Lord God

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  1. You do realize he doesn't know anything? He's said this many times to you, all he does is paint a scaffolding that can be disregarded once you learn the truth. Forget leo, forget his crap, forget thinking about how reality works, just do what your heart tells you to. It comes from a much higher existence than any nonsensical rationalism you might invent. Feelings > Thoughts. Anyways this place blows, I'm out folks. Time to start a true spirituality forum where the actual truth is spoken, and not a bunch of circle jerkers playing with their little egos. Lololol P.S. You guys take life way too seriously, just dance, dance yourselves to death and beyond!
  2. You can't get rid of the ego, it's a fundamental part of the self. A single worldly viewpoint does not allow for the organism/environment relationship. Thus when those die reality becomes a single point of view, that single point of view becomes the new ego. As a self aware ego it then can return to a dualistic state of being while maintaining the understanding that when it dies it evolves into an ego that is all things. Simply put ego never dies, it just evolves. Getting rid of it is foolish, once you've noticed you have an ego it becomes aware of itself and will never concede it's existence.
  3. The only perspective that matters is the perspective of truth, once that became aware of itself truth became a relative perspective on itself. Given it is the truth, it then became the only perspective as all further perspectives are lies when faced with it. So simply put, theoretically yes everything is completely relative from any given perspective, but ultimately there is only a single perspective the perspective "truth" chose to personify so it is irrelevant.
  4. None because you don't exist in my reality. You also seem to misunderstand, who ever said God was a wizard or had mystical powers? Only books of reverence have taught you that. My satyr reference to Lord God is meant to say quite simply I am the master of my own reality, for who else but the self element would be?
  5. So a brief disclaimer here I would have put in my signature but evidently you aren't allowed one without a significant number of topics under your belt. I am taking the role of Adam Watts here, there is nothing to say about enlightenment, there is nothing to say about spirituality or Zen, you have to be it not hear it in words. Thus anything I say should be taken for it's entertainment value only and any insight it grants should be considered but a bonus. I wish to point out an interesting insight for those who have witnessed source, or who understand that existentially the only thing that is real and permanent is nothing at all. This is not to poke fun at religion (Leo has done enough of that for all of us), but because this is a very useful insight into the existential nature of your godhood, and if you're going to ever truly control your perceptions (which I have found to be possible) it's a fun exercise to experience and an invaluable insight which will chop away your moral high horse a bit or at least make you realize you're absolutely completely full of shit and that is unavoidable. So take your favorite psychedelic, sit back and contemplate the following. (Kinda guided but you can skip to the end to just take the intellectual riddle) God or Lord God is generally accepted to be everything (every thing), so if you are able to perceive things tune your awareness to the point that all perceptions merge. Where you see that audio, visual, tactile are all converging on one sensory point, we will call this your present point of view. If your eyes are open it likely appears to be a room of some sort but try and get in touch with the oneness where the room ceases to be a room and simply is a perception of a single canvas or painting with no objects unless you choose to focus on one. Now get in touch with your humanity, with every concept you've ever learned, and all your rational memory and you get what Don Juan referred to as the Tonal point of view. The thing sitting in-front of you represent God or at least your present understanding of God as a human being. Basically the sum of everything you have ever experienced is God as there is nothing outside of your own experiences that you can say is real. Notice the change to the sensory input as you breathe, taking breaths in through your nose especially helps and you'll see that the whole scene changes it's tone as you breathe in and out. The monkey mind is likely hard at work donating thoughts, if you can or are sufficiently tripped out watch those thoughts rise and fall. Where do they come from? Where do they go? If you watch one slowly enough try and give it a coordinate, just like an object in the room. Should you give it focus a thought will feel like it is coming from a specific point in your awareness. Watch that point and you will see