ValiantSalvatore

@S33K3R I appreciate the advice. I can understand what you mean that I watch my thoughts and the content of my thoughts. For me it is more of an emotional component that I am unable to reconcile. I am also doing a mindfulness pratice it helps a lot both with thoughts and emotions. For me thoughts that put me down are. Why do people treat me this way ? Or why are people so toxic and do not work on themselves, or sublte discrimination, why is the world so fucked , why does nobody care ? Why do I care etc. It helps a lot to dissociate my self from these thoughts with a mindfulness pratice.

@John Lula @Just Do Nothing This is interesting. Thanks! I appreciate it. I am going to my first retreat this year in a zen monastery looking forward !

@Just Do Nothing I know what you mean it is just that the depression or sadness is so strong I can't bear it sometimes and I am praticing mindfulness for about 3 years now. I know cognitively and experientially that accepting what ever arises now is the best process to digest these feelings, regardless if it is happiness or sadness, anger, fear, worry, hatred, joy etc. I've read the book "The Art of Happiness" a couple of years ago when I started self-actualizing since buddhism interested me and was fasciniting for me as a teen. I do not remember the content I bought a couple of books on happiness from Leo's book list and read them all, I have a scientific / socital perspective on how to achieve external happiness, which still contributes to happiness and also the "socital" internal part about happiness which connects with spirituallity. I hate chasing highs and lows or not hate it is something that never fullfilled me and left me empty, so I am not chasing something like that at all. I have subtle addictions like the internet, music and the internet and music... I stopped gaming and watching tv and I stopped using social media since I was 16 because we read an article about how people steadily compare themselves when they use social media and that it is bad for one's health in english class. I use it sparsly FB, WhatsApp and I do not know what else counts as social media. I browse this forum from time to time ( spiral dynamics is very intriguing that is why I am here now often) and I use youtube and browse Quora that is about it. I would really like to change my nutrition, to see if that is the cause for depression or if it is really.. something which I can't do anything about because of chemical imbalances or some other thing. I can't really deal with pressure in uni because I feel like I belong to nowhere and I am steadily project to sterotypes and subtle forms of discrimination which drive me sucidal, people ascribe all kinds of ideas on to me that I began to question my identity since I was little any association with ones skin color or ethnic background is just stupid but hard to get rid off, especially when you do not pratice mindfulness or are NOT ! subject to any kind of discrimination, I do not like any kind of group associatve thinking and when you are mixed people try to claim you for both sides, so you move into a worldcentric perspective quite quickly, since you see the stupidity of associating yourself with your nationality and how much pain and struggle it causes to associate oneself with one nationallity or two it is simply a concept with content... , race is the same. I can't stand being and working in groups over 4 or 5 people they have so many unconscious assumptions and of course I could be the one who has them I am pondering this so often, yet people do not notice it when they go unconscious IT IS THE UNCONSCIOUS ! Mindfulness made me aware of a lot of bullshit that is inside of me and if I compulsively think about these things it is highly likely that other people think similar and I am even praticing mindfulness and 99.9% of the people are not, it is rare to meet someone who treats me with prejudice" and yes obviously there are people who are more aware and did not pratice mindfulness. I am so aware of facial gestures and gestures it drives me nuts how much people display what they are thinking simply by doing small things and that these patterns repeat themselves with people who are holding similar beliefs let's say racist or prejudice about people. It is ridiculous. I talked to a zen master once and he gave me the advice to build a structure that is what I want to do, yet I have difficulties building one, since my enviroment is not in favour of me enabling me to take care of my emotional needs of just being with some people and in general people here are just either way people from rural areas or stereotypical "foreigners". Sure, there are some who are ok, but somehow I feel I belong nowhere I can connect I see the way they think or act, but I never experienced it like them since people treat me differently. I am either treated as an individual which is fine or as someone who belongs to a group / ethnicity and these two notions mix themselves up. The people I can relate the most to are people who traveled or are mixed and saw some other cultures or who are extremely open-minded. They mostly treat my human ( green people ) , yet, potentially yellow people I meet are the most pleasant to deal with the amount of non-judgementalness is still insane. When green feels threatend they tend to attack you personally even if they know the things that they are thinking are subjective and also due to conditioning. There are so many thoughts about my past that I do not know what to do with them besides socializing and forgetting myself and feeling not that good afterwards or praticing mindfulness, journaling or calling a friend, lying in bed listening to eckhart tolle to the 1000end times. I have a good idea what spirituallity is about and listened to a lot of talks and audiobooks from jiddu krishnamurti, allan watts, shinzen young, "ken wilber", and a couple of others that I highly want to focus more on practice, reading won't help as long as I do not pratice, yet I have difficulties putting things into action, since I am plagued by depression and thoughts about the past the habit part is making progress. It is difficult for me to constantly accept thoughts let go or label the typ of sensory experience and let it be. Of course I can do it but not 24/h a day. My whole upbrining is a disaster ( from a mental level and I feel emotionally neglected and disjointed from most people) from my perspective it does not make sense to blame other people but , I can even say it does make sense since it releases some anti-stress hormone. But, that is like smoking a cigarette a short buzz and you feel good. I do drop in mindfulness into the day but it is not that structured at the moment I can do it now with household activities constantly, at least the practice not any state. I just would love to transcend and be that feeling of transcendence even when I imagine it is priceless, yet I also want to live in this world and therefore I am set out to suffer. But, right now I want to build that foundation /structure / system ! I would love to receive some exercise that one can do to relieve / prevent depression or some tips on nutrition, I am also ready to try anti-depressents, yet I can't tell it is so odd, I prefer not to and I am scared that during the time the anti-depresent first starts to work, in these initial phases (4-6 weeks), that I will not be able to handle uni and loose a semester. I am not really willing to do that since I wasted time already I'd rather try something alternative then to rely on some cruch. But, I am willing to do it if that does not work.

