jjer94

Let the thoughts rave on. Let them be as crazy they are. Then, the moment you're not able to latch onto any thought and you get into panic mode, ask yourself, "What dies?" After some contemplation, follow that question up with, "What am I so afraid of?" Maybe writing down some answers to that second question will give you a new perspective. Don't continue reading until you've done this. Do you see how fear is running your life? You're trying to be a certain way for everyone else because 1. You want to maintain security (which is an illusion, by the way. Your body can cease functioning this very moment) and 2. You've mistaken yourself to be something that is transient, and so you're scrambling to keep that identity together. Use what I suggested above as a way to see that "you" as a thought are dying every moment. Can you see? "You" are dead this very moment. You're coming to this forum pleading "save me," but there is no one to save. Now the real test is whether you'll have the guts to live out this realization so that suffering will be eliminated. This means running towards your fears and never having solid footing ever again. If you're unwilling, then it's best to stop visiting a forum centered around just that. "There came a time when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ---Anais Nin

Lots of people here have different ideas for what that means, so I'm not going to answer that question.

Be careful...this is exactly the kind of spiritual dogma that you want to watch out for. To every rule, there are always exceptions. Enlightenment is a pathless path; there is no process to get to where you already are. Anyone who says you HAVE to do x or y is missing the point. As an example, I didn't meditate before I woke up. It was only a year later that I found Do Nothing particularly useful for my situation. I've also been doing it for a month and a half. Meditation is just one of many tools for seeing through your mind-made illusions, among having other benefits. Sure, it can be useful for everyone in some way, but if I were you I'd avoid going as far to say you NEED to do it. Everyone's situation is different.

