SOUL

Spirituality, 'enlightenment', awakening and consciousness are very subjective experiences so how they are perceived and interpreted can be quite varied and diverse. It would be an unfortunate circumstance if this forum became a place where the infinite variety of expressions were stifled so that they were limited to select interpretations. I understand this forum is the property of nobody...wait I mean the no self called Leo and he has a vision for it. There is a difference between people who are coming here to purposefully disrupt or mislead for whatever reason they may have and people who may have a differing experience of awakening so share another perception and interpretation. Let's hope this place doesn't become one where only the interpretations and teachings that are 'authorized' by the 'supreme leader' as 'truth' are allowed to be spoken and every one that doesn't fit in are called 'false' with the people who are espousing them 'devils' are shut down and silenced. That would be joyless and unloving situation.

Humanity is very abusive to the point it is blind to it, it's even normalized, not very humane. Online it's so much worse, abuse is celebrated, even more than it is in real life. On this forum it isn't all that abusive but it still is and as a place that I would think is about healing and improving it seems like it harms more because people are coming in vulnerable. It's like going to a therapist and having them hurt the patient. Maybe I'm asking too much but it's just a hope, not necessarily an expectation. So be it.

@VeganAwake Precisely, there was never really a suffer to have suffered. Only if we agree with it, believe in it, attach our identity to it and fill our being with it does it manifest as suffering in us. It's not just undesired thoughts...even desired thoughts. It may start out as releasing from what we don't want but even attaching to what we do want can be a source of suffering. The thoughts of wanting truth, enlightenment, awakening, freedom from suffering, bliss, love is conceptually perceiving a lack of it as if we don't already have all we seek, that we are incomplete. The 'desire' is a yearning as if we don't already have it like hunger is from an empty belly but that yearning is the desire in our consciousness that can fill our being with a sense of emptiness. In liberation there is a sense of fulfillment that quenches the yearning, a peace that transcends conditions, joy that emanates through everything we experience. What's ironic is that when I first did experience liberation I was pretty ignorant of so many things but I didn't even have any desire to understand, I was content in the freedom from self suffering. Yet my lack of desire for knowledge turned out to be the very key to the vault of insight like being served endless meals with already having a full belly and no hunger. So, yes, seeking 'truth' can put some on the treadmill chasing after something they perceive they don't have to feed the desire. It's a yearning that won't ever be quenched because the mind's craving for new knowledge and deeper understanding acts like a belly that needs to be fed 3 times a day to fill it...but only temporarily. The ego will use the search for truth and any perceived truth it gets to justify it's identity but that ego's desire is so difficult to satisfy, the ego won't let it.

Liberation is self unsuffering from whatever means it comes to be. If is happens through unknowing, unlearning, unbelieving, unattaching, unselfing, untruthing as long as the the quest for un-ning doesn't become a source of self suffering because we think need more or are lacking enough 'un-ness'.

Then say Hm I will continue to do introspection to see if these things you say are accurate, thank you.

Do you have any lowest teaching? I'm not smart enough for the highest stuff...hehe

@ivankiss When one brings light of awareness to life things that reflect that same light glow like a gem but fallacies tend to burn up under the magnifying glass of it...it seems you keep spinning tales that go up in flames in that light. But you can keep projecting onto me if it makes you feel better, I am at peace with it.

Should we also list the detriments? Just asking...hehe

@ivankiss It wasn't me who was weaving a story from empty points but I did expose the false narrative being woven and if there is a fire it is the straw man burning. Good luck with that epic story you are writing and living I just hope it's more genuine than the one you were creating here with our discussion. Peace.

Hopefully not as the last chance to save a dying civilization....

Yea, because there aren't the ages worth including this current one filled with 'masters' talking to seekers and even cashing in on people listening to them talk. So they scamming?