This is also good:

Weird german alternative hip-hop the imagery explains everything (Green / Yellow~ish)

@DeannaDevil I can elaborate a bit on that. For instance at orange most people regard themselves as individuals and many people including myself would rather regard themselves as individuals regardless of their background. Instead of being associated to a group and be downtrodden by sterotypes. Etc. a lot of orange/green type humour is about culture, ethnicity and their peculiarities imo. What I perceive you most likely fear is that when you become green that all you do is care for people and entrench yourself in ideologies that activists preach in order to build a better society, more wellbeing or free the animals, protest against oppressive goverments or movements etc and in order to be green you have to be like those people. That sounds like a healthy green, sounds more like you would embody your ideal of how things should be in the world and your life, instead of falling prey to group think, ideological people. I would recommend that if you know people who are ideological , yet good hearted and green. That you spend some time with them and see all of their faulty beliefs and how much pride and ego / narcism they develop through feeling better since their values or worldview is superior to others and that they do not acknowledge that, but let you subtely know that they are better. At the same time you can see how compassionate people are who create these ideologies and that they really care about other people, animals, plants etc and their reasoning behind why their ideologies / ideals are so important to them and you can contemplate that viewpoint and be detachted from the ideals themselves and see what you want to install or not This is basically where I am at to a degree since I resent competition it triggers me sometimes badly that I just get very angry to not live up to my ideals / standards that I just rather work together with people in friendly communality or revert back to a more aggresive form of myself or work alone completely ( that is what I do most of the time) . I still get shit done and I am working on my productivity. Yet, this is mostly "orange" work and needs orange tactics or some larger system which integrates this slowly somehow imo. To give a better example the best guy in our major is quite green and he is by far the most productive and efficient person since he is social and takes care of his needs and also receives a lot of help from green people with whom he built a connection with and people at green love ! to help. Or they are extremely fine with it. Orange tends to weigh pros and cons, green does to , but is more relative about it. As long as there is time for themselves they can sacrifice the time that they have and spend it on a friend who needs his/her help as long as there is a good bond between the two of you. Also, the bond does not need to depend on the person being in the closest of circles like a blue friendship would be like, it is more of a apprecation of the connection of the two of you made and the persona that you wear/have. Another example is one of my best friends he is the "artist" type, went to the U.S (Las Vegas) to pursue his career in stand-up comedy and acting he also plays in a band, yet even if he is smart his best friend has a masters in economics (his best friends gf has a master in electrical engineering and they are both green left people) to give some credit. He never finished his education and had trouble finding a regular job, deadbeat sounds a bit rough lol. But, you could call him that to a degree he is very idealistic some might say megalomaniac, a bit like Russell Brand but not that successful lol. So, even though he is green he is not successful but extremely creative without taking any substances at all, besides alcohol and even that rarely. He has a regular job and always seems to find something which potentially makes him fulfill his dreams/ambitions on a monetary basis. Green feels like the most creative stage for me. You can let loose and show vulnerability in many aspects or facets of your life like speaking or holding a presentation, writing, interaction between people becomes extremely playful and status and recognizing the other persons intelligence or any sort of "political/socital game" like that is secondary. It feels more emotionally expressive and creative you can sing, dance and laugh with people and forget your persona or not feel threatend around green people that they will hurt your ego or that you neccesary have to please them since you are out for fun and you have to provide them with knowledge, interesting facts, news about your accomplishments. You will also feel if you are a more sensitive type depressed by the events that are occuring all over the world, terrorism, donald trump, refugess, enviromental destruciton or catastrophes, politics in general and see it more clearly for what it is and why progress is important, your capabillities in self-expression will rise tremendously in that way creativity increases enormously, also the ability to self-actualize (Abraham Maslows hierachy of needs) becomes stronger many green people I know like to draw, play an instrument or have played or learn languages and travel to expierence different cultures and not to increase their skills or earn some money, gain knowledge, so the drive to do things for itself increases and the satisfaction that comes from doing it. Sometimes green can be extremely nasty and depict you as the shittiest human being you can be since at green I feel like you can truly see a persons personality even if they hide it behind a mask, a lot of it oozes out. It is amazing that you can just be with a person and share your lives and enjoy a good time / plan activities that does not focus soley on the activity or your agenda of having fun. The agenda moves more to convincing the other person to finally (f-ing) realize that both of you have are going to have a great time, since there is an activity which you both enjoy and the bond of your friendship / relationships is in the foreground and not the agenda of pleasuring the other person or to be pleasured be the other person. It does not sound like you are demonizing these stage, but are considering the repercussions of how it will play out for you on a individual level when you move towards this stage. I hope this moves things into perspective. One thing green can do when it is ideological is to team up with red people I do not know why and it can be scary. Stay away from them or learn and observe lol.

