spinderella

So, theoretically speaking, who is deciding who gets what "rights"? I'm not challenging you, I just want to understand.

I have a feeling the thread is going to get shut down soon, but I wanted to say that I also find the history of how germ theory came to be the predominant "ideology" fascinating! I think after watching Leo's series on the myth of science, we can all agree that germ theory is an ideology, nor did it even make 100% perfect sense, even when it was first adopted. I'm also not saying that it's false, we have epidemiological data that show vaccines appear to work. But even that data can be critically analyzed (if, you're able to it on the social matrix giant Google, some of it's on duckduckgo). But as I understand it, Leo's saying that our logic and philosophizing about the history and truth here doesn't matter because people believe their lives are at stake. No, I don't think it should be like that. I wish the world wasn't in such a fear response, and I wish others we more open to the possibility that this is as big a deal as it's been made out to be. But, others have a direct experience that is different than mine, and that's reality for them. Others live through the tv and believe what they see, and that's reality for them. However, when people believe their survival is at risk, they will take you down if they feel like you're questioning the belief system that makes them feel safe in the face of death. And for the record, I'm not anti-vaccine - I actually have the vaccine. I just want to feel more at peace with all the conflict going on. I don't ideologically agree with the way this is being handled and have a newfound distrust of the government after being a Canadian liberal my entire life, where everybody I knew growing up my was also liberal. I'm not sure my spiral dynamics stage on this, since I have distrust (which I think is blue?), but I also understand how vaccines work and intimately understand the healthcare system (orange?) and I've also been vaccinated (green?). I mostly keep my opinions to myself, while just lying to people and agreeing with them so I don't lose all my friends. Can someone tell me what they think? It's important to me that I take this opportunity to grow. Am I stuck in blue? Or is there a way I can move from here through to yellow without agreeing with what's going on? Maybe I just agree with a different, non-conflicting energy? I guess I do feel like I can do this, but I get SO much backlash. Maybe it's more about how I handle the backlash?

Not taking a side here, but using stabbing as an example assumes that we're talking about something lethal here. It seems that most anti-vax or vaccine skeptical people don't actually believe that covid is dangerous. Which kind of renders the stabbing comparison useless. It's not that they don't care about the wellbeing of others, they just don't believe the wellbeing of others is truly at risk.

Fair, I am born in a first world country so I don't know what it's like. Anyway, I hope you stay safe. Thanks for your perspective.

And we can't forget the mass fear of Covid itself, too. Fear is everywhere. I prefer to think that viruses are natural occurrences, humanity will be fine, we'll adapt, our immune systems are strong, the virus will mutate and we'll continue to adapt. I don't think there's too much fear in my thinking, personally, but I'm getting the impression that people think I'm an asshole because I'm not afraid. It's not that I don't care about people - I just believe that we're stronger than we think.

@Mannyb For the record, I do agree with your comments about msm, and I think what Leo's saying makes sense. Doesn't matter what we think, really, since people believe their survival is at stake. At least I think that's what he's saying And it's kind of interesting just to notice that forums and media platforms that censor information are usually run by people who believe that survival is at stake from the virus. So it makes sense that they "shoot you at the door", as Leo says. Those who are more open to the discussion don't believe that survival is at stake, so they allow the conversation to continue. It actually makes perfect sense.

Fair, I will check those videos out. But I feel like I'll believe it when I see it, or when my friends with families in India tell me their firsthand experience of what they have seen. For example, one of the doctors I work with (albeit he is a doctor and probably comes from a privileged family) told me his entire family, who live in India, and are mostly elderly, already had Covid and are fine, going about life as usual. I feel like I don't know what to believe, but I think what you're basically saying about survival is that it doesn't really MATTER what I believe - since the masses are afraid to the point where (they believe) it impacts their survival, I can either get on board with the grand scheme or be overtaken. That actually makes sense to me. It gives me a place to hold onto my personal beliefs and skepticism while accepting that what society wants is what they will get, and ultimately whatever happens is what God "wants", because, that's the only thing that's possible anyway.

I actually do value the lives of people who aren't healthy and young, however I am annoyed that we've spent all this money and time on a vaccine instead of helping people stop eating processed garbage and get off the pharmaceuticals that make them susceptible to the virus in the first place. I think that's where I'm coming from. Edit, after browsing the forum on this topic, I don't understand why threads about the vaccine get locked. So I'll drop it, cause it seems like it's heading into that realm, but I would really just like to know how to move through my current mindset into a more peaceful place.