I'm making this topic in response to another recent topic called "Do You Have to Have an Enlightenment Experience to Become Enlightened?" I posted something in that topic, but it went off on such a ridiculous tangent that I would have been doing a disservice to the readers. So I pulled a "Pinocchio." I've been skirting around making a long-ass post like this for some time because I personally find this forum to be quite distracting and there's always the risk of spiritual ego...that's why I don't post much anymore. But now, the perspective seems to have changed from getting internet point "bloops" to how I can use this platform as a tool. It's a test of sorts to see how effectively I can use words to express my experience. I'm sure at least one of you will benefit in some way. The urge to write about all this stuff is definitely there...and who knows, maybe a blog of sorts is on the horizon. Now here's the post, paraphrased. The topic question "Do You Have to Have an Enlightenment Experience to Become Enlightened?" is misleading because enlightenment is not an experience. All experiences are fleeting; your true nature is ever present. However, the realization does often happen as an event, and I prefer to call that event an "awakening." Fundamentally, nothing changes after an awakening. Everyone seems to glorify awakenings, like they're so difficult to get. They also make it seem as though it's the end-all-be-all; that once you have an awakening you'll instantly be forever at peace (That happens to probably 0.1% of people). An awakening actually is really dang simple, and it's only the first step on the pathless path of enlightenment. The brunt of the journey is clearing away all the leftover flotsam and jetsam of the self-structure post-awakening; that takes earnestness, as Nisargadatta put it. That's also where meditation and other techniques really start to have a noticeable impact. That's my experience, at least. Right here, right now, an awakening is possible. Sit down, and shut up. Stop telling yourself you're unworthy or you need to meditate more or read "I Am That" for the 124th time, and read this with as much open-mindedness as possible: At this moment, you unconciously believe yourself to be a number of things: an ego, a personality, a body, memory, a spiritual ego, etc. Now notice that all of these things are experiences. Like I said before, all experiences are fleeting, so they couldn't be you. In fact, a lot of your suffering comes from trying to make these fleeting experiences into a solid entity in which you call "you." Kind of like trying to hold onto a rock in the middle of a stream while the water's slapping you in the face. Yet among these passing experiences, something never changes...hmm... At an intimate level, you feel like you're inside the body "looking out." But examine your experience closely...there is only "out". There is no one seeing; there is only seeing. Look at these words. There are only these words. Nobody sees them. The words just appear. The same goes for all other perceptions: there is only perceiving. At a fundamental level, there isn't even such thing as a body; a body is just a part of perceiving. No one is thinking; thoughts just appear. No one hears; there is only sound. There is no "you" inside a body looking out towards an "external world"; in a sense, the external world is inside you. Sights and sounds are just as much "inside you" as thoughts and feelings. You may feel much more open after reading that...good. If all there is is boundary-less perceiving, and you are not perceiving, what is left? What is left when you remove all ideas of a body, of an ego "looking out," of an external world, even of I AM, the sense that you exist? What is left when you remove perceiving? What is left when you remove the entire universe? Forget about your ideas of existence and non-existence for a sec. Just look and see what is! It's not a thing or an experience, but it just is. It's totally impersonal and inconceivable. The moment I try to describe it, I reduce it. It's the silence of sound, the emptiness of a picture, the beingness of touch and taste and feeling and thought. It's the backdrop, not experience but pervading all experience. It's the timeless immovable trunk of a tree, while experience is the transient leaves. It's so empty that it's full. So mysterious, and so alive. Do you see? If you woke up to this, congratulations. Bask in it. Laugh, cry, do a silly dance; the body will probably want to do something. Let it do its thing. Notice how the body animates itself without a "you." Pretty cool, huh? To quote Almost Famous: "It's all just...happening!" Like I said, this is only the beginning. Don't expect that the ego will be completely gone after this. In fact, it may come back even stronger for some time. But that's a story for another day... (In the meantime, this may help.) If you still don't see it, don't fret. Maybe these words just don't resonate with you, and that's okay. Perhaps mind is still in the way. I'd say try refuting more of your beliefs, especially the belief that you're a tiny dot of consciousness in a vast universe full of matter. That's a biggie. What if it were the other way around? (use this and/or this as a possible resource.) And finally, on a side note, those who have examined their experience further may notice the capacity to focus on one perception at a time. I call that the "spotlight," and it can also be used as a gateway to discovering the Truth of what you are. The spotlight may be another intimate sense of "you," but again, it's impermanent (e.g. deep sleep), so it couldn't be the Truth of you. What is the spotlight made of? That's a lot to take in. Okay, that's it! I'm signing off. Go click the like button, share with a friend, and don't forget to sign up to my newslet... Gotcha there, didn't I? Cheers, JJ

....But then there is no longer a "you" to claim ownership of Truth! Aww shucks...

Realize that your perspective is just another perspective, no more truer than the perspective of "conventional society." In fact, all perspectives are fundamentally false because they are finite. There is only the infinite "is."

Stop believing for a moment that the body exists (which fundamentally is the case). What's left? That's just a story. Forget about what you know, and see for yourself in direct experience. There is only perceiving! You are not "In your body"; the body is in you! The body is not perceiving; the body appears in perceiving! Your understanding is the very thing preventing awakening. All of these stories about atoms and emptiness are putting a filter on what is... Remove these filters by seeing them as just stories. There's nothing here to understand intellectually. What's left? Don't expect fireworks It's just your present experience unfiltered!

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I have come out of lurking to nitpick one small thing you said... From what I've read in this thread so far, you don't seem new to this gig. But be careful about saying that one should follow a specific path from a specific tradition. Enlightenment, at the most fundamental level, is just the realization of your True nature (or maybe a better way to put it is the realization of what you're not because Truth is completely inconceivable and "True nature" makes it seem as though it's an entity). True as in, there before "you" were born, here right now, and there in the future. True for eternity. The thing is, any "path" towards enlightenment is not a path, because how can you move towards or away from what you already are? The only obstructions to enlightenment are illusions, and no one method or "authentic tradition" will work for all illusions. This is why you often hear enlightenment being called the "pathless path." Some things work well for some folks, while other things work well for other folks. In fact, following just one tradition can often lead to the individual becoming more entrenched in even more dogma, illusions, and moralizing. I'm looking at you, Buddhism... This particular forum is also a great place to confuse the heck out of people. You're getting dozens and dozens of different answers from caterpillars to a question about butterflies, and then the caterpillars vote for which one sounds the most butterfly-ish. But how do you know that the highest voted post isn't bogus advice...? Being confused about this stuff may actually be beneficial, because it helps you to see the flimsiness of all words. Conceptualize about Truth all you want...it ain't Truth.

