ValiantSalvatore

I've been quiet fortunate till now to not be sucked into to much drama in spiritual circles. Last time something similar happened I checked the place and even received some helpful advice and interaction as they had their own complete own version, yet just were to young imo. Although ultimately peoples interest drifted apart and they split. Most places I've been to are relatively healthy, yet there are the same biases often within the same group of peoples. That is why I liked Shinzen so much as he admitted his past mistakes of abusing weed and being unavailable to people and even seeking psychiatric advice at the age of 60 or so and changing his ways of teaching to serve the people. Not vice-versa. Most spiritual circles even integral have had and have the common issue with suicides, sexual abuse, violence and guru power abuse. There is nothing perfect, only progress. Not denying the feeling of perfection that is something different. Shadow work and trauma work is what mostly negates these efforts and is also Wilbers call IIRC for a fourth turning in budhhism. Generally every spiritual place should have some shadow work module. @Leo Gura Recruting people certainly is devious if it is done in an and especially from a place were people have been exiled from. I always wondred that every coach/spirituality session offer on this forum does not even make the effort to make a reference back to the place they advertise from. As a gesture of appreciation. Lovely ignorance. Not even mentioning in the videos. For me that is not how conscious business looks like. Can you also not copyright strike them for the design of the forum or was this made with a commercially available tool? I would ban 90% of your forum anyway lol. But okay.

@Max_V https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-74140-7 https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/202010/more-proof-vigorous-workouts-boost-fluid-intelligence Found this. Unsure if this helps though.

I've been with a few knowingly gifted people and I was supposed to be tested, yet I did not test it because out of fear of general social condemnation, when my test results are bad as well as my own levels of self-criticisms. I had a lot of issues with this too and I also have an issue with the other side and an overfocus on praticalities etc. There are various issues people do not understand about these people and also there are a couple of generalizations already in this thread, that are misleading. For example many gifted people are also highly sensetive to their enviroment and feel emotions intensely. The issue is the eliteism within any "esoteric" and not exoteric group. Of course this helps for orientations sake, yet that does not mean it's true. I thought about doing it out of a sense of practicalities and getting benefits for further academic studies, yet a lot of academic people are really "stupid". I don't like the way they approach life and general that character is not taught anymore and it's just a technical speed race. I talked just recently to someone who was did psyches and does giftedness coaching for kids as well as he studied this for kids, he certainly knows his limits, we was quiet adament about testing me, as I was supposed to help with different concepts that exist within that spectrum. I could not do it legit out of bad experiences and social condemnation and a lot of gifted people he explained me have that fear. Especially not having an academic family etc. He did not make intelligent decisions, yet these decision were more the product of how he was educated, instead of he himself. While other gifted people had very good parenting and/or the ressources to address issues. This is my opinion. Also there is a lot of arrogance in normal people against gifted people who also have issues, especially the perception of giftedness/high iq. I meet a few gifted people in my life and they helped me a lot during times of uncertainity and chaos, where "normal" people would never have the cognitive capacity to do it. I usually get along well with them, yet the overfocus on technical analysis in academia is just bad in my opinion. The more linear your thoughts, the better usually it is. While big picture thinking is also a big facet of "IQ", but there is barely any focus of it from what I heared from my gifted friends they all complain about this. But see the technical overfocus as a neccessary reality. Whatever. I do agree for me it is heavily demoralizing and I appreicate a more holistic and flattend perspective of the concept, also to not further benefit a body of thought that is full with ideas of meritocracies. I do think when it comes to learning intellectual humility is far more important and admitting ones ignorance. A lot of gifted people I meet were the nicest people and the most compassionate people I ever got to know, the point is everybody is an idiot and everyone has different capacities in the domain sheer cognitive intelligence. When I did the screening for it I was suprised that I even fall into the category of it as well as which categories stood out, legit pissed me off. And I do have legit my own set of problems because of it. Just alone that the concept of IQ exists. Trust me I hated it for years and now I am supposed to benefit from it. I am also pretty sure IQ can be increased 100000% when people life and eat healthy, especially when young. There are new studies that are coming out everyday that I read for example cognitive speed does not decline till the age of 60. I can also just say again this is about understanding differences and including them. Not to demonize any other side... --- I don't like it either when someone is more intelligent than me in any sense it triggers competition, yet I through praticing intellectual humility and admitting that I don't know what I don't know, I learned a lot from more intelligent people. I could write endlessly about this, yet I don't think it is useful. I do also get hung-up about this because it's essential for survival in a sense and I did not have the best experience with it. Even though I qualify for testing as gifted. It's ridiculous. I find the concept of IQ generally is a lot just about ego and survival. Nobody likes to feel stupid and feel disrespected.