Because I don't believe that Covid actually killed 1 milion+ people, because I know that the way disease was coded in hospitals in the US claimed covid as the cause of death even if the patient died of cancer. I know that sounds conspiratorial, but since I work in the hospital I feel I've seen that happen firsthand, and there was definitely a reimbursement incentive to include covid on a death certificate. That part isn't conspiracy, it's well-known that reimbursement drives care and diagnosis in the US. I don't like that I believe that, I'd rather not. But how do I just refute what I literally have seen? Or if you look at the year over year mortality data in Canada, for example. You can't even see a blip in 2020, it looks right on-trend. And I don't trust the "scientists" who used "algorithms" to determine excess-deaths from covid. I want raw data, 2019 total global or US deaths, and 2020 total global or US deaths. This data seems difficult to find. All you can find are the algorithms used to determine how many people "should have" died in 2020. This is the loop I'm stuck in.... I guess that any number of people dying from any cause should be a concern, I just don't know why we're so focused on stopping Covid at all costs when we could spend all that government money and all this media awareness on stopping eating garbage food, when heart disease has been the #1 cause of death for a long time now.

Yeah, your "so what?" questions are valid. Really, so what nothing. It doesn't really matter, information will get out to the masses when it does, they'll believe it or fight it as they choose, and that's kind of it. I guess this is true, and always has been true. And I can see that some people really do feel like Covid is a death sentence. If I'm honest I think where I'm getting tripped up is that I'm judging people who actually believe covid is a death sentence to the healthy, young majority because I'm attached to my viewpoint that the data pretty clearly shows that it's not. And when people (like my friends) try to get me to see their point of view, which I believe is closed-minded and sheep-like, I have some kind of emotional reaction. I don't show it (I don't think), but it's still there. I got into a conversation with a friend last night because he thinks that anyone who doesn't have the vaccine is selfish and doesn't care about other people, and that they should be forced to get it. I respectfully disagreed, but now I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm an anti-science nutcase who doesn't care about the well-being of the population, which isn't true. Maybe on some level I just want people to agree with me, and I'm uncomfortable if they don't. Yeah, I think I might be missing some necessary nuance in my skepticism. What is your perspective on it? And nope, I definitely don't feel like "I am government" in this moment lol. Nor do I really feel like "I am" the friend who I spoke with last night, though this is easier for me to see. I think I'd like to evolve my position so I don't feel so attached to it, or maybe I'm just attached to the fact that people don't agree with me. Basically, I feel "hooked" or "attached" in some way and I'd like to resolve that. Thanks for your feedback

I've read Leo's critiques of Sam Harris, and (from my infantile level of awakening and consciousness) understand most of them, particularly the scientific / rationalist / materialist arguments. I've not listened to much of Sam's stuff besides the "Waking Up" app, which I'm finding very helpful. It's more of exercises to experience that you are consciousness, rather than a pure witnessing. For somebody with a really busy brain like me who has imperfectly but consistently practiced (and struggled to get results from) meditation for a decade, it's been helpful in a pretty fast and profound way. I'm curious if anyone here has gone through the meditations on the Waking Up app, and what the criticisms of them might be? I notice I'm getting a little attached to this app (which I know is just my mind wanting to find "the answer") and am interested in having a more balanced perspective.

@OneHandClap Thank you! Yes, I can see that my brain / mind / whatever really wants an answer, and yes I can let it chill out. I think what I'm realizing is that I want to know the fundamental differences in materialism (from the perspective Sam Harris is teaching from) versus idealism. There are plenty of videos on youtube about this. I don't see if Leo has one, aside from the Quantum mechanics debunks Materialism. Either way, my brain is in a knot and trying to "figure it out" never seems to be the answer, so yeah, I will chill for a bit and revisit

You guys are all amazing, thanks for such a thoughtful discussion. I will definitely watch this immediately. Thank you. I'm also a bit confused about the "conflating the wooden table with wood" comment, but I think this is kind of helping me understand. I can grasp (well, as much as is possible) that consciousness is the only thing that exists. I guess I don't really understand the basis on which Harris says that idealism is wrong? I think he's saying that "we can't know if consciousness is the only thing that exists", and idealism is saying "yes we do know that consciousness is the only thing that exists." But yeah I still don't understand the wooden table / wood comment. Is it that to "conflate" means to combine two things into one, implying that there ARE two things? So in order to conflate, you have to see them as separate in the first place?

Thank you, I think I understand better. I'm not totally confident, but sometimes I have to bask in the discomfort of "not knowing" for a minute. Appreciate your insight.