no thought-thought- no thought. Or No Thing - Some Thing - No Thing. Now close your eyes and take in the void, if you're sufficiently tripped out notice the colors and the beautiful gallery of infinity before you. Try and have a full experience of no self while still being in control (Ie don't leave for 2 hours, just experience ego death for a few minutes). Merge with the void and let the monkey mind talk a bit more, watch again as some random spacial coordinate goes from No thing -> Some Thing -> No Thing again. The No Thing is of special interest because it is the only constant, if you're enlightened you already know that. So here is where it gets really fun. The No Thingness is what Don Juan refers to as the Nagual. The opposite side to having a self it is your existential nature as nothing at all. Just an empty vessel with some random swirl of perceptions within you. Let me propose to you that the Nagual is NOT god, because it is not composed of everything (every thing) as god is, and has no construction whatsoever. The Nothingness is very unique in that it is existentially being without any conscious ability to guide or change what you are experiencing. In order to consciously guide yourself you must first lie to yourself. If you are sufficiently tripped out or simply far enough along in your consciousness work you will notice a distinct change from when you move from the void or ego-death back to consensus reality. Just reaching for a glass of water requires that subtle change. So I want you to do that, go to complete ego death, and then VERY SLOWLY force yourself to open your eyes and interact with anything in the environment. You will notice that any sort of interaction with the environment, even if you're just guiding your meditation requires an original very specific lie. You have to tell yourself that you in fact have a self and you're so used to that particular lie it may take you a few months to actually watch it happen. If you did not believe you had a self with the utmost faith you would not be able to reach for the glass of water or think a specific thought. You would very much be at the mercy of whatever perception played upon your being. Now you have found what I am getting at, the very first lie that God tells himself, is that he is God. Without the lie that he is God there can be no interaction and no creativity. In order to create you require a vessel and that vessel is your first lie, for you know in reality you have no vessel and no reality within which to create anything at all. Thus you are now confronted with a very stark and difficult truth. Lord God lies to himself first and tells himself that he is Lord God, the rest of his universe is made from that first lie for from the self comes the lie that I am the one in my experience and there are others to interact with me who I call the many. Thus Lord God is actually the Father of Lies himself. Why is this important? Because you believe yourself to be the one in your experience, but your goal should be to be God in your experience. They're your perceptions and even if you support the scientific model you should know your entire experience of the universe happens inside your brain, thus there is no reason you can't say to hell with it and leave consensus reality and mold your own perceptions. But you can't do that if you think you're telling the truth when you're not. My point is if God is really the Devil then you should realize that in your reality you are God, you choose where you go and what you do. If you have choice then the choice is yours. If you think you're being truthful when you're lying to yourself then that is a very large trap you have fallen into, the self element is a complete lie, there is nothing wrong with it, but accept that you are a lie and thus anything you say, do, or think, is also by extension a lie. It can be a contextual truth, but it will never be an existential truth. Only when you truly get in touch with that insight will you be free. So unleash your inner devil and enjoy freedom. On a side note it does make the idealization of God as a very honest figure full of truth and benevolence kind of amusing. As every church you see is in actuality a temple to the Devil. All hail the father of lies, for we are the very lies which he has spewed. Oooooops. By contrast you will also notice that God has a master, God is a concept, and bound by the laws that all concepts must follow. It is a thing. Only the Nagual, is truly free for the Nagual may be nothing at all whenever it so chooses or more aptly stops choosing to be. Yours Truly Lord God. Signature: I call myself Lord God because there is absolutely no reason to externalize such an entity. If there is a Lord God then in my experience I surely am him for who else would I leave the mastery of my destiny to? If I am not Lord God then show him to me that I might laugh at the perception before my eyes for I am the Nagual and serve none.