@Zweistein I like the picture it would be nice if people could have the same equality of outcome and equality of chance. Yet, this can only be an ideal imo. I would love to see a goverment which builds the neccesary structure to increase peoples overall capabillities and also educating the new generation for instance about parenting, so they can provide the best outcome for children and how to optimally raise their childrens talents and predispostions. Yet, I do not think that it is possible to the degree people would love to want it. I like this from Alan Watts without Chaos their would not be order, without inequality we would not know what equality is, same goes for justice, but we could provide a structure which strives to combine both, so maybe at one point these concept's would stop existing since they have been integrated to such a degree, that there is not a polarizing force anymore. I don't know why there are only boys on the picture, I think marketing or pictures / memes nowadays are quite egalitarian. imo

Thanks you can also thank my friend. She brought that up. I never thought of it that it could be a privileg, it this is something I am contemplating currently the concept of privileg. (since 2 days or so). I know what you mean with woman getting shunned for acting contrary to their socially imprinted role/behaviour. I also tend to sit sometimes like the crossed legged position women tend to do. https://www.quora.com/What-are-your-thoughts-on-men-sitting-with-their-legs-crossed I listened to some JP video where he talked about body language and that he uses it for comfort as far as I remember and that it is better to use this position sometimes since it makes you smaller ? It can be comfortable.. but not always lol. In China people also sat liked that so, that was the first time I noticed it, it did look kind of elegant, sometimes arrogant, but not always. I never saw it in the EU besides when I went to uni and my profs. start sitting like it so for me it is the "liberal intellectual" way of sitting approriately.

Adapting to the group or people around me is what I have and had to do my entire life there was not a real peer group for me and when it was it mostly consisted either way of only germans and I was the only "foreigner" (born and raised in germany) or only "foreigners" from different country with one german. I tend to not criticize people if they "seem" not as awake as I am or as other people, I mostly notice how deeply unconscious I am and they are and try to pull myself out of there and pratice mindfulness while unconscious attacks for example happen against my ego. I just get mad when I see stage blue creating hierachies again and pulling people down to their level of consciousness, so they can talk shit about other countries and ethnicities and talk about people and people and people. ( Imagine an elderly blue couple) Also, the person I asked is quite a deep thinker but she does not care really and would be indifferent about it. I like to ask her since she is the person who likes ideologies and new ideas in the social relam that fit her values or could potentially improve some aspects of her life. She can be brutally honest that's why I ask her. It is good to see for me where I am trapped in my socially conditioned thinking and at the sametime what new ideologies are at the forefront of "leftist-green" (political green here / liberal green ) people. Yeah, if read a bit about projection and I like cognitive distorting biases, when I read one I contemplate them for at least a week or so. I can see what you mean, that you are acting weird around people of color because people from different backgrounds behave differently ( I am half black half white and never experienced black culture besides on tv I AM SO WHITE that's what black people tell me when I meet them) , most likely you just become like you said self-conscious because you want to treat all people equally and be a good person and then become hyper-aware of not acting in a manner that could be considered racist and you want to be seen as a good person. I can imagine you sitting there completely neutral and acting like a total spaz would love to see that, and you keep thinking and interpreting thinking and interpreting every slightest move that is made and project that onto yourself and the situation. And then nobody believes anything you said or anything you observed when your self-consciouness stops, since the people who where present experienced the situation differently. I don't know what kind of shadow work you do or if you do it, yet mindfulness and identifying with my shadow side has helped my quite well with this, till now. To overcome self-defeating thoughts in public settings. Still restaurants drive me nuts, I become self-conscious about how people perceive me since I do not want to look like an idiot and I dislike politness, even though I am fantastically great at it. ( sad polite passive-aggression). I can see what you mean with divine feminine in the esoteric sense. I never thought about it that way more of the qualities only inside people and nature but not the whole "mother of nature / evolution". When yellow truly integrates divine feminin and masculin , I am looking forward to how both of these are manifested in the external relam. I've listend to the evolution of the stages from ken wilber(from horde cultural to industrial),did you read any books about history or are there any you can recommend ? Why did the Amish do ? lol The analogy of giving birth to the feminin will never go out of my head. I have the quote of Alan Watts hanging in my room, so I will quote it: We do not "come into" this world; we come out of it as leaves from a tree. As the ocean "waves" the universe "peoples". Every individual is an expresion of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe. This fact is rarely, if ever, experienced by most individuals. Even those who know it to be true in theory do not sense or feel it, but continue to be aware of themselves as isolated "egos" inside bags of skin. I also like this one: "It must be obvious... that there is a contradiction in wanting to be perfectly secure in a universe whose very nature is momentariness and fluidity" That is why I would like to pratice yoga and experience it for myself what masculin and feminin is and where these concepts originated from. I hope you have been to china or an other asian country the dynamics of people who live there is so different I love it, I bet you can contemplate these concepts perfectly in the chaos of the "eastern" lifestyle / infrastructure / social dynamic.

