Matt23

Maybe, instead of seeing in terms comparing yourself to others and how much "further" others might seem, instead, maybe think of it like this: would I rather fill my time doing something I love or doing something I don't? Even if you were the least skilled person in your field, but loved doing it, that alone might be enough justification and reason to pursue it. Compare yourself to yourself. Being the best might seem like it's what gives fulfillment, but this might be illusory. Even the least skilled or beginners in a certain field might feel equally as satisfied with what they do as with professionals who've been doing it for 40 years.

Does anyone have any good resources, methods, or insights regarding negotiating values conflicts in closer relationships (though, not necessarily imitate relationships)? I'm living with a guy, and we're becoming more comfortable and closer with each other, but the other night he said he rides his bike on off-limits trails which are designed to protect the environment. Nature is one of my top values and I felt like he betrayed it. I'm sure the right thing to do is to confront him on it since it's causing me to be inauthentic and tense around him, but I'd like to get some different professional and well-tested methods in doing so. Thanks

I agree. I think the issue was mostly in me not being honest about how I feel in the relationship and then bidding it due to fear. I've had these situations come up before and each time I usually put off dealing with it and I end up suffering more as a result. It's like I know the right thing to do is to at least simply tell him what I feel and believe and yes, even state why I believe that. Then he can do as he will and I will have to act accordingly. So perhaps confrontation was the wrong choice of words. I think a better would to express how I felt in relation to what he did/said. I did this today and I immediately felt way better and more honest and authentic. I said how I felt, what he did, and what over at will happen. Instill feel I wasn't totally honest in some way but this was a great start. It's like now, at least for me, there's more respect and understanding and appreciation. Maybe more self-respect for standing up for my own values. It feels nice. It seemed, from my end, to be an amiable, honest, discussion. If he doesn't pay as much value to something than I do, that's ok. But it doesn't mean I should stay in that relationship. It's up to me to decide how I should then relate to him/others in a way where I'm not disregarding my own values to simply "keep thevpeace" or relationship. Something which I've done lots of in the past. Something where I've felt guilty for having pain from values that have been crossed, causing me to lower my own self-esteem and self since I didn't think I or my values were valid. I put others first and didn't say when I was hurt and didn't value the same things. Resulting in me not honoring my own authentic values and self.

A further couple of questions potentially worth pondering: - Are sub-selves within each person at various levels on the spiral or does spiral dynamics include those sub-selves (or sub-personalities) when it distinguishes between stages? Put another way, do higher stages have less sub-personalities since they are more integrated? - Is neurosis a sign of stage (particularly lower stages), or do higher stages have "higher" neuroses? If neuroses are signs of stages, when people of higher stages display neuroses, are they temporarily moving back down to lower stages? This could also tie into sub-personalities being activated at certain times and, if a particular one isn't as developed as the majority of the rest, it bringing down that person to a lower stage for a time.

@SoothedByRain After reading this post and the Greuger theory of development, I think a large part of me is hovering around the "Self-Oppressed" version of stage Red. Addictions have played a large role in my life. Though, maybe simply on certain lines of development. Thanks for the info.

I still haven't finished it (am about 2/3 of the way through). I often wonder why Leo put it on his book list. It seems to me like there's a lot of nonsense in it. It's like every chapter is Paramhansa (the author) telling some story about miracles he's encountered or heard of. Like people levitating, teleporting, knowing the future, and even one guy he encountered who could create any fragrance requested. He also tries to explain these mystical experiences using a mixture of religious, mystical, and scientific language and concepts. But it seems like a pretty big stretch with not a lot of backup to it. I'm struggling to find any benefit from it since it seems to be mostly made up. There are a few bits of wisdom and history that were interesting and noteworthy. But few and far between. Maybe I'm not seeing the inspiration that others see in it. Hard to distinguish what's fact and fiction. I'm interested to hear if anyone has any different opinions (or same too). I'm also still not done so maybe I'll change my mind. Overall: 4.5/10

I remember hearing Leo give some guidelines in picking Omega 3's as some have high mercury and are of low quality. He also mentioned krill oil instead of fish. Does anyone have any opinions or further knowledge about picking a high-quality (low mercury/heavy metals fosho) Omega 3? Thanks

@Leo Gura...(or anyone else) [FYI this post is kind of off topic]. Do you or anyone else have any advice or resources if someone is hovering around the Purple/Red area of the spiral? It's a general question I know (especially considering the different lines of development), but I guess I want more clarity as to my position on the spiral. Would doing more of a certain type of personal development be more appropriate for growth at certain stages than others (e.g., shadow work, more social types of work, different modes of therapy, to psychedelic or to not psychedelic, etc.)?

Thanks for the input. Both replies make sense to me. Both hard in their own way. @tastefullyoverdone that's really courageous. I tried doing that a year or so ago. But I ended up crashing. I find it's hard to sometimes tell what's an authentic and healthy impulse and what's not. Fear obviously influences a lot.