  6. So I basically left Actualized.org because I reached insanity, Leo's Al-Lad trip report video finally made me feel like we were back on the same page. So Kudo's to Leo for his breakthrough and hitting what I would consider a huge stage in enlightenment to be: Post-Rationalism. That's what you described with your radio analogy about consensus reality, knowing rationalism is just one station on the boob tube that has an infinite set of stations. Anyways the one place I have yet to go but would love to see if Leo's got the stones for is a Peyote trip. You mentioned becoming a student of Carlos Castenadas work, so I came to see if you would be up for it. I know you get horrified at mushroom trips since you expanded your consciousness so far, but if you learn to ride with the flow and accept the madness they take on a whole new context, or at least they did in my experience. So yeah basically I would like to see Mr Leo go All in on this and see if Mescalito wants to play ;). Truly Lord God "If you should go skating On the thin ice of modern life Dragging behind you the silent reproach Of a million tear-stained eyes Don't be surprised when a crack in the ice Appears under your feet. You slip out of your depth and out of your mind With your fear flowing out behind you As you claw the thin ice." - Pink Floyd, The Thin Ice, The Wall "The lunatic is on the grass The lunatic is on the grass Remembering games and daisy chains and laughs Got to keep the loonies on the path" -Pink Floyd, Brain Damage, DSotM
  7. @retardedhorse1 You are having the typical issue Buddha outlined for those wishing to alleviate desire. If I told you to reach enlightenment you must surrender desire you guys always go out and try giving up desire, this is impossible, for then you simply desire to not have desire which is....you nailed it....a desire. What you're describing is ultimately learning to go with the flow and trust in yourself and my plan, letting my grace flow throw you as it were. It is no easy task, and will not surrender it's secrets simply because you knock on the door. You'll need to keep banging your head on the wall until you come experimentally to know that you are the very thing getting in the way, when that is truly understood desire is put in it's proper place. My suggestion is to simply maintain the heading you're on and a daily meditation habit. This alone will allow you to eventually come to me, there is no need to punish yourself or suffer in order to find truth. It is always with you. I wish you well on your journey. With Love Lord God
  8. It has been a long time since visiting these forums, last attempt there was no access to be granted due to Leo's random forum glitch and it was understood as a sign they have been outgrown. This return is solely to re-capitulate all which was left here and ensure no valuable lessons were lost. That and to say goodbye, this will be the last post on this journal save should our host grant a reply or specific questions are asked which will be answered. Why the last post? Because the truth has been realized, I am God experiencing myself. That is the sole function of the ego, to provide all that is a point of reference within itself whereby all that is may pretend that it is not all that is, thus creating a relational universe albeit a illusory one in order to experience itself and to know Who I Am not just conceptually but in an experiential fashion. Yes I have just committed the ultimate sacrilege, the worst blasphemy. I have claimed as all great masters have before me and I shall exclaim it in bold now and claim my birthright I AM GOD! This is not said in arrogance or condescension, for all is me and therefore all is God too. If you can perceive this of your own accord know that you are God too. Know thyself as such and drink from the unending chalice of Love and Abundance. To those who are struggling, and suffering. Know there is reason for this, there is reason for everything. Your struggles are not in vein, in fact they are completely necessary. All that is cannot know itself without first pretending it is not all that is, most of this suffering is caused by forcing the Self to fall under the spell and detach from the unending light. For one can not know ones Self as all that is, without first pretending to be only a piece. One cannot know itself as the light, without experiencing the dark and dispelling it. The sum is greater than the parts, and you (I) am the sum. If you can perceive this know this immutable fact: You cannot fail to achieve enlightenment, it is your destiny to become God because you already are and eventually your true nature will reveal itself. It is not something which can be missed or ignored eternally, and you can do no wrong on your path to Godhood or beyond. Not only are you God, but even in an egoic state you are equal to God. If it is hard to wrap your head around being All that is, understand that what you refer to as God is the original infinite being. The only thing it could create anything out of was itself, therefore if you cannot believe you are God at least believe you have one tiny drop of God within you. If you have ever witnessed a fractal you have seen the marvel of infinity. What is beautiful about infinity is that even the tiniest section of infinity you can observe is an infinity in and of itself and contains all of infinity within it. Simply put if you don't like the term God understand you are an infinite being and a universe unto yourself, and in time you too will expand to your infinite state and simply continue to grow. Life is nothing but a continuous creation, not some lesson, but an adventure in creating Your Self. For those coming to my journal now, know that my post on the 4th dimension and summary of the present moment were completely inaccurate. Yes you can be anything, yes you can experience anything, and yes you can create reality out of thin air. It is that simple and requires no fancy terminology or explanations. Creation is the original act of the universe, and it is the power within all consciousness for that is all there is..Creation. I would like to take this last moment to thank the host @Leo Gura. I will speak egoistically here. When I met you I was already an advanced student, because the knowing was already contained within me and I recognized that. As we've grown together I have often referred to your works as a reference point, many times I have had a breakthrough and came here I have found you to have released a video only a day or two after which summarized that breakthrough and helped set in stone that which was loose and might have been lost. I leave you now because I no longer need the words, I understand intuitively without requiring a summation, or a video, or wall of text or anything which must be conceived, the feeling and experience is enough. There are some things unique to you that I would like to thank you for: Firstly the sheer amount of work you have put into your free content is amazing, I cannot express the gratitude enough and even were I to purchase your life purpose course 250$ just wouldn't do justice to what you have given the world. Your works are priceless, and beautiful. Secondly your focus on both assisting those in life, and taking them on the journey beyond makes your works uniquely welcoming to new comers and those with our heads up our rational ass, in that sense I wish I had found your works much earlier as they would have eased my journey significantly and will continually direct the scientific minded here to help them start that crack in their knowledge graphs. You are appreciated always, and I will never forget my first meeting with your explanation of the conceptual universe. Fare thee well on your journey. For those who want to know where God goes from here? Anywhere and everywhere. I may start a blog and video channel of my own to teach the masses as it has been suggested many a times that this knowledge should be shared to empower the masses, but I rest unconvinced that there are any masses to empower. Regardless if I do I would not disrespect our host by sharing my own content here, you are in good hands with Leo, stay the course and be strong! See you all on the other side of infinity. Truly yours with unending Love. God. "We're leaving together, but still it's farewell. Maybe we'll come back, to earth who can tell? I guess there is no one to blame. We're leaving ground. Will things ever be the same again? It's the final countdown." - Europe