@TomDashingPornstar In case muslim girl means that she is part of the religion of islam( i know a tiny bit about the islam). Then rarely do I see it, yet many modern families which come from regions where the islam is present are more open and tolerant of different cultures and ethnicities, especially people who are younger. So, they embrace the western culture and materalism, especially materalism. Sometimes it is the other way around a western girl adopting the religion of her partner. So, you will see sometimes western girls wearing a headscarf or even a burka. I never saw a western girl with a burka in my region in germany, but one with a headscarf. I worked together with a turkish girl in uni who wears a headscarf and she was quite modern despite her parents suggesting her marriage partner ( most likely I don't know 100%) she once said she would never choose a partner which she does not like and that her parents are completely okay with that she seems quite liberal and open-minded, a very kind person. But, as an outsider I never know what goes on inside the family, I knew some guys who are just like I bang german girls and marry a in this case turkish girl. And they would laugh and one really meant it during that time. Now he is going to have a child with a german girl, since he was more money oriented and did not really care that much about ethnicity. So, yes people do date outside their religion, yet followers of the religion tend to stay in their circles. Depends on how serious they take it.

Thanks for elaborating ! , I am thinking about social patterns a lot (spiral dynamics helps enormously) and this is pretty much what triggers me when I am around green women/people and that I have to be especially careful what I say otherwise I am being demonized for being a patriach a peasent or an unaware idiot (which is partially true) . Also, body language is quite interesting at green they seem to get triggered when a man takes in a position which displays dominance for instance: I asked a third wave /fourth wave feminist what she thinks about this posture since she mentioned manspreading to me which seemed absurd to me first. She said that she does not like it and that men unconsciously display dominance, which I tend to agree, yet it is also a position of comfort and people can misinterpret the intentions behind why someone choose to sit likes this, without considering the situation at all. Long story short for me personally it can be both and sometimes it is neccesary to sit like this when you are discussing something and you have to display dominance in order to be taken seriously. Most men tend to be unaware and want to display dominance/confidence or simply want to have a good argument / debate and use this position. Mostly as a means to be respected imo. To give an example to this my aunt is lesbian and quite green/orange(more green), when she visited me on my birthday. We sat outside in the garden and I was leaning back in my chair trying to find space, since I am quite tall and chairs annoy me, since they are mostly small and I feel confined by the armrests. So, I adjust my body like in the picture above to sit in a comfortable position and suddenly. She started to feel uncomfortable and potentially opressed and crossed her arms around her torso, while her partner (they are married) seemed to deal with it in an more orange manner, deal with it that is how it is ( disragarding emotions). I felt confined not dominant not confident in the ordinary conception, yet I was abiding in a medicore deep feeling of imperturbability. I did not ask, yet the body language showed that she felt extremely uncomfortable and somehow opressed / dominated, so I stopped after she did not feel any better when I switchted to a different position. What I am alluding here to with this story is the "divine" principle of the masculin (and feminin) I like david deida who talks about masculin and feminin energies and since I tapped into green/yellow, especially yellow. I can not now only express my emotions and feel like shit when , I see any sort of opression / marginalization regardless of race, color ,sex and creed and in general feel more loving and playful. Yet, I can embody it partially the feminim aspects of the divine feminin. I can laugh dance and be playful and I feel full, full of love that I want to share and spread that love instead of emptying myself and becoming radically free. Although this is restricted I do tap into to this weekly almost, for a duration of 2-4h. Where these feelings spike up sporadically and spontaneously. It feels like the social construct of what masculin and feminin is can not only be looked upon (like in green) , yet their energetic / emotional quality / component is neither being denied / denigrated or reperssed and instead integrated. At the sametime I also feel more manly and more at home in my body energy wise most likely because of meditation and potentially the yellow stage, since according to what I remember and listend to / read (online) is that at yellow both of these qualities of the divine masculin and feminin are being integrated and one has the capacity to access them ? To me it seems more to that the power structures have been uncovered at stage green, like different dynamics of how people are being "systematically opressed" for instance through modern sexism or benevolent sexism / structural racism. To further increase my knowledge in this area and unashamedly repating somethings I wrote down. A structural handicap / disadvantage is the perpetuation of the prevailing priviliges of a group to protect the groups priviliages by the means of spreading / propagating ideologies and prejeduices about a group which is at a disadvantage. For instance modern sexism simply is the denial and refusal of undertakings that reduce inequality. Hence, creating inequality by denying that sexism exist and that women are exposed to it and keeping the notions people have about women alive and not questioning them / they are maintained. (same applies to racism). Which seems quite orange and modern form of denying any ism. Or fighting against it. So, the energetic component is the power structure which green is subject to, yet can't go meta and see it as an object. I , also felt opressed by women and like there is matriachy which seemed fking scary and furious/chaotic and opressive. @Emerald are you doing any practices that helps to embody masculin and feminin energies or which traditions could be interesting / useful to look into ? Daoism ? I wanted to start a yoga pratice in the near future and I am not sure if kriya yoga is the thing I want to untangle my blocked chakras or "integral yoga" which they even offer now with the app insight timer, which focuses more on these energies and combines various yoga pratices. As far as I know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_yoga I don't know about turquoise I just think that everything becomes one so maybe it does not matter anymore with these energies and any concept is being transcended and therefore made redundant. So feminin and masculin are not only embodied but their polarities are transcended ? No idea, no experience.