What could be beyond consciousness if it is the substrate of everything? I always remember Leo's example of clay, if the (magical) clay can make everything, I guess the question I'm trying to figure out is "what is the clay"? Leo says it's nothing, Sam says "we don't know what it is?". Is this the discrepancy?

Okay, thank you - this is helpful. So Sam believes that there is something "real" that is outside of consciousness, that we are experiencing with consciousness? Is that kind of basically it? And, by extension, this would also mean that he believes that "things" are real, whereas what Leo is saying is that nothing is real, it's just a projection of our mind (consciousness). Is that kind of accurate?

I'd love to better understand what you mean by his metaphysical delusions. I just know there's a nuance I'm missing and would really like to understand it.

I'd like to understand this better, mostly because I think there's nuance in here my mind is missing. So if he doesn't believe that consciousness is the metaphysical ground of reality, which I'm interpreting to mean "everything", what does he think? It seems that he starts off saying that things "appear in consciousness", which seems incorrect since things actually ARE consciousness, but later in the app it seems like he's now demonstrating that there are no boundaries between our "awareness" and "things", and that everything is the same. I'm not 100% clear on exactly what the discrepancy in ideology is, and I'd love if someone could help me see it.

Yes, this was really fascinating for me. This one, as well as the meditations of trying to find the "borders" or edges of awareness (impossible), and even that when you close your eyes, your visual field is not "empty". Other meditations I've really like that he has done are based on "headlessness", which is really kind of mind blowing. I've just been finding them pretty mind opening in a way I haven't experienced with other meditations, but didn't want to fall into some trap of misunderstanding. Thank you for sharing your experience!

I was doing a little contemplation on my body because I noticed that I was criticizing it. I decided that I want to live life with great appreciation for this perfect, miraculous body apparatus. So I was writing out statements that resonated with the vibration of "appreciation". And on my 10th statement, I wrote.... "This body is giving my consciousness an experience of consciousness". And I think I've tied my brain in a knot. Like, is "MY consciousness" even a thing? If my mind, all the contents of it, including all thoughts and every possible thing in the universe IS consciousness, is "this body apparatus that is consciousness" allowing consciousness to experience consciousness? And when I say that this body is giving my consciousness an experience of consciousness, what do I even mean by "my consciousness"? Am I falsely identifying myself as my mind, or soul, or some THING that is separate from consciousness?

@Leo Gura And the body is also consciousness, right? Since an imagined thing (or dream, which is basically a thought) would also be consciousness... EDIT: So wait - since everything besides consciousness is imagined by the mind (which = consciousness), everything is a dream. And therefore, everything is consciousness.

I was doing one of Leo's older meditations on self-love, and he asks us to bring to mind a memory of the feeling of love. During the meditation we go more deeply into the actual experience of the feeling of love. For some reason, I seem to have a very difficult time actually feeling love. I focus on the heart, I try to allow myself to feel, but I just feel...bored. Flat. Not exactly "numb", but I don't feel anything in particular. This isn't a new experience, and I'm also not new to meditating. I didn't have a particularly traumatic childhood or anything, but I can't seem to muster up the actual vibrational feeling of love. It's almost as if I am blocked in some way. In general, I think I feel quite blocked emotionally. I've used psychedelics and actually have a very hard time, I feel like I have a lot of resistance that I can't let go of, and I think it's blocking my experiences both with psychedelics and in real life. I don't seem to know how to let this resistance go, and flow with an experience. Any advice?

@Leo Gura Thanks Leo, I know you are right re: tears of joy. I'm stuck in 'selfishness' in the form of fear, for the most part. Thank you for your comments about finding the beauty of life and basking in it. I know that I love the sound of certain instruments like violin and piano, I love the sound of birds singing, I love birds in general. I love dance and spinning around and I love all different kinds of flowers. I love the smell of a new book. It makes me feel sad to see how I have been living in a way so disconnected from the admittedly very simple things that could open me up to feel actual love. I'm just going too fast trying to get somewhere indiscernible for no good reason. You have given me some things to contemplate. Thank you.

@Leo Gura Thanks Leo, I agree that I am missing the fundamental appreciation that anything exists. All I feel on a regular basis is separation, and I know I'm missing the directly felt experience that I am all of these things. I've had fleeting moments of profound gratitude for the fact that anything exists, but they have been few and far between. But, they feel like "home". I've done high doses of mushrooms and I've done ayahuasca a few times as well, but I have so much resistance that I don't ever "break through". I try to release resistance and just be open and accept, but it doesn't seem to be working. I've considered 5MEO-DMT, but I'm afraid of what will happen with my current level of resistance.

@Cepzeu Oh my god. Thank you for this.