hundreth

Obviously Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state shoved down their throats who is hostile and dangerous. There are other more selfish reasons from more fringe groups, but that is the main one. The pro Palestinian voices have their holy trinity of get out of jail cards: - They did a "peaceful" protest at the border once, and violence ensued. Therefore being peaceful doesn't work. - They updated their charter. - Nat Turner These arguments are tired and bad faith.

This isn't about "worthiness." The Palestinians can literally do whatever they want and achieve statehood, EXCEPT for initiating attacks and firing rockets at Israel. That's how low the bar is set. International law and rights will always take a back seat when survival is at stake. As I said earlier, you have it backwards for this reason. The reason you need peace as a starting point is very simple. You need to know that the moment you grant what they wish for, they won't turn around and kill you. It's not about worthiness, it's about building trust.

How are you going to conflate 2024 with the late 90s and early 2000s? Obviously, circumstances have changed.

The first one, yes. The second one I'm not sure. For one, the Lebanese are the ones who perpetuated it with Israeli intelligence and weaponry. Also, the main motivation was to root out the PLO. Anyways this one seems multi faceted. The first one is clearly a form of terrorism because the intention was deterrence via retribution on civilians from a previous attack.

There is no negotiating with Hamas. Both of them greenlit October 7th, they are dead men walking. Justice to Palestinians is the complete elimination of Israel. By that metric, there is no path forward. That is the reality of the situation. You can't really apply what happened in South Africa here. Israel has attempted to move towards two states, and was met with bad faith and attacks. They attempted to leave Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas and attacks. No good deed goes unpunished with the Palestinians. And so, with this toxic relationship you see what unfolds.

I don't dispute that, and wasn't mean to say their are "inherently" different - but the condition now is what I said. The society's highest moral virtue is the elimination of Israel.

Oh the charter, the beloved reformed charter. I guess all of their words, actions and teachings are meaningless then because they updated language in their charter.

Yes, there are several surrounding nations with similar spiral stages who are at peace with Israel. The Palestinians are different. Before October 7, Gazans had a higher quality of life index than citizens of Cairo. Their highest value and national identity is the rejection of Israel. There's nothing you can do about that.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/pa-has-only-itself-blame Many of you don't really have a clue as to who Israel's supposed peace partners are. You project your own values onto them, and in doing so escape reality.

Another good interview from an Israeli perspective which differs from Gadi Taub who I posted earlier. He is not nearly as opportunistic in terms of war mongering and land grabbing, but shares the same framework of reality around the challenges facing Israel.

This is a really great interview which explains some of the realities of the region as well as the Israeli rationale and how they reached this point. I don't agree with everything he says, but this gives a window into the thought process at the highest levels of Israeli leadership as well as the population at large. Some of you had questions about how and why Israel behaves the way it does, and I think he does a very good job of explaining it.

Israelis live well because that's their priority, living well. Palestinians have prioritized justice and the elimination of Jews over their well being, and the results show. Palestinians receive billions in aid, and have utilized almost none of it for their well being. That isn't because of Israel. The irony is that if Palestinians took the money and invested into the population at large, Israelis wouldn't be so paranoid about giving them statehood. Palestinians have it backwards - If we get a state and our demands met, there will be peace. What really would work is: If there is peace, you will have a state and get your demands met. Btw Gaza has had the same beautiful beach, and has weed and parties as well.

https://nypost.com/2024/08/05/world-news/un-admits-nine-unrwa-staffers-may-have-been-involved-in-oct-7-attack-on-israel/ “For us, any participation in the attacks is a tremendous betrayal of the sort of work that we are supposed to be doing on behalf of the Palestinian people,” Haq said. The suspected terror collaborators, all men, will be fired, the agency said — without identifying the suspects or detailing what atrocities they may have participated in. Embattled UNRWA Commissioner General Philippe Lazzarini, who previously slammed the US and other nations who halted donations to the humanitarian group after the allegations against its employees, agreed to boot the nine employees cited in the UN report. “I have decided that in the case of these remaining nine staff members, they cannot work for UNRWA,” Lazzarini said in a statement.

The issue with your deterministic view of the Palestinian response is that you apply it selectively only to them. It seems environment, upbringing and surroundings don't apply to Israelis - so it's fine to moralize their actions. You aren't allowed to judge anything Palestinians do though, they are the only ones who lack free will. I don't know if you literally wanted to apply impoverishment to this situation, but given there are many surrounding wealthy nations who promote similar extremist views and philosophies I don't think wealth is main factor here.