How do you guys handle being around others (in this case, Family) where it feels like they don't fully have the same interest, passion, enthusiasm, are desire to share in the passion you have? I feel often that when I want to talk about these things with others that I feel they listen, but only in a "sort of" way and don't really want to talk about the things I want to be involved in. I feel a little like I'm not being genuine to myself, and that I have to "force" or "push" to make them talk about it, which I seems a little rash and not the best way to being them around. This reminds me of how Rupert Spira handles his relationship with his son. He apparently has never even talked about spiritual concepts to his son since his son didn't ask. On the other hand, in Leo's life purpose course he talks about how expressing passion with others will pass on to them. How that, if they're not supportive, then questioning the relationship is in order. Have you guys come across these issues? How do you feel/think is the best way to handle them? How have you handled them in the past and how has it turned out? Cheers.

Could this be an explanation why some people seem to behave in higher levels of the spiral, and then suddenly act out? As if they'd been hiding a more basic stage and then it lashes out? Like a "closet" stage hidden since they sense it wouldn't be socially acceptable to be it?

This is from an experience I had contemplating in the forest after smoking half a bowl of weed. Posting this was inspired by a video I watched of Mooji several days later. Cannabis: Blue Dream Sativa I am not a regular smoker. In the past month I've smoked 4/5 times, which is more than I've ever smoked in my adult life. I smoked outside and then went walking in the forest. I see that it's all belief on my side. I don't know what these people are talking about. I've never had any of these experiences. I don't know if they're jokers, crazy, or ignorant. And to what degree? I felt scared to doubt it all. Like I'd lose what love and connection I've felt from a supposed God or Infinity to something away from Truth. Like my skepticism is leading me away from it and further into It's funny because, in the video, a women asked Mooji whether her feelings of profound connectedness she was having was from the ego or not. Mooji said "Yes. But in a healthy and Sattvic way. A way that's coming from a higher consciousness that's close to Truth." This reminded me of the experience I had recently which was the moment I started to really realize how much I'm believing in all spirituality and non-duality. I smoked some weed and walked out in the forest. I thought about death and thought "What would I feel and think about if I new I would die soon?". At the start I thought maybe I would think I haven't made the most of my life. Though, that thought started to feel less true, or not totally true. I ended up looking up at the sky and realizing, or thinking, that I would feel like I didn't totally accept God's or reality's unconditional love totally. I felt the love. Love. I felt like i wanted to keep it, to open up more and connect with it more. To do whatever I could to allow it to enter. Even if I had to believe. I felt the love, partially, but it was there. I wanted to keep that feeling going. To open up more to it. It was here that another part of me, the skeptic and critical thinker, started to join in. I realized that these were personal feelings. Coming from me. I didn't know if they were coming from any God or Infinite universe. That all I had about non-duality and God were beliefs. That I was actually projecting a feeling I was having, or getting, from an image-thought of a Cosmic being into the sky where I was looking. When I thought critically about it the loving feeling went away. It seemed like a materialist worldview was involved now, but the feelings are gone. I noticed, and notice, I still want the feelings to come back, but can't know for sure if they're true or not. Or even what they mean. I also remember realizing I've been wanting and believing there to be a benevolent consciousness in the universe that wants me to be ok and look out for me. I saw it as a belief. I guess I'm torn between following and trusting this feelings of love and opening to it or being skeptical and critical about it. Intuitive-feeling versus critical-skepticism. In terms of Myer's Briggs, I'm a feeling type. I like to use intuition and feelings. Critical thinking and openmindedness is also one of my top 5 strengths on Clifton Strength's assessment (I'd recommend it). I don't know what to do at the moment. I feel torn between opening to the Love. I feel like the wise thing to do would be to notice them as beliefs. to go for Truth, whatever it is. I think my biggest struggle is that I'm scared of letting go of these feelings for Truth. That I may be moving away from Truth. That somehow, I might hurt myself or be worse off if I go with identifying the beliefs I have as beliefs and going to a more materialist worldview.... resulting in me, perhaps, feelings less "connected" or love or something. I'm not sure. Any thoughts are appreciated.

It probably depends on each person's current conditions and development. For me, I can say that I need socializing at this moment more than meditation since I've had huge obstacles to it and have neglected it for a long time. That doesn't mean to not meditate. For me, it means simply not devoting as much time to spirituality and studying and making more room for socializing. I get really depressed and anxious if I'm not with other people at the moment. So, I plan on developing more social connections. Perhaps further down the road I'll outgrow those too and go back to more solitary things, except, hopefully, in a healthier way.

@Zigzag Idiot This really reminds me of Cook-Greuter's paper Leo put on his blog (https://www.actualized.org/insights?p=4). It's a developmental model. In it she discusses what she calls the "Opportunist" stage 2/3; which has a further distinction between "opportunistic" and "self-protective." The next stage after this is called the "Diplomat", which to me resembles stage Blue significantly. It seems like these two examples are describing the same thing.