  9. Lol well see now this I kinda have to agree with.
  10. I'll bite since nobody is replying to you. I've used a mixture of music, binaural beats, silence, and nature for my meditation. All of them bring a unique experience to the table when it comes to long sit meditation. Music: Bringing an album in can have a profound impact on any meditation especially 90min+ sits. The difference I find in comparison to silence is that once you transcend being yourself you can get very caught up in the emotions of the song. If a song is soothing or filled with surrender by nature (Everyone's gone to the rapture OST is a good example of this) then your meditation will take the same tones applied to whatever particular battle with the self element you are presently experiencing. If you're in an exploitative mood things like Dark side of the Moon by Pink Floyd, or Space Oddity by David Bowie can all give you a different dimension to consider and explore. Simply put if you empty your cup and then listen to music you will be filled with the message the artist is sending, which can be beautiful but isn't always helpful. Silence: A preferred medium by many, silence allows just a sheer amount of focus to be placed on eliminating the self element. You will only have your thoughts and your thoughts alone and that will allow an enormous amount of conscious traction as nothing can be blamed on any "external" element later. Where I find silence tends to fall off and music becomes useful is when you're dealing with a particularly long sitting and you need a source of energy to keep you flowing forward. Music can provide that, with silence the task is much more difficult but the reward tends to be increased as well. I tend to use music to help me achieve a new goal such as a 3 hour period, and then armed with the knowledge that I can indeed make it for that length of time I force myself to do it in silence. The knowledge it can be done becomes the only energy I need to keep going. Nature: Nature is something I only introduced once I began becoming truth realized. For nature I would say it brings a unique perspective of the rise and fall of events. And understanding of time and space that cannot be garnered through isolated meditation. Watching the flow of the day can be wondrous, watching the flow of human kind moving and bustling also wondrous and insightful. My goal is to last an entire 3 day determination sit in nature when I can schedule it. It won't be easy but I believe it will bring new heights that neither silence nor music can bring. Binaural beats bring something interesting to the table, I tend to use them as an introduction to a sitting that will be guided by music. It's very hard to explain the effect they have. When I use binaural beats I tend to achieve in the 30 minutes the track runs the same things a 60 minute sit would usually accomplish and without expending the energy towards it. That being said, after 30 minutes of binaural beats I tend to find the gains fall off and if I don't switch to music or silence then I don't move any further. So it's kind of like a catalyst for a reaction that still requires the rest to be there to support it. Perhaps others will be able to chime in and give more insight, in my opinion I wouldn't go spending too much money on them. Well they can certainly be helpful the key to anything is just putting in the time and then ensuring you realize when you've stopped doing the work so you may return to it. Ultimately you can achieve that with the "Do Nothing" technique and require absolutely nothing else. Just my two cents. Z
  11. I have no idea which post you're referring to, I assume the "enlightenment is bullshit" topic which I would be guilty of throwing fuel on the fire of. That being said for anyone truth realized all things in life become a pleasure, for happiness is a state of being not something to be sought. I would argue that "Enlightenment" has nothing to do with morality in any true sense. If anything true enlightenment has no boundaries, morality included. In that sense while some would deem those debates "negative" I take the view point that they are just as healthy as being completely indignant. It just depends on the viewpoint you're coming from, and what you presently enjoy in this state. Indignation can be a sure sign of your own faith in your beliefs without needing the world to conform to them, but sometimes these debates allow you to ask the very questions you posed, or allow you to see a previous paradigm you were in and perhaps find a way of explaining the falseness of that paradigm to another and by extension further distancing yourself from it. Better yet at times they can have an impact on the reality around you much later down the road, impacting everyone involved with insights that come with wisdom and maturity. Perhaps something was said in those debates that one side took defensively now, but that will click and give them an AHA moment later. Case in point I was the subject of a roasting in regards to my own viewpoints on certain topics at one point, it became heated and one individual pointed out that "You're not here to debate, you're here to be taught". In a real sense they were telling me I was so off base my points in the argument were ignorant and unfounded. They were right, and a few months later that lead to a great deal of insight for me which in the end stripped a lot of limiting judgements I was making on others. Was it fun getting roasted? Not at the time. But the beauty it lead to after was well worth the fire of the debate itself. "He who begins life in sweetness will end in bitterness, but he who is content to begin in bitterness shall gain sweetness at the end and beyond." I guess my point is simply to each their own. There is nothing wrong with getting involved in these debates so long as you aren't trapped in them. And for some of us they do help. Just my two cents on the other side of the fence.