Someone has been binging Norman Finkelstein content and regurgitating his talking points.

Yes, I would.

A couple of things: 1.) Do you really believe that Hamas doesn't promote extremely harmful and anti-semitic views about Jews as a whole? You only need to look at what they teach their youth to disavow you from that. Re: the updated charter, if you're going to point out Israeli government dishonesty, you should be able to do the same for Hamas.They updated their text, yet teach exactly the same rhetoric to their youth, and behave in exactly the same ways - it doesn't mean anything. 2.) The Israelis have their responsibility in terms of allowing the attack to happen, but that doesn't absolve Hamas. So if Hamas attempted Oct 7th and were thwarted, does that absolve them? This is silly. 3.) Re: Number 1 priority - the return of the hostage is NOT the number one priority. You keep ignoring Leo's main point about future security. There may be more attacks in the future, but one thing is clear now: If you give the green light to an operation like Oct 7th, you've signed your death certificate. If you're ok with that, go ahead.

I did not do a deep dive but I did watch the video and commentary about snipers shooting children. Obviously, if an Israeli soldier intentionally shot a child in the head who was not a threat. That would be a war crime. Has some blood crazed Israeli soldier done such a thing? Of course, I have to believe they're out there. But I think the larger question is if this is a systemic policy put forward. Because the implication is that it is. We don't know for all of the instances what happened before the bullet left the chamber. Was this child armed? Was this a stray? Was this child in the middle of an active combat skirmish between IDF and Hamas? You'd have to look into each situation, and it's extremely hard to do so. I think if it comes out that commanders instructed soldiers to behave this way, we have a serious problem. Otherwise, it's going to be a messy affair trying to sort out what is what. The end result is equally tragic.

I believe this is half true. For one, we often speak of the Palestinian response as purely deterministic - with literally no other option for how to proceed. We give the Palestinians zero agency. I don't believe this to be the case. Hamas is not just a product of Israel, but a distinct entity with it's own agenda which harms both Israelis and Palestinians. It's philosophies and motives are consistent with other extremist movements in the region. At some point we also need to recognize the role of Islamic extremism. You can't simply bury your head in the sand and pretend this is 100% on Israel. Second, history has shown that the Palestinians have not and will not be satisfied with any arrangement that does not see 100% of the region returned to them. This is the overarching motive for both Hamas and Hezbollah. It is also the major reason why the peace talks faltered and did not continue. It is easy to blame the entire failure on Israel's security demands, but throughout negotiations you need to continue pushing. You need both sides present. Now, as a result of those failures Israelis have shifted towards the same 100% expectations. It seems Israel is now content with a split Palestinian leadership, settlement expansion, and a slow deterioration of the Palestinian movement. It is really sad, and I think we both recognize how irreconcilable the situation is. I just don't see it quite as black and white as you do.

I was speaking about Israel letting up, not Hamas. I agree with you otherwise. Neither side has real incentive for the war to end. The ceasefire talks are mostly political theater.

Israel's goal from the start has never been de-escalation and a ceasefire, it was the elimination of Hamas. From that lens, everything checks out. The only ceasefires Israel has been serious about are either temporary, or with the full release of the hostages and no other conditions. This will never happen. The only remaining question is how many more Hamas leaders will Israel take out before it decides it's time to let up.

Yes, Iran and all of it's proxies including Hezbollah are for the destruction of Israel. This whole idea that Hezbollah and other proxies could take out Tel Aviv, but are showing restraint is comical. If Iran or any of it's proxies had the means to destroy Israel tomorrow, they would push the button immediately. Having x number of missiles is meaningless. Iran especially embarrassed itself with it's last missile attempt. They blew their entire load to make a spectacle, and achieved nothing. Meanwhile, Israel has known exactly where the Hamas / Hezbollah leaders have been and waited until confrontation / strategic moments to strike.

This is super interesting... and a stark contrast to what you see represented all the time regarding Israeli society.

It's just the reality. If Hezbollah wanted to truly harm Israel they would have to leave their caves. Nasrallah has already made it clear he doesn't want to do that. In fact, he's probably shitting bricks right now after seeing his right hand man get wacked.