For self-realization (Getting flashes of insights): Brutal Beginnings - The Ruthless Arena (This book is almost guaranteed to make you see through the initial veil of selfhood. Don't believe what they're saying; look for yourself. It's simpler than you think.) Refuting the External World - Goran Backlund (This book will forever make life as you know it shimmer like a mirage, as well as help you realize your Atmanic, i.e. "everything", nature.) I Am That - Nisargadatta Maharaj (The clearest pointers to enlightenment, i.e. realizing your Brahmanic or "nothing" nature.) For self-negation (Deprogramming ego): The Enlightenment Trilogy + Theory of Everything - Jed McKenna (These books will put a fire in your ass as well as deprogram a lot of the bullshit you still have in your head. They are kind of dramatic though, so don't take them too seriously...) As Trump said, Peter Ralston's books are great too. Very effective techniques for seeing through all of your egoic flotsam and jetsam. Don't get too lost in his wordiness though.

Existence does exist...just not as phenomena (the world as we know it). That's what @Emerald Wilkins is referring to. Existence exists as you say: pure infinite potential. Also known as Truth, noumena, infinity, Being, nothingness, etc. You cannot "know" existence, because that would put you another level above it. Instead, you can only "be" existence. In a sense, you can really only come to the conclusion that "Truth is" through negating all that you are not.

Of course it's not a belief system (B.S.); it's completely beyond intellect. I try to avoid making grandoise claims, especially when it comes to enlightenment, because claims and arguments are in the realm of finite words, the realm of right and wrong, when there is no right or wrong. Maps are never the territory. But I'm sure you're already aware of that, Mr. Enlightened guy. Look, we can go back and forth all day. I could ask why an old chap like you is on this forum. I could make the argument that you're not really enlightened and you're just launching on "easy prey" because you have nothing better to do. But what's the point? Like any debate with words, they get nowhere. Just one ego defending itself against another, totally unaware of the fact that its arguments are just as untrue as the other's. I will say, your last few sentences there have a certain degree of personal validity, and I sincerely thank you for pointing it out. Fortunately, ego has been getting weaker and weaker by the day, but I do keep finding myself back on this playground of a forum. I'm not mining information; I'm not looking for new B.S. to learn. Just like you, I feel the urge to point out all of the falsities in the questions that people ask here. But of course, there's also the hidden agenda of wanting attention. I think I will take your advice about getting a life, and I hope you do the same, Socrates. Cheers... P.S. "No man is ever old enough to know better."

I never claimed I was enlightened like you did, old man If it's not what I read in the 20+ books about enlightenment, then I may as well just pack up and leave. The thing is, everything about enlightenment is idiosyncratic definitions of individual experiences. It's all hearsay. And if time and time again, I've read that enlightenment is about transcending the finite for the infinite and timeless (i.e. your true nature)... don't you think that's a good enough clue that that may be the case? Not to mention that these books have led to several awakenings of my own. I'd rather follow their definitions and pointers than someone who gives the vague definition of enlightenment as "moment to moment living and discernment." That's more vague than Eckhart Tolle's writing. I'm done here, Socrates. Thanks for trying to push my buttons. I'm serious, thanks. Cheers!