Today some clubs are opening again and I am going out with some friends. I still have the biggest issue with just approaching, I usually have a lot to a decent amount of fun when going out. I have the biggest issues with approaching and knowing what to say. I did not approach a lot of women yet approx 10 or as I am selective as well as it's just not easy. What can I say as an opener? When I sort of free flow and associate I just said. hey you look cute, can I grab your number? hey want to dance? That is quite generic I know more polarazing openers, yet I have issues being nudged into doing it as well as I never tried them as they are out of a book for example. I'll lost my notes these are out of a book. Who do you think is the stronger gender men or women? Who cheats more men or women? Who are better liars men or women? Who is more dominant in relationships men or women? Would you rather not have sex for one year or not use your phone for one year? Do strong men still exist? I have issues coming up with stuff on my own for example I would say. How come most men are scared of leading are women the better leaders? What are your thoughts about feminine guys do they turn you on? Would you ever date a serial killer? Pick 3 people in the club who would you fuck, kill or marry? What is a drink no man should ever order? Would you attend a gay marriage? I like your black dress. I like XXX, what was the worst compliment you ever received? What do you think about unsocial guys? Again, my question is what are good openers? What worked for you? Note: The ones out of the book are indirect openers that tend to be polarazing and get the group engaged/befriend etc. These are apparently for sets with 3-4+ girls and mixed groups.

@JosephKnecht I like Eckhart Tolle's take on this when a burning log is placed next to another log a larger fire is being created, I am obviously paraphrasing. I contemplated this too online and offline with retreats offline and online about energy transmisson... Speaking from personal experiences I am quiet sensetive to energy, emotions, vibes of a room or field. There have been cases where I felt the whole group drags me down as well as the whole group uplifts me. It's like similar when you go out and everyone is in a super good mood because of a warm summer day and suddenly you get infected by the mood of the group, when you allow sort of the experience. At a zen retreat I felt after people finally stopped complaining as beginners and started to get into the practice the headmonk of the monastary lead the isness of the experience this was in Soto Zen. I was amazed by the level of guidance on an energetic level how well he adjusted to the whole field of influxes that occures. Every tiny bit and I generally felt very uplifted and my experienced deepend everytime the energy shifted towards depth of what consciouness is. Same with online retreats as people reported their practice and talked in a Vipassana style, as apparently they talk to much. You get a sense or impression of the field of people and their mental state, physical state, experiences etc. Some reported very advanced states that I could not comprehend so I moved back sort of to my reality bubble. When I had an incling of getting into the depth of consciouness the guidance was often so good, it felt like I even orchastrated the whole experience, via my "state" as well as uplifted and deepend other peoples practice. Like a great coach etc. who would give in any given area drive towards more depth of the experience. So I definitely felt the energy of the group as well as even the weather, depth and experience of the coach and/or teacher helped with the deepening, Not with explaining the technique in a better way, but with their own depth of consciouness. Generally this contains the whole idea of Shaktipa (energy transmission) or not? I am not very familiar with it. Not wanting to derail the specifics of the questions, yet I definitely would say that there she could have experienced it that way and it actually just happend, she could have caused it herself or you legit caused it lol. There are so many scenarios. Of how, what and why. I'd definitely believe it's possible, yet I would not believe by accident, she could have made it up etc. TLDR; Simply said I do think energy is contagious that goes for for the push and pull of it too as well positivity and negativty. For example feeling drawing to an exotic place, women, nature, certain animals etc. As well as repusled by some of it. Etc. I never hit a "true" non-dual state, so this is sort of my take on this. This is Shinzens explanation, yes it's a bias.