German alternative hip-hop

Someone posted these here a while ago. First one is development of self and the second one is the development of the culture it's from a course from ken wilber that is way to expensive. A description of all stages.

Some are related and some not. I can relate that there are very kind and emotionally affective people but sometimes their values are just fucked and they get very angry when their beliefs are hurt. Kinestetic or sexual is the best line to see that everything does not need to depend on the cognitive line imo

@Elisabeth I can tell you what I know from the audiobooks I listend to . This can offer some clarifications, the more I look into it the more complicated it get's. Anyway, here is what I want to explain. Yellow here has been split into teal and turquoise they sometimes differentiate that into two distinct stages. So, each of these lines can be developed by training them individually, yet you can't go over your overall development in the cognitive line. Wilber called this line in the Audibook cosmic consciousness the straight iq, knowledge, book reading line of development. Since, the interviewer asked. So, you can never reach a higher stage on a different level .. than your cognitive line since that is that what you are aware of . He mentioned that some of the lines correlate for instance the cognitive line with the moral line, that most moral people are intelligent or even highly intelligent. But you can never have a person who is morally higher developed on these stages than his cognitive line. But , you can have people who are high on the cognitive line and low morally, like Nazi scientists. He mentions, that most people who went to university develop their yellow thinking their, since it is more process and systems oriented especially when you study smth. that includes systems like cs or engineering or other stuff pretty much anything nowadays imo.. So, the cognitive line is the most importnat as far as I remember... , yet he mentions also others which are equally important (relative here..) like values, self-identity and cultural ? As far as I remember. Also, some lines can develop individually most likely imo. I do not know everything and can't remember everything, so I am also curious if a person who is not very high on the cognitive line can be morally highly developed or at least in other lines. But most likely everything is possible ? So, not every line is interdepent on others and other lines develop through training them individually. The theory can be picked a part in pieces like these lines here and each could most likely have their own video. Sometimes I think that or even when I type this and ppl read it that you need a high iq for going yellow from what I read .. it accelerates it but the correlation was 0.4 for the self-identity line. When I contemplate about it from my own "emperical basis". I think ego development does the most work for other lines like values, self-identity ofc and needs also. And that the way how you are thinking changes when you reach the yellow cognitive line. Many intelligent people are orange or I would even dare to say the most. I am also curious how values and emotions can be distinguished or if they develop somehow convergingly, that's how it feels partly for me. I would say I am orange / green emotionally and values I am not making a judgement. So, a green cognitive development would be able to see that things are relative and related to the specific thing it relates to. Orange cognitive development would be able to strategize and think through things logically with a neutral facade. But these are my own examples Piaget has most likely better examples and research behind it. ( Did not look it up) An example for a yellow line that I can remember of is the sexual line or even just the integral.. that you are able to integrate both feminine and masculine aspects of oneself even when one of the two is dominant or not or you have a neutral core.

This gets me going I like it when music makes me feel energized and unstoppable.