You tell me to stop trying to define enlightenment, but you just defined enlightenment as moment to moment living and discernment... Well, surely you can't define the non-experience of enlightenment with words, but it is something is it not? The sages of the past (Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi) as well as several people today claim to have discovered something they call "enlightenment" or "truth realization" or "full awakening" or whatever. It's not just that they've eliminated all false beliefs and neuroses; they've made the claim that they discovered their true nature, that which is real, eternal, and timeless. Of course, this is all hearsay, but when you have thousands of people making the same claim about their true nature being beyond the body and mind, you can't help but wonder if they're all talking about the same thing...that the concept of enlightenment is perhaps definable...that it could be defined as "the realization of your true nature." Of course, along with that is destroying all false conceptions, but that's kind of a given. So have you actually done that? Gone beyond your finite body and mind to find your true nature, that which is timeless and unassailable? Because if you're just living moment to moment, I'd say you're only at one stretch of the journey towards enlightenment and have a ways to go.

@Socrates Out of curiosity, how do you define enlightenment?

A continuation of this line of inquiry is Derek Parfit's "branch line case." This particular thought experiment points to the idea that you are not your personality, memories, etc... It goes like this: Say you're going to use one of those teletransporters to go to...I don't know, let's say Switzerland. So you hook everything up, flip the switch and...nothing happens. Weird, you think. But then the phone rings. You pick it up, and it's you on the other line! The other you says, "Oh hey there SkyPanther! Greetings from Switzerland! You may be a little confused, but yes, I am a clone of you. The teletransporter malfunctioned and created a duplicate you by mistake. And I've got some bad news for you... the operator told me that the malfunction caused a problem in your heart, and you're going to die within 24 hours. But don't worry SkyPanther! It's not like you'll be losing anything, right? I'll be continuing your life just as you left it. It'll be as if nothing happened!" If you were the SkyPanther who was going to die within 24 hours, wouldn't you feel sh*tty? Even though your clone will carry out your life in the exact same way, something still feels wrong. That's because fundamentally, you're not your memories, your habits, your personality. You're the consciousness, the "I Am", that those things occur in, and you'll be losing that after your heart fails. Cheers!

"The most difficult thing about enlightenment is that it's too simple." --Sadhguru

You're being too dogmatic and in your own head. Stop it!

Nope, you're spot on. Thanks for pointing that out.

Of course I could say there is nothing but 1st person narcissistic spirituality, that my first-person phenomenal perspective is the only perspective I know to exist (solipsism), that the idea of other perspectives is just a baseless assumption, that I have no way of confirming the existence of other "I Am's"... But where's the fun in that!? I like to assume that there are other perspectives. To some degree, I even like to assume that I have free will. It makes the ride more entertaining, does it not? I'm digging the username, by the way.

The thing is, absolute truth is the only truth. Truth as in, the only thing that's timeless, eternal, and encompassing absolutely everything. It's always true. Any other truth, especially so-called truth in words or truth in the phenomenal world, is finite and therefore untrue. That may sound dogmatic on paper, but the Truth I'm talking about is beyond words, as I'm sure you've already heard before. Using Kant's terminology: phenomena are transient and therefore untrue; noumena is eternal and therefore true. This does not mean that I should stop eating, or stop weightlifting in order to gain muscle, or stop treating my gangrene-infested foot because I'm not absolutely sure if the medicine will work. If something works, it works! Cool! Keep doing it! However, that in no way makes anything in the phenomenal world absolutely true. All knowledge is belief, and no belief is true. We can predict with 99.9% accuracy that a red rubber ball will fall when we let go of it due to our ideas of gravity, but we can never be absolutely 100% certain that it will happen. As skeptical as this sounds, there is always a chance that it won't. Have you ever wondered what the substance of your sense perceptions are? I mean, not the stories you tell yourself about nerves and light and sound waves...but the actual subjective quality? When you really stop and think about it, you will begin to realize how little you know and how much you think you know.