@Spence94 I looked briefly at the skyline it's beautiful! I don't know if I ate Sichuan hotpot, but I love freaking hotpot and Sichuan is the hotpot state IIRC. Also learning Tai Chi I personally think is just cool I've tried it once at an retreat in person from a guy. It was actually difficult only for one day and 30 minutes though lol. I know what you mean . You should definitely get in contact with Shinzen he's been quite adamant about dispersing his unified mindfulness to chinese culture, as spirituality is dying there. Also his unified mindfulness is quiet popular there and I bet you'd find a lot of friends and contacts via him in China. I only know one way to contact one of the life practice programm attendes who lives dircetly in China. A chinese guy who likes Ken Wilber called Sheekus. Via the integral forum, yet I don't know how often he uses it. Otherwise you can 100% contact Shinzen formally him via the site linked below. You can easily apply and ask all kind of questions, for instance also just I am an intermediate meditator learning shinzens system etc. wanting to ask for how I can spread mindfulness through chinese culture at best finding new contacts and people to teach and learn from etc. Don't be shy in that sense. I usually try to attend this once a year, as this is exclusive time to speak with a legit western master in that sense and to check-in with my level of practice. He'd also love your pretty sure for having interst in Chinese culture and tradition. Usually not as many people apply, yet I can give you the e-mail of the organizer in case you want to reach out that way, in case she still does it. Yet not publically if I still have it or her skype contact and she'd be pleased about hearing brining mindfulness to the east via Shinzen. Also Shinzen is a giant fan of asian culture, that should not be a secret. https://www.lifepracticeprogram.com/guest-info Also, hell yes if I ever go to China again especially for a longer time I'll contact you! I'd doubt at this point that it will happen, yet you never know. Unsure who else to ask there are also unified mindfulness coaches in China pretty sure through Shinzen, I bet he can link you up, bet it's via Facebook though so VPN might be neccessary. Hope this helps and again. Much success and good luck!

@Spence94 You're welcome . Yeah living and working is definitely challenging. I was happy that they have so many restaurants and the food is usually very good. Then coming home and studying chinese etc. Wish you much success in your personal development as well as self-actualization endeavours. As well as studying chinese.

@Spence94 I dunno where you live in China I lived in China for 6 months. I generally had a similar experience that most of the time people are kind hearted, lovely and beautiful. I stayed in Beijing and my company also had some foreigners from the EU and I was able to meet them through the agency that brought them there. I am from Germany, but half American as well as half/half in ethnicity white and black. Fears, judgements, projections etc. I've seen most of it there, besides violence. I generally still would say my experience with it was better then in the E.U as people are not as hypocritcal and deny the differences. I am unsure what the post is about. I'd love to provide feedback, yet I can only relate to the experience partially, also 5 years is an enormously long time staying in a foreign country and culture. When I travlled through China to Shanghai and Xiamen as well as a couple of other cities. Mainly in the big ones Beijing, Shanghai I meet a lot of westerners in hostels. Many stayed there to study or are teachers. For example I was talking to three english teachers two from the U.K and one from the U.S (all white) talking about life conditions there. Most seemed to love it and earned a decent amount of money from what I can recall. Yet had struggles with relationships and finding new opportunities besides gaining some certificates? For teaching higher level english or w/e. Some were torn between continuing living there, good food, awesome people, a lot of comaredery, generally cheap, awesome culture, amazing travel opportunities inside the country and going back to western lives. Also the level of propaganda is quiet insane if you compare it to the west, visiting for example the Temple of Heaven in Beijing with my chinese boss, he explained to me that old people are singing to the state and it's glory worshipping it close to god. I asked him and he said it's not really his "tea" although he had a deep respect for chinese culture etc. Hope you are doing fine I saw some weird shit on YouTube channels explaining some issues living in China, I don't know if it is bloated "haze". Yet, he explained westerns not allowed to travel outside the country, goverment denying stuff etc. Accusations of rape because of visiting massage palors and being beaten then police not doing anything because he is western. Again unsure where you live I found an apparently legit meditation teacher who tought westerners, yet the group was quiet exclusive as they meet via WeChat and the organizer was the kind of women who is deeply stuck in orange, she was unable to just add me to the group and let me do stuff on her own lol. So, I was unable to join. I bet you can also do awesome first class retreats in Burma/Vietnam with legit masters etc. As it was rather difficult finding something in regards to spirituality that was not tai chi. Which would be hardcore, if you are into that stuff. You definitely should contact Shinzen Young or Janusz Welin I once asked them for retreat locations of legit masters as I wanted to stay there for 3 months etc. https://deepmindfulness.io/about https://www.twitch.tv/deepmindfulness You can ask questions live there are not many people and the dude is very open he did a retreat in Burma and hit stream entry, that was my question... I do think the seperation you feel is quiet normal on a relative level, I liked for example the level of compassion of the chinese people a lot as well as the what ever works works attitude and focus on skill development and consistently appreciating that. All the craftsmanship I saw in China was amazing and blew me away, temples, just even how nature sculpted itself etc. Let alone how one country can be so big. At the sametime I missed my western friends and lifestyle feeling not restraint in this giant box which was Beijing and the "mega city" life. Also just by my teenage upbringing and friendships I feel a lot closer to asian people usually, I mainly missed the casual conversations and just spending time walking around with western friends, eating, drinking, laughing etc. I loved living in China and would most likely move there again. I attempted learning chinese on my own, yet I did not get very far , so I know how that undertaking feels. I tried reading and speaking mainly.

