SOUL

After many years of playing basketball I still suck at it as bad as I did before so basketball is a scam and basketball coaches are scammers.

@Raptorsin7 Each one of us has a unique path in life and our perceptions are often influenced by our experiences so how we express the journey will not be the same. Me explaining my experience that may or may not have any similarity to anyone else is really an insignificant exercise and can distract others so more descriptions may not clarify anything. The work we do differs, the time we spend differs and if we do spend any time on doing any work differs. Again I will just point out that we can experience in being the 'fulfillment of the path' at any and every moment along the way while we do or don't do whatever it is we do or don't do for however long it does or doesn't take,

Although, God is all things and everything is nothing while ego that isn't really a thing is thinking about all of it which is an illusion...

Oh look... another mystical dick measuring contest so I say this in the most spiritual way possible, there is no dick because what you think you have is really just infinite absolute nothingness.

@Raptorsin7 Will answers to those questions satisfy the desires of the meddling mind? Complete understanding isn't a requirement for liberation. The body suffers and stopping the body's suffering isn't needed for liberation. Liberation is the cessation of SELF suffering. I can't even get one person to stop obsessing over getting answers to questions so why would you think any one person can change the issues and suffering of humanity?

The mind never allows us to be liberated, it even fixates on 'bliss' or 'love' or 'freedom' as something to attain and creates questions that need answers, explanations that need to be understood, reasons that need to be met and methods needed to be done. The mind loves the quest, it craves the story, it desires the distraction but it will never allow liberation to be realized because then we recognize the mind is what is keeping us from it. As long as one wants the process and the self justification the mind is addicted to instead of liberation from self suffering then that is what one will have. What's in the title of the thread? Give up the search...it's not a search because there's nothing lost. It's a journey and we can experience the destination of that journey along the way, the fulfillment is in every step of the path through experiencing the whole journey as one.

@Raptorsin7 I said nothing about divine....and we all have a story. Our flesh embodies being so it can experience harm and scar, the mind remembers the harms and scars then presents them to our awareness for agreement... for belief. Which you say you have been doing all the practice of recognizing 'aware being' stuff, well use that 'aware being' stuff to be aware of the healing. So when the mind/body experience generates the trauma the healing is already present. The body/mind may continue to generate the trauma for as long as the body exists yet the 'aware being' still can have the holistic healing of well being. So in essence, even if we trip over the hoop instead of jump through it and land on our face we can still experience the well being of liberation while doing it. It's not like life stops hurting, harm and scar still happens but the self suffering ceases. When healing is the primary focus of aware being the story the mind creates isn't an obstacle for well being. The only limitation to our experience of liberation are what we imagine are there. That video is saying endorse the dualism of the emotional and mental roller coaster. My message is that well being can exist regardless of how you view the happenings of our manifest existence and how one handles it all. Liberation isn't found in our views and or dues.

So now you experience the bliss of liberation? Congrats, the cessation of self suffering is really the point of all of the 'work' we think is done. If not.... then you have to wonder if it's the 'work' that is the obstacle to liberation. The mind loves all sorts of practices and methods it accomplishes to establish progress to itself, to justify the process but it will always place another task we need to accomplish to keep us on the treadmill of it's 'work'. Many of those practices and methods can be helpful in training the mind to do something it may not do on it's own but the experience of being doesn't require the mind to be... it's being. So we can experience being 'happy' even while the mind may do the work it thinks is accomplishing something. If your present experience is the bliss of liberation this would be obvious to you and maybe it is, don't let me be an obstacle to it. Just be it.

I can understand why it seems like it should be pretty complicated because if it was simple everyone would be 'happy'. I too have an active mind, one that is always turning over rocks to see what they are and what's under them. The mind wants to search for a reason, to make a plan, to do the things to attain this ever elusive 'happiness'. We get sick of the people who point to the obvious, we want the elaborate dance of inner debate that will get us the trophy. Nobody wants to hear that it's simple.... the search for happiness ends when we finally realize it's as simple as being happy.... just be it. The only thing that prevents us from being happy is all the things that the mind finds to keep us from being it. So just be happy no matter all that the mind finds to deny happiness in it's search for happiness.

Seems like it would be obvious

Life

Dualism being taught as profound? hm

It sounds familiar... I think someone said something about it thousands of years ago.... hmmmm

My greatest contribution to this thread would be to suggest subtraction.... clear your mind of all this clutter. The ego loves to view all this conceptualizing as 'serious inquiry' when it truly is nothing more than distracting from being... just being.