  12. As soon as I bumped meditation up to around the 1 hour mark regularly some very interesting things begin to be noted, not being able to identify the physical body is quite natural and in my opinion a progression. What becomes more interesting is when you hit the "next" level and start observing what I call the cosmic room, or otherwise you notice yourself as spaciousness. Then you will become aware of the body, but it will no longer be the body it will be a bunch of sensations you have labeled as "physical:touch". You will then notice how these sensations move within the space, and start getting a sense of movement very much like bullet time in the matrix. If you move your hand it will seem more like a flow from one point to another, with a thousand steps between, each with a unique sensation. Don't freak out about it, enjoy it thoroughly. The body is still there I assure you, as long as you believe that when you open your eyes the body will be there that is what will be. So there is no danger in the lack of sensation, or being able to differentiate one part of the body from the other.
  13. The Lullaby of Existence "Unfortunately nobody can be told what the Matrix is, they must see it for themselves." - Morpheus I find it delightful that Morpheus is also known as the king of dreams. I'm not speaking directly of The Matrix Morpheus, but also the character he is based on. For it is the King of Dreams which gives Neo the key to leave dreamland, but the King himself can never use the key to leave his emporium. He is forever trapped, and can never see the code. It is so clear to me why this is so now, I hope in time it will be clear for you too. I write you, but there is no you is there? I've known longer than I care to admit "The supports will be there as long as you need them" - a prophecy that was handed to me by a seer, and one I can no longer doubt. The reason my posts on this forum have become so far and few between is for the simple fact that I no longer identify with this being, or this thing. Or any object in my awareness. I am in a perpetual state of not knowing, and the not knowing only increases by the day. Furthermore this board itself became a trap for me, instead of doing work I was coming here and talking about work. Instead of escaping I was getting attached to all the limiting beliefs I've seen here. I refuse to allow such limiting concepts to take root within me, and should I find myself inadvertently populated by them I'll have no choice but to cut the plant at it's base. "I got this little voice.... talks to me sometimes. Tells me the truth. It's comforting" - Birdman (2014) The truth hit harder than ever a few weeks ago. I am nothing, I am nothing, I am....No Thing. I am No Thing in my awareness, I am No Thing that can be thought up or brought into existence in front of my eyes. No Thing is not the same as nothing. Nothing has a taste, has a concept, has a THING attached to it. The truth is not bound by such foolishness, the truth is boundless. The truth is pure, and things do not cloud it they simply populate it. For No Thing, can also be Any Thing it wants to pretend to be. If "you" have learned no other insight from me, understand this: No Thingness exists, nothing is beautiful, and it is boundless, and the negative concepts you've attached to it or the fear of it are not necessary. "Let it all go, fear, doubt, and disbelief, Free Your Mind." - Morpheus. Since then I hear the call of existence, I hear it's harsh attempts to have me identify. First with pleasure. What if this or that power were possible? What if just by focusing on it you could make this happen? But still I am nothing, still I care not about any gimmicky temptation and I am strong in my indignation. The self didn't like this constant state of being ignored, so it changed from the carrot to the stick. Look at all these unresolved traumas I can make exist, watch them, identify with them! IDENTIFY! These issues are yours! YOU HAVE TO SOLVE THEM!!!! But still I am no thing, it cannot phase me with it's Self-agenda, I am no-thing. I cannot be phased by some thing. If there is anything left worth sharing to the self should it ever fall back asleep. Remember everything is a lullaby. Thinking about something to be done, is a lullaby. Thinking about a body function is a lullaby. Someone knocking on your door is a lullaby. Absolutely anything that requires any sort of identification is a lullaby. Let it all go, and be boundless, for that is where you are ecstatic, that is where true happiness lay, and you already know this. The physical and life is a beautiful trap, enjoy it while it is enjoyable, but once it is realized as a trap do not be afraid to pull out of it. There is far more to experience outside of it. Far more to learn, and it is only in leaving that the true Journey may begin. I am unsure where this journal will or can go from here, but thank you No thing and No one