As far as I know Angela Merkel grew up in the DDR and she worked as a physecist or quantum physecist, so she has a background in science and is most likely heavy orange, while transcending the blue values the DDR installed in her ? She had russian classes and was genius at school I don't know if she is green when I see her on TV I can think that she is slightly, as well as Emanuel Marcon who was a a banker or worked as an investmentbanker. He seems more green then Angela / Angie I've read some of the policies that he wanted to change in France before he was elected, for instant changing the cafeteria menu, so it is 50% vegeterian and vegan mandatorily in all schools/uni. Also creating more space for childrens in day care centers. I don't know what he does now since people are protesting again. I have the feeling that inside of Germany the loose of traditional values is causing the right-wing or rather traditionally minded people to cling more and more to their old values and enforce them upon other people subtely. Mutliculturism failed that is one thing Merkel once said, yet I did not follow politics during that time. I just feel as a mixed and colored person that, people have no clue anymore who is german and who is not german. And that modernism or stage orange is going to become stronger or a collapse will happen and the AFD will reign in the Bundestag. I am scared nowadays in my region since it is a bit more traditional (even) with the u.s military here. That someone will just stab me since he dislikes refugees and can't distinguish for example an indian looking person from a person from syra or even africa / afro-american ( incase this word is not political correct in the u.s sorry !). People take so much pride in their ability to speak german nowadays, I would love to tear them apart verbally, for making fun of people who do not speak german very well. Germany just feels more like America (the middle class), people are starting to take more and more pride in their nationality again because of soccer, which people have been ashamed before because of WW2, yet it feels more like an modern expression, the expression to be the best you can see that if you watch german soccer it's about efficiency and being the best aka the ultimate individual. Going back to refugees I don't think it is bad that they are living here, yet people do not like it when they do not conform to german values and standards. While they are coming from blue countries. Well, I don't know I never talked to a refugee but I have been confused for one which was an odd experience. I grew up with italiens, russians, ukranien people, croatian people, americans and people laos and vietnam. My hometown is a melting pot since we do not have many citizens there overall. Most of them just identify themselves as european or german/their home country, while going to back their own group when they are more modern things are quite coo and people mingle lol l. So, the new ethnocentric thing is calling yourself european ? It is relative since it does help bonding with people from other countires who otherwise would regard themselves as swedish let's just say for example. Most green people that I know come financially strong/er households and go to uni and then abroad, so most younger green people will just pop up all over the world and do not want to live in Germany anymore. It does feel like green as regressed or maybe transcended green, who knows. Most young people want to go to australia, new zealand and start living and working there. Or they work in socical institutions hospitals, schools , or some therapy oriented occupations like physiotherapy. @Ferdi Le Do you think that the refugess will enrich the german culture in terms of it's plurality or do you think it will collapse and break down the system ( socially, politcally, or even economically) ?

@SaaraSabina The question was if there is a good test for spiral dynamics somewhere on the net. All of them seem rubbish till now.

@lmfao When I understand correctly. In order to explain any sort of truth about reality, we have to make an assumption and form a concept about it and that it is impossible to do this without making any assumptions paradoxically. I can see what you mean with, that every truth that a person experiences is wovern into the fabric of someones speech, in terms of how one experiences reality, or explains /discusses smth. I agree with you that I also "believe" that truth is beyond concepts and that we have to use concepts in order to understand what is happening or to point to something, even if that includes pointing to a truth that is beyond concepts. I do understand that "conceptionally", yet I do lack the meditative experience to be in such a state for longer periods of time. I see glimpses of it weekly and ocassionaly daily, where everything just is an interwoven mesh. Sights, sounds and your conceptualizing perception of things stop. Silence drops in and tranquility emerges. That state can't be described with words ? , yet possibly the emotional feeling of it, by using the concepts of language ? Everything turns into a simple happening since you are the witness and see the interplay and beauty of reality, without having a tarnished point of view. Your field of being able to witness sensory experience expands and what is there is irreducible. I don't know. That is how it feels like for me when everything turns into a single happening or chaos beautifully untangles itself, till it is reverting back to it's status quo. There is peace regardles if there is order or chaos or both. It is not a knowing even though I know what you mean by knowing imo. But, it just there. I disagree with you that the most important thing is personal development in terms of becoming enlightend, yet I also agree to the point that it is one of the most fundamentally intriguing things there is and that it is somehow above personal development. Just being (at best without concepts). Although I watched some videos about how enlightenment is not what people usually expect I can't talk from experience since I never had one really. Besides some weird meditation things, where I asked the teacher aftwards what happend, and he just said you dropped very deep and was silent and that I lost consciousness because of going so deep. But, I know my ego could not take the depth of consciousness and I lost consciousness of myself, till my apprehensive ego just came back within seconds. I did not ask him what that was, since he was so silent I just did not want to say anything. And one psychedelic experience/trip. I can understand that learning about integral theory takes time and I never really read the literatue(till now), just a couple of audiobooks about the practices and contemplated the overall map of development ( for a bit over 2 years) . Another member which is gone now ? Send me .. the superhuman course from ken wilber where he explains everything about the integral theory. But, I will just make this point and stop writing. Imo, this is important since you can develop yourself, your values, identity and consciousness and even your sex life. And become a honorabel human being by your own standards without needing to boast about it, or that you become enlightend and do not care morally about your actions. I sometimes dislike the model, since it is sadly only a model / concept and not reailty and I just would like to meditate and become free. Also, I like it extremely and think it's cool that there is research behind some of the stuff, also that you have a map where you can see your value structure and therefore enables you to see what is possible, when you grow yourself further and what to expect when you reach a certain altitude, also it feels quite cool to reach new stages in terms of how you reality and perception of reality changes. I love green german people, the most big hearted fun crowd I meet so far. And trust me xenophobic blue looks different /feels different / acts different. Also, the way how enlightenment is experienced is the same at any stage, yet the way you interpret it and most likely what you can make out of it changes, this is what I know from listening to Ken Wilber. You can just become enlightend at orange and simply do what ever the ultimate individual can do ( not a joke) and have fun and make money. Live a hedonistic lifestyle and enjoy the pleasures the world has to over to you, tons of food, girls / boys / trees/ cats exotic places and still not have the capacity ( according to this model) to be at green and enjoy the beauty of human relationships in terms of the compassion level. I can't tell what happens when you are enlightend and at blue with regards to how one would experience compassion, in comparisson to an green/orange world centric enlightenment. I never meet enlightend blue people or an enlightend person in my life. So, this is a long written form of explaining reasons why integral theory is worth it, I'd like to add one thing that when you are at turquoise / yellow / blue / orange / green and you are enlightend these stages woud fluctuate and are never truly static, through out your day, would you be enlightend through and at all stages ?

