physical suffering. Which brings us back full circle to my initial point in the form of a question I described as a 'trick'... or would it be more accurate to call it an illusion? Yes... it may be. I tell a story of acceptance of what is and teach that we can use this natural sense of 'doership', even if one ultimately views it as an illusion, to create a different conditioning that can lead to the cessation of self suffering in liberation. This offers a coherent path to those who may be vexed by the apparent contradiction of 'doership' and 'non-doership' which may be serving as a stumbling block to their liberation from self suffering. It's not a matter of one story or another being right or wrong, true or false, it's more about what works and I see very little evidence in the lives of seekers that the story of 'non-doership' as it is being widely taught by the 'non-dual' teachers through the millennia is working to lead very many people to liberation.

When I say it people are critical of me but when Adyashanti says it he's an amazing teacher....haha

Possibly. Well, truth just means the state of being true and being true, in the context of spiritual experience, means loyal to one's own beliefs and belief just means what is trusted as true. There is an objective aspect to experience and a subjective aspect to experience with them overlapping in our consciousness and perception of it. Truth in the context of the objective and the subjective with regard to our perception of experience can diverge to a great degree. Yet very many purport it to be a 'truth' and even though you say it isn't meant to be a 'truth' your words reveal you clearly trust it is true. Do you suggest that the feeling of agency is responsible for psychological suffering and that it is unnecessarily 'held in place' by someone that experiences liberation? It appears you do and if you do may I ask what leads you to hold those beliefs? I'm not sure what you mean by 'peace of mind' but in my own experience I view peace of mind as agreement between the conscious and subconscious.... of course there could be agreement on guilt, blame and expectations so that could create self suffering. Again, I'm not sure what you mean by 'attitude' but I suspect you mean a psychological perspective and what causes one to have an 'attitude' is a slowly evolving process from effects of experience.

There is a difference between someone finding humor in their own life's experiences and communicating that to others in jokes. Then there is people demeaning and disparaging others and communicating that with cruel and insensitive jokes to make fun of them. 'It's just jokes' doesn't cover up the difference between those two.

@Maharani The difference is in the story being told. In the 'no self' story it is believed that the physical experience we have that feels like we have some agency is 'false' and that the experience that one would have in the imagination of no agency is 'true'. So resisting the physical experience for the one that happens in the imagination. The story I'm telling is that I make no conclusive judgments about agency or not, my physical experience behaves as if I have some agency so I accept it as it is. There are plenty of limitations and influences to this agency and I use inner work to become aware of them and not be blindly controlled by the self. While others have the perception in imagination that once they transcend the physical the self is transcended so it doesn't exist and along with it the feeling of agency. In my perception once the self is transcended the limitations and influences of self are transcended so the ability of agency increases. I don't say one experience is true and another false or the perception is an illusion or real. I also don't allow the priming influence of others to frame the conceptual perspective I view. Although, this perspective allows me to be actively and intimately involved with the peace of mind I experience.

All this mystical stuff has you bamboozled my friend but the imaginary story telling on this forum and in circles like this will only keep your mind spinning in circles. Just accept things as they are and limit how much you interpret them through the conceptual mind, life is alot more simpler this way and easier to manage.

Life is.....

Don't seek? Ok, done! Um....wait, I mean... not done! Aw geez... I'm just being, that's so much simpler.

...you just prefer the esoteric "life force" that "moves" us story....it's just another expression of the imagination. Do the words from books force their way into our mind? Does food crawl into our mouth and chew itself? Do symphonies get composed by us without our participation? Everything can be framed to fit a story. We can also transcend the separation of the free will/no choice dualism upon awakening to the oneness as it is.....or at least that's how the story goes. Peace

It's obvious to say it's brought about by life, what conditioning isn't.....but 'the body's natural intelligence'? You put much trust into something that has produced very little results. There are untold numbers through the millennia who are miserable with self suffering their whole life and so few that are liberated. The natural instinct is to attach to identity, to sustain self so motivate us to keep the body alive and to transcend that drive is despised and rejected by the ego. This notion that we have no option in it echoes the Christian concept that god predetermines the 'chosen' and not we choose to be drawn to god....curious. Hm These concepts you describe may be your experience but not what I be and I experience liberation from self suffering. You say in your initial post about your words that it can never be 'truth'.....in that I would agree. This isn't to say you don't share some helpful insights, you do but consider there are many paths to the mountain top. Peace.

So how does one bring about this 'new conditioning' in non-doership if one has no free will to choose it? Hint.... this is a trick question.

All this imaginary nothing matters, it's all the same, it doesn't exist stuff just gives rise to the it does matter, it's all different and it does exist inevitability in the mind..... transcend the hustle.

All of us are born without an inner voice and ego so we all are born "enlightened" if that's your criteria to be it. It develops over time and I don't naturally have one either but it didn't prevent me from developing an ego, identity, attachment or self suffering. Liberation is more than just quieting the mind.

A lingering pain or discomfort is suffering and the type of suffering you are talking about is self suffering. Even though it seems nearly impossible it's actually much simpler to cease self suffering than physical suffering.

Oh that's just a story.... one where you tell others they are missing it but you know the truth then tell them it's really difficult to communicate with someone who thinks they have it all figured out and they aren't open to your stories....you have quite the imagination.

You keep calling it a story... what do you expect? That's what we are doing... descriptions are a story... but you fail to recognize your own story telling. All this you said to me is just a story, it's imaginary and this 'recontexualization' concept is a story you tell yourself which you call truth to satisfy the ego that it 'knows' it. The story that you have a 'meta' view which others are missing is imaginary. The difference is my story exists even if it isn't told, the present exists, the past and future don't even though they are all one thing it presents itself as...the present. Manifest existence is in the present moment, the past and future are imaginary. Yes, they are all one thing as the manifest existence but to experience the past or future we do it in our imagination, the present can punch you in the face...without the imagination. Reality doesn't require your belief, it just is. If you are going to tell me this is a story just punch yourself in the face already. Of course we are telling stories to each other, that's what discussion is, story telling....but you believe yours are the 'truth' which you 'know' and others 'missing'.

I prefer to not use that term very often because it can be interpreted in many ways but legend has it Buddha said 'all beings are enlightened'.

Nope.. it's just another thing the ego wants us to 'do' to accomplish it. Then ironically it creates a distraction from the focused attention which in turn it uses to task us to get back and 'do' the focusing again.

Moving isness.....

You are trying to make a subtle slight of hand, the questions I ask are not ideas to believe in....being just is. Although for me to communicate it to another I conceptualize it so yes have ideas but the ideas don't contribute to being present. These aren't a system of ideas that are believed to be.......it's just being. Don't even have to say present because there isn't any other way to be other than present. The more clear description of it is 'being presence'. There's no thinking about the 'present', no attention to focus on it, no beliefs about it. It's just presence of being which one can experience. Any ideas I share about it are in hopes for someone to let go of the ideas about it and just be.... presence.

The past and the future doesn't exist, there is only present...an unfolding, ever changing present we perceive as having 'time'. Unfolding present creates experience that leaves impressions on our bodies and psyche which we call memories but those are experiences that are just in the imagination.