@Leo Gura Wow I'd thought this was still in line and a nice guy move or at least bold and edgy I said it like I was curious and happy. Whatever I just won't do it.

@Leo Gura Aight I see what comes to mind. Last time I've said something about I'd love to see some naked boobs loud into the public then the barkeeper came with us into the club and said smth. silently with boobs and I ellbowed her boobs like 3 times with enough space. She just ran into me like on purpose with her boobs. This sh*t will definitely take some training. I'll see what improv interests come up as well as to speak with authority and clear intent. Aight aight I just see what I can come up with and what will happen in the moment. Thanks again for the exemplar. I'll see how far I'll get with all of this and focus on opening and being improvisational. Last time I triggered teacher when I improvised I laughed at her and myself and kept teasing her about, how can you teach elementary school children osmosis, I thought this is so funny. At one point she grabbed my hair angrily and shook me. In good jest. She had a boyfriend though. I'll see what will happen I think I am with the right people.

@vindicated erudite Thanks I'll see what I can free flow associate with. And inquire about themselves.

@vindicated erudite Yeah I am with friends, I like to connect people so I don't really care. I just need a fun topic.

@Leo Gura Thanks a lot also! How do you follow up though? Asking about interests what she's doing here and then going for number asking for haning-out inside the club or if they want to join us and staying till the set closes? I re-watched your part 2 of getting laid series and there was a lot of info. I do have to re-watch it again though and then take action. I do think outergame is the bigger issue than my inner game currently. --- @vindicated erudite I'll add the technical nuance, this is for opening an entire set of more than 3-4+ girls and mixed groups IIRC. I did not mention that. That is my bad. A direct opener I would use what you wrote, yet I will open larger sets also. I really like attention so the indirect openers are for larger sets. My own openers are bad I admit etc. etc. but okay.

@Federico del pueblo Thanks a lot!. I'll copy this and modify it as well as use the lines that already fit within my personality or I like. Yeah I am a bit afraid of the follow up as well as how fast physical escalation can work. I'll just focus on the opener just opening and seeing IOT's is good enough for starters. Also all of these are sort of the supercategory of observational openers. Thanks again. I'll see what will happen and works for me.

@something_else Yeah that is what I also thought observational openers could work the best for me. These openers are supposed to work for bars and clubs. What summarized. What are simple openers to you? I'd like to focus on just opening first and learning that for a while and then move on.

@Superfluo Usually you have muscle memory so if you built it once you can re-train it faster how fast I don't know. Yet IIRC the crux is you have to re-train, yet it builds faster. This gives a good science perspective. I am also not an expert, yet he studied this stuff IIRC. This is a partical video: This should give a good strategic view. A 3 day full-body workout per week. Might give you what you need and are looking for. A 5 day split can be quiet ambitious. This is more how muscle memory works. In case my post was not helpful or missed the mark. Let me know. Again I am no expert, neither do I look like the guy in the video.