Seems promising:

@ChimpBrain Yeah, I had the same thought when I took the test that I WANT to think these are my honest answers somehow they are , but I do not live that way not at all. Even, though I try to think of how I could embody this, it is there and not. Although I would highly value people who act like this or if I can work with them yellow sounds awesome, since competency and knowledge are valued over status, rank and power and integrated into a hierachy, not like green where group sensitivity is valued and nobody wants to make a choice, till someone makes it and everyone finds something better later and implements it, then only to complain about how this and that is wrong now and how we can fix it. At least that was what I thought while working with green people. Blue is horrible, they wait for a command and do not think about the other person till they open their mouth although they do care, green thinks about other people automatically regardless if the people who are present created a group first it just flows into a group or rather community when you work together and I feel you can be very creative at this stage more methaporical thinking and also political, I can express my feelings as a "man"/cisgender masculin w/e and not be laughed about instead I am respected or it is appreciated and you can have fun expressing a part of yourself, that is vulnerable, and not this orange kind of ohhh are you hurt? Then someone laughs at the expens of your feelings or your persona and makes fun of you, or just say it since it was the appropriate response to that situation, but internally they do not care. Imagine the passive-aggresive modern person working in the corporate world talking to you that makes fun of other people only to maintain their sense of self-esteem or status. Or a very secular person not seeing his own bias towards things, yet having a world centric perspective, seeing the injustices of religion, being xenophile and curious about other peoples cultures, yet mostly out of personal interest to learn something or to equip oneself with the status of being a culturally ( and I mean status -> I am better since I have been to xxx countries) educated. Although you can work on your ego this is what the typical modern person looks like without mentioning materalism. Still this is imo. @Elisabeth Orange and green are both world-centric perspectives / viewpoints / lenses they differ in the sense I think the best example ( I will get to global) I can give which I read in some article some time ago, since I am assuming you are interested in feminism etc. after talking about open relationships here. ( I take the blame for this assumption). Is that an orange viewpoint would regard feminism as the capacity to be as successful and have the same rights / opportunites as men while green is more aware of the social construct of gender roles, so they concept of how a certain gender is supposed to behave, can shape their identity based on the capacity of the individual to be aware of their own subjectivity and re-create the concept of gender or rather choose their way "gender" is defined. Yeah, it is a social construct / gender identity politics. ( I am being careful , of course men and women pls spare me for using these words are biologically different and most green people do not want to integrate that idea / perspective imo.. so the social interplay is different and people still complain about the differences at green between men and women..) Global perspective / view (turquoise) is mostly meant in the way that you can see the interconnectedness of everything I would like to talk about a personal example and I will do that here (beaware) . Yet, it is biased since I took psycedelics and I thought about this whole integral theory and perspectives and everything just sort of makes sense at that stage, it is more of an awarness than a value structue for this example and my experience of what could be turquoise. It is global in the sense that you are and cherish every little tiny piece of existence that is there, animals, plants, insects, cells the ground it is valued in the sense that you are not it but feel it's existence. So, it would differ from enlightenment in the sense that you are not it refering to god, consciouness, universe, buddah w/e. But value existence and see it's magnificence. I wanted to highlight that global focuses on every aspect and experience within existence there is. While yellow would be aware of networks, systems and how the enviroment is destroyed / how goverments are managed / built and the interplay of it's single units which make up the system of goverment, and has a strong motiviation to self-actualize. I still do not understand both of these stages fully or at all. Yellow can called an advanced stage of orange since it focuses again on the individual instead of the group like blue and green(imo). You basically break out of the desire to feel accepted and valiated by a group or the "habit" of group sensitivty although you still can use it. But, it feels more autonomous and to a degree more like an autodidact. It feels like it is possible to exercise self-expression without exploiting others, so for example an orange win-win would exploit ressources in order to further develop or be valueable to the car-indusrty / nation. While yellow would figure out a system and express their non-exploitative way of thinking in it and orchestrate it in a way that nobody is going to get hurt. This is just my personal opinion after hearing audiobooks and reading some random stuff online + booptube. This is quite interesting incase you want to know how self-idendity is built. The german article does not need revision from a psychologist, germans are weird. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loevinger's_stages_of_ego_development

