whiterabbit

@Leo Gura So what are you proposing exactly as an alternative? To score another hit of psychedelic every once in a while to spend some extra time in the multiverse.... just to come back to this dream? I do not mention meditation because you can sit your ass off as much as you want, without going on a psychedelic trip. Interesting that at the same time you say to Seed 'you're stuck here' and that jumping in front of a car isn't so smart given the rules of the dreams. So... since you're in the dream when your girlfriend flies to visit you or you see your family, what do you do, you love them and make the most of your time although impermanent or you tell them 'get out of here, you holograms... I got work to do to get out of here and into the multiverse. You mean nothing'..?

@Leo Gura Yes conventional happiness ends. But I quite don't see how you can like that state. The 'end of suffering' isn't cool! It's so flat. At what I believe to be the peak/plateau it wasn't that bad because I was mostly passed out into the eye of God. And YET, even then when I was him and equanimous to ALL (murder or sainthood being equally peacefully witnessed) in a perfect balance of mathematical perfection..... there was still that feeling of something missing. I feel the missing bit was the expression of love. I was a silent calm numbness like an eternal womb... like the mute sound of a drop into the ocean somehow hearing itself and making the sound, an ontological self-reflective unity.. with some depth missing. Something was missing. I believe it was The love and drama of dual life. That's why I believe that in Christianity you have God and also Jesus who's become a man in flash and bone and decided to go through all the horrible suffering out of love for humanity. During that trip I felt I had to make a choice and either stay or incarnate into a human body. That's why I became kind of obsessed with moving (lol) I felt that it was a choice to be made, between being God or giving it all up for one shot at manhood and I was willing to sacrifice infinity just to be back into humanity and redeem human beings and express my love (like Jesus). In the later part of the trip I guess because of coming down a bit, I could stand up and not just lie down, and that's when it was scarier, because the room was more clearly perceived however there was no sense of self. It was like being eternally damned to watch a show that makes no sense at all, and that I don't wanna watch, that I did not choose. So I'm all and yet I can't modify any piece of the all. What a terrible paradoxical set-up! The physical perspective of seeing my hands, body etc did not change, just to clarify. Just the absense of a sense or control or localized self. There was also recoginition of the fact that 'well.. at the end of the day it's always been like this. Now it's so clear. You screwed yourself man... you've led yourself to this point to see what always was. You set up the little clues along the way of your life... only to come back to this evidence and now there's no denial. This is it. Forever. Cannot return to not see. It's done". HOWEVER.......this did not remove the feeling of 'wishing the illusion of control and selfhood could come back. It was undeniable and yet horrible. The inevitability and clarity did not make it any better. Emotions of despair still existed. Then ....the illusion came back yay...Of course, the substance vanished. It's not like we can live in a trip forever, our brain chemistry has its own workings. Then I went trhough a process of riconstruction so to speak that was quite painful because it showed me my selfishness in various areas etc. Now I feel so much more loving especially towards the people in my life like family etc, I see relationships improved, I feel more appreciative of their presence in my life and grateful for the simple fact of actually being able to deal with someone OTHER than me! Even though it's an illusion, I just feel a big THANKS for the illusion of the friend who talks to me, the neighborh who crosses my path... the perception of OTHERHOOD God bless duality! I believe we need both! We need an ego. Good needs Manking, mankind needs God. Why would you need Jesus in Christianity? Because as I experienced in the first part of the trip, in that eternal equanimity there's no room for truly expressing love. That's why jesus/ myself makes that choice. Just out of LOVE!! And this resonates with other experiences I had with meditation etc. they end up in Love. Not in wishing I'll get into a different state of consciousness. Not in wishing one day I'll work my way towards enlightenment or such. Just in feeling more love. Now. And love means also paying attention and saying Thanks. Which sometimes can be difficult. More than meditating for hours. We are different, and so we may draw different conclusions....you seem to be shooting to get 'there'. I feel grateful to be here now. Meditation sometimes I do, but it does not matter much anymore....I don't know what'll happen upon death and right now I don't even wanna know, since I feel that I just want to be right here, to be grateful and express Love! So in this spirit I say thanks to you for pointing towards a tool for healing. And - at least for me - a tool that has the purpose of bringing healing in coming back here, in this beautiful 3 dimensional plane

I followed your advice and arranged to have a very large dose of psychedelics. I understood all you talk about. Aside from some limitations of language, yes agree, all true. However it seems that we've come back with totally different learnings. Bc of this particular session being extremely long lasting, somehow the more loving part (and positive side of being God) that happened earlier on is more easily forgotten, as compared to the more terrifying part later on, most likely upon coming slowly back to base (although it's hard to tell when there's no time). I don't know why you would shoot for this state. I was the eternal dreamer, the God indifferent to all, constantly bringing anything in and out of existence. Being awake or being asleep made no sense, they were both. All opposites vanished too. Outside of linear reality, at some point all was pure insanity. Existances were all infinite possible dreams, but I just wanted back to this one. Then there was the coming back in a room where I'd stay for infinity but not being any part of it, not my body, not anything, but witnessing for all for eternity with no control over what happened. That was the deepest mourning ever. That just sucked. Who would want to live like that forever. Back into this dream I created, I feel so loving and grateful for every instant of this illusion. Having parents, friends or breathing, having a body, just feels a gift and a blessing now. That didn't seem like such an orgasmic state as you describe. At a point it was similar to what Suzanne Segal describes in the excerpt you shared. I happily take the illusion over it!