@ivankiss You have put to me about 'honesty' a couple times in our exchange so far but I'd like to point out something that requires your honesty. I clearly explained what I consider useful about stories in relation to self suffering and yet you ignored it to try to make an empty point about we all get to decide what is useful. Gosh, I never thought of that. You might have used that as an opportunity to explain what you find useful but, no, just say an obvious thing about subjectivity. Hmmmm, honesty, huh? Then I comment about two different types of math, the materialist one where the 'sum' is the number of individuals and another one, what I called the holistic one where the 'sum' also includes the individuals as a whole in it. Obviously, the latter is more metaphysical where it has subjectivity in it and is not an objectivity in physics like the former. Then you attempt to chide me with it about what would a neighbor think of me? Should I ask you what a neighbor would think about your story you have been sharing here? I suspect we'd both be taking up residence in lalaland lost in airy fairly tales according to the neighborhood. Hmmmm something something about honesty, right? I'm pleased that the seeking of stories isn't a source of self suffering for you, though behaviors can be an indicator of it and there are very many who aren't as fortunate. The stories of self identity and chasing 'truths' or explanations of 'what is' often serve as a source of self suffering. Can we honestly deny that isn't a common occurrence, hm? I can appreciate you losing interest if there isn't honesty in a discussion because I'm losing interest in this one. Honesty is also being genuine in communicating with others especially in presenting differing visions because we can learn from each other if we are open. @VeganAwake Powerful questions. Suffering is the instance of pain, discomfort or distress. When we are in presently occurring physical suffering it is different than when that suffering is from the self conscious. We stub our toe it hurts the toe, that's physical suffering but when we experience self conscious anguish over stubbing our toe it's self suffering. Stub the toe and we put ice on it. Now the self conscious in the mind might chatter on with 'Clumsy fool why do I always do that AARRGGG!' How do we ice the mind? There is also the self conscious focusing on the past or the future. The toe doesn't hurt anymore a week later but the mind might still be scolding us for it. The self conscious will create all sorts of mental and emotional pain, discomfort and distress from events in the past we currently aren't experiencing and potential future experiences that we imagine may happen. This type of self suffering is only in our imagination and yes it is rooted in attaching to the self as an identity. There is also self suffering that the ego presents as currently happening to us but is just in the imagination. Maybe someone innocently or not says something and it triggers the self conscious to think it's being hurt by it, 'How dare they say that!' It creates mental and emotional distress but if we in awareness agree with this perception we self suffer and may behave in reaction to the imagined pain. Since I spoke about it in this thread I will address how the self conscious will create distress from the pursuit of 'truth', meaning, knowledge, happiness, 'enlightenment' and even freedom from suffering. Essentially the self conscious perceives us as incomplete and this can be the source of self suffering. Our agreement with this perception is attaching to the identity of lacking or absence. When we agree and attach to them even if they were only slight or minimal in effect initially the agreement attention given will create a feedback loop that intensifies and empowers them as 'real' for us and our identity to it. This is also the situation with past and future imaginings we can empower with agreement attention. Accepting is more passive but there can also be some empowering endorsement in that so be aware of this. 'Telling it to stop' in effect is also empowering that identity attachment to continue instigating in our mind sensations of thoughts, emotions and perceptions even if we are resisting or fighting them so that can be the source of self suffering. A more effective way is to remain in awareness observing them in equanimity and clarity. Be as such that there is no place for the mind's antics to stick to. Wow.... this post is maybe the longest I ever wrote here. I'm done. hah

@ivankiss I don't think in terms of enlightenment or of more or less of it. I didn't come in here quibbling about the details of the story, I was making a distinction...you know distinction, you spoke about it in your first post, I was pointing to the distinction between the story telling and liberation. The story telling can be useful if it serves the cessation of self suffering but quite often it is a distraction from liberation and the pursuit of or disagreement about the 'absolute truth' story can be a source of self suffering. This discussion can be another example of a distraction. Except, I won't let it be for my own experience, I didn't initially speak about the conceptual dualism in your story and it wasn't a ruse to display any self-righteousness, it's was an opportunity to speak about the experience of ....self-sufferless. Even when I did bring up details of the story it was prompted by your assertion and it was to explain how I did understand it. Though, it's not about the story or the story telling, that's the point, the story telling of identity and attachment to the story is the source of self suffering. I do 'create'...a being in liberation every moment. From that being in liberation every expression I 'create' is empowered with transcendent peace, joy and fulfillment in every work of art, music and, yes, story. Though, I don't hold up my story as an 'absolute truth', it's just a story in my imagination. So we could continue in the distraction of attachment to the story and telling it or we could transcend that and instead cease self suffering. If we do continue in the distraction then let's marvel at how the materialist math of 1+1=2 differs from the holistic math of 1+1=3, it's amazing, huh. The story can also be told of the absolutes...wait...absoluteS? Yes, infinity, eternity and nonentity and they are in unity, the transcendent absolute. So consciousness is really the baby of a threesome.....I bet you didn't know existence was so kinky, hah We sure do love our stories...haha But yea....I find the cessation of self suffering a more worthwhile endeavor than story telling but that's just my story.