Has anyone read the SD books? There's probably more info in there about lower stages, etc. If you have, could you give a brief description and opinion? Thanks

Though, it might help for the business side of things. The certification process may also cover things you didn't know or consider before. Like stats on benefits, slightly new techniques, new analogies for understanding, teaching and public speaking skills, learning styles of people you teach, ethics, how to organize your teaching, how to help people with specific issues and how to know what issues are what, etc. Being a teacher could be a very different experience than meditating on your own, and require a handful of other skills and knowledge needed to do it effectively, ethically, and enjoyably. Similar to a university professor who's brilliant in their field, but awful at teaching people. People can be 20 year meditators, but still be terrible at teaching. Though, personal experience would be one of the first things I'd want in a meditation teacher. That, and then knowing they have a solid theoretical foundation (from a school, spiritual tradition, etc.). Depending on who the person was, I think I would generally feel more comfortable with someone who had a relatively large conceptual knowledge base to house explain and house experiences and techniques they were teaching.

George Leonard discusses homeostasis in his book "Mastery". He suggests several different way to work with it. "Negotiate" with it. Don't bull your way through it, nor completely let it over take you. Develop a positive social network of support. Develop a regular daily routine. Dedicate yourself to life long learning. Be aware of how homeostasis works. Perhaps also ask why your doing these behaviors. What survival function are the behaviors serving? What aspect of yourself are they trying to survive?

Ah haha makes sense Thanks I dunno. A beautiful one!

I've heard that B12 vitamins are important if one is doing a vegetarian diet. Has anyone done a lot of research about this? Is it valid? What's been your experience?

@pluto Do you mean to say "Don't buy into the nonsense that we absorb B12 from meat?" If not, why would the meat and dairy industries fund those studies since it would give people incentive to eat more plants, not meat or dairy? Thanks for the info and opinions.

Trauma and limiting beliefs are either in you or not. They will also always exist in the present moment. So it seems almost irrelevant if they come from the past or not. We can either believe our memories or theories, but it seems t0 end there; with beliefs. To me what seems most relevant is if you're able to work with what's affecting you right now, which might take the form of a negative thought, or a painful memory, or a feeling, etc. Speculating about where they originated might be an interesting exercise, and may even offer relief by creating some meaning, compassion, and even a clue as to where yo look. But I can also see it as a potential dead end. Where speculating about the origins of a pain eclipses efforts to deal with, work through, or heal what's occurring at that moment.

What is his approach to growth and trauma etc?

Tripping balls?....hmmm...perhaps. The first thing I think of is "how is he interpreting the findings?" I'm also aware of the attachment to the idea of how childhood traumas affect adult life in me (and I presume others) which may distort things. Also, how beliefs "catch on" and then act as filters for how we see things. Personally I feel like it's probably true that childhood traumas affect adults. But this article also raises doubt about that. Perhaps I've been attaching too much importance on childhood. For me, I can see how it can act as a nice story to perpetuate a victim mentality or even simply give an explanation. Childhood may be hard to ignore especially if we belief it's where the answers lie. But it could actually be significant. This is also a stance I've not come across much. So it kind of flies in the face of a lot of what I've been doing and researching.... As Ken Wilber said "We still don't know why people grow."

That last video, the guy around 1:04:00 talks about how the idea that I have something called consciousness which, through various practices, can be raised is just another story. Just like Christianity. ...I thought that was a new perspective I haven't heard in a while. Versus people like Leo, Ken Wilber, and other schools which are all about raising levels of consciousness.

I've done a little shamanic breathing as described by Leo. With the longest session being about 20 minutes. I recently went to a woman who holds space for breath work for two hours (I didn't do the actual breath work for two hours straight.). Lots of tears, tensions, sensations, visions and the sort. Before I tell the story I want to give some background information. I was born in Campbell River on Vancouver Island on the West coast of Canada. The area I'm in has a deep history of native cultures. I think the province I'm in (B.C.) has the most native cultures in it that any other in the country. For some reason, ever since I was little I can remember having this heart connection with indigenous people and had an urge to connect and be with them. This theme seems to pop up throughout my life: whenever I hear native drumming or singing I get goosebumps and tear up, I love to dance like Native Americans, and I feel such empathy and pain for them when learning about residential schools and the torture they went through from the Europeans. So, one of the most vivid and interesting events in the breath work session was when I was doing the breathing and then a song came on with native sounding drumming. At that moment I envisioned a tee-pee with native style art work inside it. I looked outside and saw a small tee-pee village and trees and hills. I immediately felt my heart well-up and I started to bawl. I also remember repeating the word "Mother", as if my heart was calling that name. Strangely, whenever I imagined a native person my heart closed. This could be from my own current racism I haven't processed yet. I'm not sure. When the tears started to subside I said "I'm native" to the lady who was holding the session. I felt like the connection and heart were true. Yet I also felt confused and unsure about what happened since I don't have any native blood (as far as I know) and wasn't raised in a native family. The first thing I thought of was past lives. Has anyone else had similar experiences? What do you guys think about this?