@Leo Gura Have you sat down and contemplated for 100 hours straight? And if so you empirically verified that's a prerequisite for enlightenment? I must also assume you do not consider the 10-day Vipassana camp as 100 hours straight, since in the 10 days there's breaks in between the 1 hours sits (which they don't do in the 20 or 50 days, giving it more continuity of practice). Otherwise you are accepting the idea that awareness can also be sustained during lunch or dinner break or bathroom. Then if that is the case... you come to realize that awareness can be sustained at all times, cutting the distinction from practice and non practice. Of course in my opinion, this needs not to be taken as an excuse to slack out of formal sitting right off the bat. On the other hand it's equally silly to sit for two hours per day and then totally failing to integrate the practice into life by going completely unconscious when going about your work, or meal or a walk etc, and never reminding oneself of the direction of one's own focus. As you can see, your tally of the hours becomes really tricky. What's practice and what is not? What qualifies as 100 hours? As for the logic Leo, fine I agree, let's wrap it up here. But you often play with the field advantage in your forum and comments. You appeal to logic to make a point and then when someone finds a massive flaw in it, you change the framework and say that logic doesn't matter. Then if it doesn't matter why bother making THAT specific point you made? You could have as well made a damn stupid meaningless point about kittens and it's equally relevant to enlightenment since logic doesn't matter anyway! Why not speaking about kittens and Kim Kardashan in Actualized.org since logic doesn't matter? Now you may say that you make a point only to help PRACTICALLY, then I've just told you that the point you made in this specific instance is so logically flawed that it cannot possibly help EVEN PRACTICALLY given it doesn't even hold onto its premises... You say you're not here to make a coherent model of enlightenment? Unfortunately that's exactly what you're doing. It's a path of self discovery, yet you tell people: 1) What do do step by step 2) Exactly what they will find at the end of the path 3) How to check if they have really found it! haha. And then you offer a huge theoretical framework, and the logic for which a certain amount of hours would be required as if you were talking about building a lego house. As for the masters, I've hung around teachers, people who have practiced for 20-30-40 years, met monks, listened to interviews with monks as well, and frankly none of those I listened to has ever said 'it takes this or that long', nor 'enlightenment will be like this' (e.g. baammm there's no one at home - your quote) etc.etc. Not to dismiss your teachings at all. You're bringing one perspective out of the many, with its own value. And we're all grateful for it. But this generalization you constantly use like 'speak to masters and it's obvious' ... well, I did and .... it's NOT obvious. Especially because 'masters' means nothing. Who are we speaking about here? Do you have a probe to measure the enlightenment of specific human beings then hold them up as a standard? What I see it's just MEN. Some of the highly admired so-called enlightened people are also flat out bullshitters by the way. Some have also kind of flipped out after decades of meditating their asses off, and frankly going to the supermarket or having a cuppa with a friend every now and then would have totally helped them! I'll tell you something more. Since they're all just MEN, good 'food' for for enlightenment may equally likely come from unenlightened people! But the main point for your audience is: did you get it yet? Because if not, you don't know what you're talking about. And when you say you didn't get it just because you're focusing on business and research, then drop actualized.org. Then come back and talk to me. P.S. I'm not trying to be an ass. I like your channel Leo. Cheers,

@Leo GuraWhere does this idea come from? Which masters and in which traditions specifically told you so and did they esplicitely mention that the goal of the practice is to escalate up until a 'break through' moment? It would help if you were more specific when you mention 'masters' in general as authorities. Because I can count heaps of 'masters' as you call them that say nothing like that. Also, have you broken through or become enlightened yourself? If not you should then apply your own advice to drop any idea of what enlightenenmet is like and question it, regardless of what masters say or do. You just invited someone on this blog to ask himself: what if all this englightenment this is a scam and Leo is lying to me? Well, then what if those monks running marathons around the mountains are just fucking wasting their time not knowing it isn't necessary? What if they are no different from the person shopping and shopping and shopping thinking that at some point he/she will be happy? What if they are too victims of their own programming? Those are questions that you should ponder as part of 'radical open mindedness' and in your pursuit of Truth. Also you just said it can take ONE SECOND or never. So where does the 100 hours straight idea come from? 100 hours is mere child's play? How about choosing the ONE SECOND option then? Actually, to be fair, one should be practicing 24 hours per day. Why limit it to formal sitting? Whether you are a monk, a CEO or a farmer. If you wash the dishes and while you do, you wash the dishes. If you walk and while you do you... walk. If you breath and ... breath. Well, you're practicing. Continuous unbroken awareness. Then finally there's no practice or not practice. Although I understand that in your self inquiry approach there's the question 'who am I' that defines the perimeter of the practice, as opposed to sheer mindfulness meditation. Anyway, I'd like to point out a major logical fallacy in your description of awareness and the Self. You write that the YOU has been tricked into identification by society, parents and other people from birth. Going along with your assumptions, this is clearly a logical fallacy: since those people are part of the Self itself, or only exist within the awareness, how can they have convinced the Self or the awareness to identify with a portion of awareness itself, (the limited YOU that's often associated with body/the Voice etc), when there was no distinction to begin with? It's clearly recursive thinking with flawed premises. If you want your audience to understand this conceptually, it makes more sense to simply say that the Self experiences itself through a multitude of specific individual ways, and YOU are just an option. Not that other people such as your mom and dad, or teachers have pushed YOU to misidentify yourself. Since they are also YOU. They didn't exist independently from YOU which would be required in order to convince YOU that you are who you mistakenly think you are. Thanks for initiating this thread, and best of luck with all the work with Actualized.org