@Vivaldo I have a similar experience as Leo most guys who I know who get laid a lot are not as tall as me many are way better at socializing and taking initiative. 5'10-5'11 is normal. You are way taller than most women. Yes, I get compliments for my height I am 6'3, yet it does not really help me besides creating sympathy and some socialization occasion, it's an easy thing to comment on for girls when she likes you or finds your interesting. It's not as much as you think and it's mostly in work enviroment settings as well as casual socializing with friends. Where my height is commented, yet not when going out. Can't actively recall an instance were a girl complimented my height when I was doing night game the couple of times now I went since last year. Tbh it's the same as when girls and guys tell you, you are good looking at one point it can be annoying. So I generally pay not to much attention to it and use the situation to be social, say thank you and give a compliment back. Won't deny it's an advantage. Socialization and taking action as well as escalating seem to be way more important than height. Most guys who are good with women I've meet are smaller than me. So, I don't think it matters as much. I'd personally rate clothing style, confidence and experience with women higher than height in terms of attracting women. As well as good leadership. Basically being assertive and fun. Women during night game grativate to good vibes like moths towards light. It's amazing to observe that still, as I am sort of a mellow person.

@Vivaldo Lmao, maybe you are one! I am in the same boat in terms of approaching most guys have approach anxiety you are not alone here. I never really gamed, yet just being social and talking helped me a lot to be calm around super hot women. Definitely use the chance when an attractive girl checks you out and keeps prolonged eye contact and ask for he number, you can easily from then on initate a meet up with her/conversation. For bowling, coffee, a drink. Do fun stuff! Have fun doing this and activities that are fun for you. It's your life mate! Be couragous and bold. This stuff definitely hurts. Get the number 100%. I regret one approach for example a couple of weeks ago as she checked us out and she was totally my type. I am also not used to approaching as I focused so much on online-dating.

@Vivaldo I made the same mistake hundred of times and I'll most likely still make it of not doing anything when girls look at me. I get consistently asked if I have a girlfriend. That I look good. That I am handsome. When I was jacked I had girls saying out aloud omg this guy must be gay I read that this basically means she is already thinking sexually about you and can't believe you don't have a girl etc. One guy said I should work as a model, yet whatever. Same when I am going out currently some girls start making eye contact and I've read now that it basically is a good opportunity to engage in conversation even in public for example girl sitting infront of you in a bus/subway when there are clearly others places and the bus is relatively empty. As well as when a girl is unable to look you into the eyes completely she already is showing interest as she is hidden her attraction towards you, being shy etc. When she keeps making eye contact for a prolonged time and then looks away that definitely is an invitation for conversation. Some trivial scenarios as well as some counter-perspectives. I went out with a friend of mine he is a very high vibe guy and at the sametime relaxed and chill. He can dance quiet well. So he told when he goes clubbing and starts dancing with friends and he turns up, dance battles start happening and he get's challenge he declines he is not that good. Sometimes girls come to him for dancing as well. Another example is when we were out dancing together in some club we were 3 tall good looking dudes. One girl with her friend approached him and wanted to spend him a drink, he did not like it that she ghosted him. For some reason and just declined, yet she kept initiating for like good 1-2 minutes and he had to look away and ignore her. I jumped in and started dancing with her friend to build sort of a group, she was quiet receptive, yet he did not like her so they moved on. He was also approached and he is not jacked just good looking, and yeah tall. By some smoking hot girl when he was on a bike from the gym ( he lost a lot of weight) he was approached by her she screamed some stuff out of the car. Like I could not believe the story we went out on the sameday he rejected the other girl. He rejected this one either by not staying she invited him over for beer and he wanted to dance, she said she'll come up. Yet this idiot from my point of view misaligned interests. She already approached him! And he does not comply. As he wanted to go his own way and do what he wants. They wanted to meet never meet again. This sometimes can happen if you go out alot. My example was I was went into a club and started making eye contact some were more receptive and one girl kept looking at me, yet I did not approach her as I did not know that this "should" be an invitation for conversation. I approached other girls and got my friend laid through that. I am also legit scared when a girl makes eye contact as to engage especially when I am alone with others in public, like waiting in line even to get into a club. I have girls checking me out. You could easily approach, yet I feel paralyzed almost sometimes. Another example just being social. Last saturday I went out with a friend who has a pull rate till now of 90% or so it's rather shocking. He fucked the same girl twice that day and one other girl he took home. He was also approached by a girl as I was standing infront of him as "excuse" to be social. He approached a couple of girls, yet we already had two with us. Still since he is so social the same girls keep gravitating to him if everbody chickens out or she is just pleased by the guy. I approached 0. I tried to physical escalate with one, basically while walking put my arms around her and pulled her into me after talking a bit. She was quiet receptive that was shocking to me. Anyway the guy basically just does nothing besides being social and going for the pull. At one point saying let's go to your place and let's go etc. I am done. He noticed the one girl was blowing the beer bottle and she pushed him into the toilett twice and fucked him twice in a strip club... It was a bit wild. He also looks good and is approx. the same height as you with 5'10-5'11. He also texted other girls while out to see what is still up, so he can get laid. Still was mostly being social and went to high vibe areas. He also greets a lot of the bar owners and waitresses and talks with them. Which get's him access into clubs faster. Talking and dancing with women basically. It's rather insane going out with the dude in a shitty area and he really really does nothing besides being social and fun, and escalating as well as a bit leading. I do more leading tbh, but okay. I do think this subtle signals like blowing the bottle, longer eye contact are clear indicators she is interested, so talking is the best thing you can do. I barely talked so I did not get anything. My observation was talking to girls makes you look social, so girls feel less judged if they approach and talk to you or give you IOT as well as this is social proof in a sense especially when you talk longer with a girl or escalate. TLDR; It's an IOT (indicator of interest) for conversation and just approaching. With the group of 5 no idea, they could be giggling as out of interest/fantasy. Same with girls calling me gay out of a group. Hope this is not to long and readable.