Hi Stephanie, Thank you for being skeptical! Talking about enlightenment is some of the trickiest, most esoteric sh*t and it can be very easy to dismiss it or be skeptical. I encourage you to continue being skeptical. This is a very insightful thing to say. The short answer is no, the sort-of long answer is it can be. No: A barebones definition of enlightenment I use is the realization of your true nature. Your true nature is right here, right now, and it is absolutely perfect. Hope is imagining something better for the future. How can something perfect be better in the future? After realizing your true nature, hope is no longer necessary. However, if you're just starting out, you'll at least need some hope to motivate you to pursue enlightenment. It can be: Sometimes, people take enlightenment teachings that are only supposed to point to your true nature and spin them into a religion, i.e. a belief system. When that happens, "hoping for a better life" is usually included in the belief system. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that you may not be an organism with a brain that triggers thoughts and emotions? Here are some thought experiments to get you started along this line of inquiry: If I cut off your arm right now, would you still be you? Your cells apparently replace themselves every 10 years. Are you still you? You can't experience your apparent brain. How do you know it's there? Where does "Stephanie" fit in with the organism? Cheers!

Humor me for a second Henri, because there will be resistance if you read onward. Have you ever stopped to consider where this "fallen apart" world is? Where all the bad things are happening? Where is the "bad-ness"? Contemplate that for a second before reading on. You may notice that all the bad things in the world, the idea that the world is "fallen apart," is all in your head. Your mind created the idea that all the events happening in the world are somehow bad and need fixing, and because you are One with everything it is your duty to fix things and help others. Remove all these ideas, and things just are the way they are: absolutely perfect. Nothing ever needs to be fixed. I think it was Shakespeare who said, "There is no good or bad, only thinking makes it so." While your belief in service and fixing the world is certainly noble, you're going to have to see through it eventually if you're on the pathless path to enlightenment. All beliefs are fundamentally limiting, and your true nature is unlimited. That doesn't mean stop believing in this particular belief; it just means see through it. See it for what it is: an arbitrary belief; a bunch of random words strung together in a children's rulebook. Also, see if you can find any hidden agendas in your belief. The one I mentioned before about being validated as a saintly human being is likely in there somewhere. Look, I'm not saying that all that service/Yoga/heart chakra stuff is useless if you want enlightenment. Literally anything can be useful as pointers to enlightenment, because it is a pathless path. There are no true methods for realizing your true nature, because you're already it. However, your beliefs about service and all that other stuff being necessary is limiting your true nature and your true spontaneity. In my opinion, to say that Leo's way or anyone's way is just half the way is "low consciousness," (I really don't like that phrase but couldn't think of any others) and you may want to re-examine your claim. Cheers!

As nice as that sounds Henri, I disagree. By believing that you are One with everything, you're just as delusional as all the others out there. You still believe in a bunch of words, which are of the realm of duality. And the thing is, if you believe that we are all One, you are also likely to have a bunch of other hidden beliefs and agendas, and because you haven't transcended words yet, you likely won't be aware of those hidden beliefs and agendas. A perfect example of a hidden agenda is to treat others with love and respect so that they can reflect back to you how amazing of a person you are. Yet you wouldn't realize that if you don't know what you are (and what you are not). Agendas are egoic. They tell you that this moment is insufficient and something needs to be done about it. Very subtle. Can you see? Believing that you are One with everything means you should treat everyone with love and respect, because you are them. By having that "should," you're trying to convince yourself to act in a different way in order to fulfill the agenda of treating everyone with love and respect. In other words, you're trying to control the situation. Where does the illusion of control come from? Ego. Believing that we are one world family is just another paint color in the prison cell of beliefs that is ego. Become liberated from that prison cell, and you will feel no sense of obligation towards "others" because that "should" was seen through. By completely releasing the illusion of control, by being as spontaneous and agenda-free as a dog or a baby, people can't help but be affected in a positive way. Real liberation starts within you, and within you only. Change your perspective of the world, and you will change the world.