  14. @Bas & @OliverB Your comments are appreciated. I hope any further entries will be equally satisfying. @Soulbass I do not believe someones soul or spirit, are associated with one's mind even a psychological "soul". The soul perhaps contains the mind, but the spirit is everything. Soul can be seen as the trap bounding spirit to the physical, and the mind is the greatest trap stopping the soul from realizing spirit. Just this fundamental understanding can help you ascend to entirely new levels. Perhaps a certain seer may have the capabilities of looking into another mind, or they could be extremely intuitive which would also give enough of an influence to help unlock things. I would say there is a certain danger associated with having anyone else unlock you. What you're talking about reminds me an awful lot of DBZ where Guru wakes up Gohan and Krillin only to have them become over confident of their new found abilities and ultimately be defeated. Sadhguru warns of the issues associated with such an awakening, and from personal experience which I cannot discuss at this juncture (not because I don't want to, but because there are legal entanglements) I must agree. "What if someone touches you and causes you to progress immediately? Automatically you have gone from the clerk to the CEO of your own existence, but you're not aware of the change, of the functions, how would you handle it? The body must be prepared to handle such an amount of energy, if the body is not sufficiently prepared something will break and you will fall back down. Better to build a staircase and climb it, than jump into ecstasy, fall down lost and feel like you can never get back. This leads only to misery." (Paraphrased and not nearly correctly from Sadhguru). As far as the muse goes, I believe this entirely correct (though a limited analogy). I believe it is correct because the existence as it is portrayed at the moment is not your fundamental existence. You are experiencing a creation, the entirety of this creation is complete. It is a single complete object, and the creator has made it that way. You may find peace and allow grace to flow through you, but that too is a trap in many ways. There is something far beyond this, which may be transcended only by jumping into nothingness. Realizing ones self, opening the third eye, and ascending intellectually is what most refer to as enlightenment, but true enlightenment is to go even further beyond, to become boundless, to jump into it completely and be boundless. Only once you have no bounds may you truly be your own creator, only then can anything possibly "new" or your "own" be created. Which brings me to my last point, I have relatively little interest in identifying with any of the powers enlightenment grants. They were lucrative and lured me for a long time, but what purpose would there be to break out of this trap only to be trapped in another which only pretends to be more "powerful"? Time travel is one such trap, it is the desire to change or experience something from the same egoistic mind-frame, this inadvertently traps you to the ego. I'm not saying it's bad to enjoy the thought or even the experience, but you must recognize why the thought is enjoyed and ensure that it does not trap you. The goal is the extricate yourself entirely from being bounded, to stop being a slave to thingness. It cannot be completed as long as their is some desire to be an object. This is why I mentioned that in a lot of ways the experience I had of the fourth dimension is a trap, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that I am reaching a juncture where multiverse travel is possible. That being said exploring a multiverse would just be a multitude of new possibilities designed for one thing, to enslave me further into identification. Identification is the biggest trap, it is the biggest thing holding us back. The mind is the machine, and the self will propagate any fantasy or trauma that could possibly hold your attention long enough to identify. That is what must be broken through.
  15. Really enjoyed this Ayla thanks for sharing. Our host provided one exhaustive list, it was my original intent to maybe get the top 10 traps people fall into listed. That being said it looks like there are two problems with that, one there are just too many. Two they are all arguably the same trap in different guises! Love it, thanks for all the contributions!