Please don't let this forum again deterriorate into stage orange madness. Like it was before with a reward system that was in place here. That is absolutely stage orange incentivised as if this stuff is multi-systemic. It was absoutely horrible and a status festival. As well as the amount of subtle racist posts I've seen was horrible. So much bias with a rating system. To binary.

@Hello from Russia Definitely all media usage will suck up time and conscious media as well as mind expanding media definitely has the benefit of just feeling well and relaxed as well as entertained and can definitely be a tool for relaxation and recreation or even nuturing your inner child like watching your favorite movie you did as a kid. When I consume very toxic media I definitely feel the vibe of that media inside my body and mind and for news sources I tend to look for the least polarazing and most professional sources. Although I do sometimes just watching the hype mass media just to see the general sentiment of the general public. I also find it inevitable to not feel it when going outside and there is some drama, yet when I am more conscious and more consumed more conscious videos. Like dharma talks etc. I either feel often that my energy is being sucked away or that the negative energy does not affect me at all anymore. As my inner state of emotions is so stable. When I go out into the world. Working out, working, studying etc. It's a bit like a movie. All media is the new TV imo. YouTube, Actualized.org, Netflix, Amazon prime, Snapchat, Instagram, WeChat, WhatsApp, Facebook etc. Generally I keep since I use a lot of YouTube my recommended section clean so only mostly conscious materials are presented and I use a lot of music from YouTube while having studied or working. I disclued any channel that has a toxic vibe and does not serve me anymore and try to add as many channels as possible, so I still have a variety of options beng recommended to me. So I am not locked into narrow-mindedness. Generally it's a new TV since it sucks up a lot of time and it could be re-oriented towards more prolific undertakings or conscious endeavours. I use YouTube a lot I do think and from what I saw sometime ago it's definitely the most conscious and the least polarazing generally available media source, altough people can get stuck in YouTube toxic rabbit holes and ideologies. For example when I started dating, the YouTube algorithm determined to show me videos of why modern man suck and to embrace masculinity I watched one video and thought it's okay, yet still not very conscious. So I deleted all videos. Sometimes I find it's a test in consciouness to see how well you do enduring toxic stuff. Yet, I don't want to claim this is universally true, although negativity affects me less, yet hits me harder the more conscious I become. TLDR; Would be yes.

@LastThursday I dunno if you read the book they have life conditions that can be fostered through the description qualities/traits of all of these stages. Which is sort of the main difference that can be found and something that is still mindboogeling to me how I can create that in my own life etc. I bought more books on SD, I read the spiral dynamics in action book also. Sort of the tapestry of traits being woven out of characteristics and qualities within each SD is what SD makes a cluster of traits for me. https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/turquoise/ I am unsure anymore if the book etc. all SD resources talk about traits, I tend to forget at one point. This is by far the most important nuance and what many people forget about SD, all these qualities are still active and can be used etc. For me for it's just extremely difficult even after having done courses and the recommended practices to get to the next stages to explain the development without a map. That is true. I sometimes dislike it as they can be just seen as "feel good" models instead of taking even simplicity serious and as well as having just fun with the model and not taking it serious. I'll definitely will be conscious of this info when going out lmao.