@lmfao This is quite complicated, so I do not understand everything about integral theory not even remotely. The pdf is about self-identity and values mainly and they are described as an overview of development with the term consciousness which is used as loose term imo, to describe or categorize the stages there. You can read it in the second paragraph. Yes, it is related to spiral dynamics in the sense the wilber incoperated it into his theory, spiral dynamics focuses on values, wilber on everything . I can speak from my personal perspective how integral theory helped me to develop, yet I will describe it or paraphrase wilber. It helps you in the sense that it move up stages since you have a map which gives you an overview of a territory. Without the map you would not be able to have an overview over the territory and find your destination let's say. So, it is like language when you are a native speaker you can speak your native language, yet you do not see the structure of the language or in this case the map, adverbs, grammatical tenses, nouns, verbs etc. You just know how to use it since you are a native speaker, yet you are not aware of the structure behind it, first when you learn about it you can think about it's structure. In the same sense spiral dynamics or any model from this theory let's you introspect and see the structure which makes up different compartments of whatever reality is aka what you think about.., let's say. So, having a map, theory or model let's you see the system / development or structure behind the thing which you can not see through contemplating it. When I spin this analogy further even when you can find your way through the territory without a map, you still do not know how the big picture or the overview of the territory looks like. You can't get a total birds eye perspective. Even with a map, a map would simply be a tool to show you the birds eye perspective / the big picture of the territory or enviroment, that has been made. Learning about the map let's you see what you otherwise would only experience and there would not be the neccesary knowledge, literature, structure some shit written down that explains things in order to understand what is happening. Let's say you are highly developed in self-identity (Jane Loveinger) you know it since you can introspect , think or/and contemplate about your identity. Therefore, you are able to distinguish that you are somehow different than others, think differently, act differently etc. When you have a map, like typology or even some research at best behind it, you now have an overview. It is possible to read about different ways for example how humans interpret their reality, self, values, world . By reading about it you now have a map and now have a tool which can help you navigate through the jungle of human madness and relate to people better, find people who are thinking differently or to look out for contrarian viewpoints. You are able to develop since you have the know how and the knowledge of where to go or what to potentially expect or where you are at fictitiously speaking. A map is not the territory in the sense that when you walk through the woods the map does not walk through woods and is only an abstraction/generalization of how the territory looks like and you can use it as a tool while walking through the woods. In that sense it is never the territory. The finger pointing to the moon is not the moon is also a cool example for the same concept. Hope this useful in terms of why one could learn about a map or integral theory. Imo this has potential for growth, espcially when there is some research behind it, yet I can't prove it for it's validity although I would like to.

@lmfao I listened to an audiobook yesterday to just think about and refresh the knowledge that I have about integral theory. Meditation and learning about the theory can move you up two stages in 10 years on average if you are age range is between 25 and 50 on average, also development stops when you are 25 years old or somewhere around 26 or 27 and after that start peeking again around the ages 50 - 60. So, you can move up two stages in four years under the age of 25 or till 27 and he also mentioned someother things that move you through the stages like journaling, psychotherapy, and potentially psychedelics, although Wilber did not try them some of his friends tried it, some of them can move you up 0.5 stages, yet he mentioned nothing really about psychedelics, by his tone of voice though it sounded quite promising to him, since they let you access states of consciouness or some meditative states and these states help to develop through the stages and/or stabilize a stage. The audiobook is called cosmic consciouness from ken wilber, here is a pdf incase you are interested. This is pretty much a comprehensive overview of all the researches who make up the integral theory and it's subcomponents, like Don Beck' with Spiral Dynmaics and Jane lovingers ego development theory, I also found this which seems interesting and is also mentioned in the pdf. I did not read it yet. Still, psychdelics are no joke they can mess you up. https://integralwithoutborders.net/sites/default/files/resources/Overview of Developmental Levels.pdf http://www.cook-greuter.com/Cook-Greuter 9 levels paper new 1.1'14 97p[1].pdf