It's amusing to think that any of you are actually real people who exist in the world with this nonsense you are distracting yourself with so apparently you have very vivid imaginations and the distinction between reality and delusion is indistinguishable for some.

Do you ever get tired of all this fretting and fussing over pretty much nothing? The analyzing and intellectualizing with all the thinking and contention about what exactly? What value is all of it for? Take a breathe and just be...

I've met a few drainbows...

To say something which has an appearance does not exist because that appearance can be perceived other than the way it appears is like saying a rainbow isn't a rainbow because it isn't really the colors splashed across the sky as it appears it is. It potentially can be a rainbow of colors in the sky as well as being light refracted through water in an atmosphere as well as being layers of vibrations as well as being something perceived in the imagination of layers of vibrations as well as things I can't even describe all at once. All the words and concepts we use are trying to capture a story of experience so we can communicate to another we imagine is there the perception of awareness in being but are lacking for what we use them. The personified sense of self in our psychological mind thinking it knows 'what is' is what it does to cope with not knowing anything at all so we tell our self a story....tell me again what you know... I'm curious.... really, I love a good story.

Quite often the sense of self's personified manifestations take on an adversarial or toxic relationship within us and for those that do inner work it can become a kind of 'holy war' in how they try to eradicate this perception of separation. The word illusion is tossed around so regularly yet it seems like how one defines this word can establish the dynamic within our consciousness and it's constituent manifestations. If we define illusion as 'does not exist' it can set up a conflict between the sense of self that is the naturally occurring experience of out physical life and our awareness which can transcend the sense of separate self. If we instead define the word illusion 'not as appears' it allows for us to recognize the sense of self for what it is without setting up an adversarial dynamic within our consciousness. We can recognize that both the sense of separate self in it's naturally occurring form and the transcending of it in absolute sense of being can and does coexist. We can expand our awareness to include both of them in a harmonious relationship. Our absolute sense of well being will not be disturbed by the manifesting of the physical sense of separate self, the absolute well being will fill our whole conscious experience including the sense of separate self instead of the sense of separate self disrupting the absolute well being so cause self suffering. This is why it seems like so many seekers who define illusion as 'does not exist' will struggle for so long and rarely liberate from self suffering. They have created and perpetuated an adversarial dynamic within their consciousness and as long as they are alive with the physical body manifesting the sense of separate self this dynamic can persist. Yet if we define illusion as 'not as appears' we can see through the manifestations of self for what they are and still the absolute well being fills our consciousness, our whole being. We can then celebrate life, the joy, love, laugh, dance, mourn, cry, hurt and all it involves yet the transcendent absolute well being flourishes. So while some may say it's only a matter of semantics in the difference between the two definitions I suggest it creates how one perceives in awareness what dynamic unfolds in our consciousness and inner life.

@Loba As amazing as the visions and insights we can attain in awakening are these really the point of the inner work we do? The self seeks to adorn it's identity with those visions and insights from the experiences of awakening as someone would fill their home with baubles and trinkets from the trips they have taken. In liberation we realize freedom from self suffering so if these do not fulfill liberation then they are a distraction from it.

@Loba Even though we may chart our own path free from the influence of others it still may be that we become attached to our own stories and they can become anchors that stop our growth. If we have an epiphany or inspiring revelation this can create an deep connection to it in us and quite often the appreciation for it will grow into a clinging to it. Now it's understandable that we might cherish these insights and experiences since it has personal significance in our spiritual evolution although it is helpful to remind ourselves it still is an evolution. If we are continuing to transform our inner life eventually we will have to leave those behind as well. Quite often we may continue to circle back to them in hopes to rekindle that sensation of awe in awakening yet this can generate the attachment to them. There is nothing wrong or bad about them but they are like landmarks on a journey, if we keep returning to them we aren't really going to get anywhere because we are walking in circles.

Are you attached to these questions? Are you attached to getting answers? Are you attached to the answers you get? Are you attached to knowing and understanding so ask the questions seeking answers? You don't need to reply.... I'm not attached to the questions, getting the answers, the answers or knowing it.