@BlueOak I can see your point of view that when someone shouts or triggers you enormously, we have this fantasy of oh we should not be angry and reply with some sort of threat of violence of our own. Or shout back, fight back, threaten etc. I am neither ego free nor awoke.I did have some state experiences in meditation retreats and taking some psychedelics. Also dissolving a lot of shadow material on psychedelics. I find these moral questions are really really important and tbh I did not study this extensively, yet read about the models from Kohlberg etc. There are different issues. My favorite take on this with anger is for example if you are on a life boat, with a nazi, hells angels, an architect, a backer and you/me. The hells angels / nazis have to go they will cling to power, you can run all of the SD stages through it and apply the moral lense that shapes these values of each stage. Hells angels red / terrorist red / nazis red etc. On the persons themselves. How green would act, how yellow would act etc. I liked Wilbers answer a lot that the hells angels/nazis or pure red need to go, basically you'd have to get rid of them in order for all of you to survive, instead of for example applying the moral lense of "oh we are all equal" let's let the nazis stay they are not threatening our survival. Let them stay in hopes that we are not killed/raped etc. When we arrive at an island with our life boat and they will cling to power because of lack of morals etc. You see this from the higher perspective and more mature perspective, even though it might seem less moral at lower stages and more "immature" at not fully ripe stages. Ego backlashes, aftershocks, dark knights etc. All can be experienced during the path. I had more dark experiences like purgatory when meditating. Not on pyschedelics fortunately. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a344llNU15Y Insights I found in my own meditations is that a deep compassion is behind anger, when the emotion is fully digested/purged etc. Does not mean anger stops etc. Love and gratitude are also for me deep ways in which I can transcend this intense thoughts about violence/anger as well as my projection of them, which is not easy to sort of love your enemy. I love to give the flipside analogy of my personal experience. I meet a nazi when I was 18 or so who was 17 he was so racistly loving to me I could not help loving the guy, even if he was like blatantly overt racist, after a while he said to me. You know what for a black guy you are pretty decent. I had to laugh so hard, he turned fully red. After that we had a lot of fun. Finding ways to express all of these feelings and doing shadow work of some sort is important. I am not a shadow work expert as this as I stopped and changed my shadow work practice to smth. that many might not recommend or even consider. I'd prefer not using violence either, yet sometimes it's neccessary in my opinion to exercise force.

@BlueOak Ultimately it's about deconstructing identity, a healthy ego/identity definitely helps to smoothen the process.

@BlueOak You can run both pathways. Feeling leads to identity as well as identity leads to feeling. Early chilhood upbringing, trauma, successes, positive experiences etc. All can form an identity through emotions/energetic experience basically the whole being collectively and individually. Collective and individual mass identities of I am an american, human being, a chef, an architect, a computer programmer, father, mother, husband, wife, gay, white, black, meditator, healer, artist etc. All of these are mostly formed through emotions and through thought and are perpetuated by it. When the reference experience does not fundamentally change thoughts, feelings, energetic experience all sense gates etc. Then there is no fundamental shift in identity. As well as when these emotions do not change. The fundelmental identity does also not change. For example I can have an experience as a meditator that shifts my entire identity to the point where an identity does not even make sense, all of these categories. As well as the fundamental shift in emotions experienced also changes. Or to give a more real world personal example. When I was working out and shifted as a mindset my identity from being a guy at the gym, to being an athelete in training or even when meditating while working out a god in training. It definitely helped me to feel more positively and hit more flow states and forget the issue of identity, self-refrence, ego etc. completely. As well as my emotional state shifted thanks to the flow state hit more joy, more passion, more love, less hate, less pride, less apathy, less shame etc. That would be a shift in identity leads to a different shift in what you feel. It also hads some negative qualities with it I felt more vanity and pride also. Also a shift in what I feel leads to a shift of my identity I could start feeling a lot of contentment and pleasure in my life so I identify myself now as a happy human or happy guy, instead of when I just felt more miserable as an unhappy and unsatisfied guy or human. I can be a happy chef and I can be an unhappy chef. The quality of my work will shift etc. So the identity shift and the emotional shift both have a casual relation. I'd say. It's a both and question not either or. It's interconnected feeling and identity.