Oh look, it's an ego. I'm aware of something about your story that you don't even understand. There is no duality, even if consciousness is the first expression of the 'absolute' it's not dualism. There's the 'absolute', consciousness and the holistic unity of them so it's a trinity from the from first expression of the whole. Yea, it's bedtime for bonzo....haha. Let me know when you awake from the story telling.

I can appreciate the story you are telling although it's still is just a story in your imagination. It seems like so many want to be the story teller that reveals the 'absolute truth' but all the stories are born out of the hierarchical priming in the imagination of a primitive mind. Liberation is a more worthwhile endeavor, the cessation of self suffering has genuine lasting effect in people's lives. These esoteric stories can be a distraction and the seeking of them often serve as a source of continued self suffering. Yet, people sure do love their stories....

It is said that nothing matters so kiss the bunny already

This concept of 'nothing matters' is to motivate a release of attachment to 'things'. Yet, that can be without the concept which proves for very many who encounter it to be an obstacle to the cessation of self suffering from the attachment to things, not ironically having attachment to the idea 'nothing matters'. I probably could have just lead with that but I doubt it would have changed much because people really do cling tightly to their ideas. Also, if 'god' is 'unknowable' why do people ascribe meaninglessness to 'god'? Didn't you say it's unknowable? Haha... I likely started a whole new 'thing'.

Woah, someone said I was a little hard but this here turned into a dog pile....hah Not to 'do' it. Be it.

Well, it's laughably simple and obvious, cease to be attached in awareness to them. Haha Oh...and release any desire to be aware of it... that's the challenging aspect.

I can appreciate your eloquent and poetic words in describing the knowing you have grasped about what you claim can't be described, grasped or known. We can be aware of the whole and I suggest keep transcending the perceived limits on what can be described, grasped or known. Here is a hint...when you get to 'I am god'...keep going because even that can be transcended to where 'I'....'am'... and 'god' cease to be....not just in concept, but in awareness. Peace.

@Inliytened1 Perhaps, although, I've seen Leo go way harder on people here and I would even perceive it sometimes as bullying using his stature to do so. Yet, I do apologize if I did, it wasn't my intention to harm anyone. If you follow the exchange we were having maybe you can see what I did in it and this was my intention by prodding them into examining and addressing what I was exploring. I will leave it alone though, again, my apologies.

@VeganAwake Your belief system is yours... it isn't any sort of absolute or universal truth, it's just your own truth, no matter how many others agree with you, how much you believe in it or polish your ego with 'no higher teaching' rhetoric..... it's all in your imagination. It's not the middle way, it's a modern version of aesthetics that Buddha encountered in his day but the belief is centered around psychological self. The extremes are the egocentric on one side and the no-self on the other. You may eventually awaken to the genuine nature of being and come to understand how the meaning/meaningless conceptualization is another way the ego uses dualism in it's 'spiritual self'. Holistic being embraces, honors and celebrates the whole. There is a oneness that we relinquish our attachment to the individual self to awaken to but once we do that oneness empowers our individual self to be a genuine unique expression of the whole like one facet out of infinite number on a gem that each glows when the light hits it. I awakened to it through an autodidact path experience but I'm aware that some people require an internet guru to say it so here.....

Your words are meaningless yet you glorify them, curious...hm You believe it isn't belief..... interesting, hm.

@Inliytened1 I think something along that theme was addressed in the first couple pages. Too often the spiritual 'path' as presented by so many of the 'no-self/nothingness' teaching is just a rejection of everything physical which isn't an accepting way to live life but it also presents a conflict with actually living life. What I speak about is embracing life in it fullest but isn't dependent on the circumstances of life to be fulfilled. Don't seek it.... be it.

A circle has one side.....but that still fits with the story you are telling though.... infinite and one ...haha.