Let's look at the definition of the word perfect and it will make sense. When people think of perfect they often go to the idea of flawless or an ideal standard. Although, there is also another idea of perfect I have highlighted by the larger size font: total, complete, lacking nothing essential and absolute. So when considering 'how is this perfect' we can understand it as being pure, absolute, total and complete...it's lacking nothing essential, including flaws. Flaws are included in this understanding of perfect because it is total and complete. We can reason through why we need the adversity, how it helps, what we can learn and we can rationalize how pain and suffering is necessary for us, how we can grow from it and it's role in the cycle of life. These intellectual pursuits are merely to satisfy our own desires to know why and to understand but they are just that, stories to satiate and protect our self identity. This dovetails into the message of the thread starter and it was right there simply in the definition of the word but we mostly overlook it.

This perspective I will be sharing is a challenging one and it isn't the first time I have shared it here, albeit not as extensively, and many other places as well. It isn't exclusive to this forum or this topic, in fact, it would be very unusual and a rarity to not experience it in life. There is a significant amount of priming that goes on in spirituality, well, in everything. We repeatedly get exposed to things like concepts and understandings that form paradigms in the mind. Books read, videos viewed, seminars attended and even in conversations with people all around us. You might see this as a positive thing to learn from others who have already experienced so gain insights and wisdom instead of wander aimlessly in a maze. Undoubtedly, many benefit from this and find significant progress from the sharing that comes from others. The issue that arises with this type of work is that we are exploring something that is formless so the concepts and understandings are merely stories that we project into the formless and not something that are innately there...because it's formless. Few realize this and fewer want to accept it. So even though these stories can help the only 'truth' that they represent is the significance that we give to them. These stories being handed down from generation to generation that even Leo was primed with and then goes on to influence others with are just a map....not the territory, which is formless. Sure, as we evolve the stories evolve with us and the current state of detail and complexity that is shared will eventually become antiquated even if they continue to provide guidance to others in the future. Although, as intricate as they are and become they are still just stories about something formless. I'm not a gamer but I understand human nature, when a new game comes out and the secrets about it get discovered, the loot boxes, the hacks and cheat codes, the tricks and tips that open new stuff and levels the players gets excited about it and they are obsessed with it all. These things that might have been benefits may also turn out to be detriments and what was once viewed as helpful may turn out to be hindrances. The stories that were intended to be guidance can often become distractions and stumbling blocks. Quite often what happens is that people become attached to the stories, they identify with the stories and they spend much time on the stories. They will discuss and compare stories with others in contention about the right and wrong or true and false of them. Even in reading this there will be some who agree or disagree with me even to the point they are compelled to chime in about it. Let me be clear, our liberation isn't dependent on our stories, in fact, the stories may inhibit liberation if we allow them to. Even more ludicrous would be to allow other's fascination with their stories to distract oneself from liberation let alone one's own fascination with our own stories to distract. Liberation includes freedom from the stories, the attachment to them and the self suffering that attachment creates. Wanting to understand someone's teachings is just wanting to understand their story and it's wanting to make it your own story. Seek liberation so your own story will unfold naturally and then ultimately we transcend the stories since.... our being is formless.

I came across him more than a decade ago and there was always something about him that was off putting but I could never really put my finger on what it was. I just watched some of his recent stuff and now it's very clear to me what it is. Very logical way of trying to systematize his experience and another who thinks their perception is the ultimate truth that most everyone but him can't understand. He holds alot of grudgy and judgmental energy much like Peterson does, in many ways he's a precursor to JP. This leads to a lack of well being in him and his effect on his followers doesn't seem geared towards well being, it's an exercise in 'I'm right' and 'I know the truth' in an egoic stroking. Then I came across some really yikes comments from him about eugenics...or as he called it 'soft eugenics' that he tried to backtrack from it as it appears he realized how this would be received. How people should apply to have children and other people, the ultra-intelligent would decide who is or isn't allowed to breed and what traits are the desired ones. Of course he put himself in the group of people who would be the deciders and how they should be the ones who controlled society....even though he constantly whines about the others who he doesn't like or respect he thinks controls society. Again this stinks of the self appointed authority of all that is right and good that Peterson also exudes in his attitude. Other than that his ideas are pretty common in the quantum consciousness ideology that has been circulating in the new age for like 50 years except he uses alot of complicated jargon to make it sound especially esoteric because he's still battling with a self induced conflict with a perceived opposition. We can see the fruit of someone's inner work in how they behave and for all his high minded ideas he comes across as still self suffering. So if liberation is something you seek in experience I'm not sure he's got much for you. It's not a matter or right or wrong, true or false and good or evil for me, it's about cessation of self suffering, liberation is the fruit I cultivate. Though to each their own way.