hundreth

Your oversimplification of things aside, doesn't have to do with my point - which is that there is a characterization of Hezbollah as some kind of defensive force against Israeli expansion, when Israel never has had any expansionist goals around Lebanon.

It's worth noting that while the Israelis were in Lebanon, this had nothing to do with expansionism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_Southern_Lebanon So really, the Israelis were involved in Lebanon because Palestinians were using Southern Lebanon as an attack outpost. Now the PLO isn't around, but Hezbollah essentially took their place.

He makes good points, but one thing is clear: Every single group involved in this conflict is blame shifting. Unfortunately our greatest problem is holding ourselves accountable.

I don't think these are effective talking points, as you don't need to have similar values to have compassion for others and the value of life. That said, these green thinkers have overcorrected on much of this and run with the West is bad, America is bad, Israel is bad blanket mentality and don't hold the other side accountable for anything.

I understand this perspective and there's truth to it, for sure. I think you're discounting what a burden Hezbollah has been to northern Israel and it's hard to Imagine a comparable scenario in the U.S. Let's just say we would have a very strong response. When the U.S. gets involved in Middle Eastern affairs and then gets attacked as a result, we say well fair enough - we meddled and now we are part of the war. The same has happened to Lebanon. This is a conflict between Israel and Hamas. Hezbollah involved themselves, now they are part of the war. Israel isn't going to leave Gaza and agree to a ceasefire until Hamas is no longer the dominating force there. So Hezbollah's involvement isn't going to stop Israel, it is another pointless skirmish leading to additional turmoil. Will Israel's latest attacks push Hezbollah back? I don't know. We'll see if it achieves anything. It's possible you are right and instead of helping the situation in the North, we will be pushed deeper into a regional war. I wouldn't put it past many in Israeli leadership to make the wrong call there.

I don't really understand how this is considered indiscriminate when it's literally as surgical as you can get in terms of reaching Hezbollah members. Of course there will be some civilian casualties, but what methods are there to hurt a guerrilla warfare organization? "That's what the military is for"... so should the IDF do more Gaza style airstrikes and ground invasions? Would that be preferable? There's literally no way to fight these groups without everyone crying foul. Please, tell us one way Israel can legitimately kill ONLY Hezbollah members without harming civilians that is satisfactory for you. War isn't what it used to be, there is no scenario where the IDF and Hezbollah or Hamas will engage in classic warfare. This is what it has come to. And as a Jew, I'm not going to be apologetic for using what tactics are available to us. We don't see the same outrage when Hezbollah literally fires rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. "Oh but the Iron dome..." - ok the same Iron dome that these same voices cry about the U.S. helping with. And if that didn't exist, it certainly wouldn't have stopped them.

https://nypost.com/2024/09/18/world-news/hezbollahs-handheld-radios-explode-in-second-wave-of-remote-detonated-attacks-on-terror-group/ Round two.

The part that isn't true is that she is the first and only report of a death. It's just selectively using information to create a narrative.

Here comes the spin... attack which surgically targets hezbollah militants -> "first confirmed death: 10 year old girl" Which isn't even true. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hezbollah-member-son-of-terror-group-mp-said-killed-in-pager-explosion-girl-also-killed/

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/dozens-hezbollah-members-wounded-lebanon-when-pagers-exploded-sources-witnesses-2024-09-17/ Hezbollah's testicles are exploding.

This is good advice. The universe did you a favor. Rejoice.

Israeli propaganda punches above its weight class given the number of Jews - but is outdated, misdirected and easy to spot. Palestinian / Qatari propaganda is more well obfuscated, having aligned themselves with academics and the funding of universities. Its a very natural friendship, where western academics who are already experts in white colonialism, systemic racism, oppressor vs oppressed narratives take this conflict and pigeonhole it. Where this framing can be somewhat useful in understanding, they've run wild with extremist interpretations that rationalize terrorist attacks, blame Israel 100% for everything, use context selectively for Palestinians but not Jews, rewrite basic history related to two state negotiations, etc. In the long run, the Qataris have bet on the right horse, as their propaganda targets the youth and next generations. Israeli propaganda targets the old. These two schools don't really clash, as there's no university where these ideas are tackled from a non emotional lens. At these universities where Jews have been labeled as white oppressors, there's not much constructive dialogue which can happen. Jews also have influence in universities, but its mostly in the form of anti-semitism watch dogs. While there's tons of anti-semitism on campuses, this can't be the only substantive push back, and Americans have mostly become desensitized to the term after its overuse. https://airmail.news/issues/2024-6-1/when-your-teacher-is-qatar

Some Jews and Israelis have lost the plot and it is sad to see.

Very true. Israeli propaganda is there, but if you're wondering how we've gotten to the point where we say things like: "Terrorist attacks are the only option Palestinians have." - that's why. The brainwashing is real. Stop. Rationalizing. Terrorist. Attacks.

There's many interpretations of what happened, but at the same time the formation of Israel is so over scrutinized on a level no other nation is. This constant attempt to delegitimatize Israel only fuels the fires and leads to more unrest. People become resentful, call Israelis western names like colonizers, etc... and then the Palestinians are emboldened to shoot for full river to the sea. Sure, the perspective of the Palestinians and the Nakba was underrepresented for some time. At this point, this constant history on trial really serves no purpose. I've said several times what I think would drive progress. From Israel's side, moving away from the Likud and going back to more moderate times. Israel should stop expanding while focusing more on defending their civilians. Palestinians and Gaza especially should take the aid money and constructively use them to the benefit of their people. They should elect new leaders who are focused on progress and integration. Good leadership would unite both Gaza and the West Bank, then there would be an actual negotiation partner, and the priority of Palestinian society will shift from Israel hate towards life. They will actually have something to lose. Protesting and violence isn't going to achieve anything. Each time they do a terrorist attack, Israel retaliates and does irreversible damage to the Palestinian cause. They aren't helping themselves.

I think it was a lot of things, not just we were here 3000 years ago. Most of it is just historical context. Post WW2 Jews immigrated there en masse after being unwelcome in Europe (understatement.) The British happened to be in control of the area, the Jews who fought with the British made a deal with them, and then the UN followed suit. Would the same thing have happened today? No. Is it moral to continue expanding? I don't believe so. I think what already is in place is what is there and you can't go back now. Unfortunately the Palestinians got dealt a bad hand in all this, and to compound the issue they also played their hand badly. It's sad, but I'd rather focus on moving forward and finding a way to coexist.

That's not a lie. It's the truth. The topic of DNA and descendants came up in the last Israel thread and it was addressed there. Directly to you in fact who was making the same claims. There is tons of evidence showing the lineage between biblical Jews and even the modern European Jews. I won't bother posting it again, because you will ignore it again. But that's besides the point, because you don't have an answer for what would constitute being a descendant. There is no answer you would accept. It's just a point you like to make, that they aren't, because that's the story that fits your narrative better.

When push came to shove Arafat said no, every time. He didn't make any counter proposals. This is well documented. No matter what spin you try to put on it, Arafat is the main reason the two state negotiations failed. Hamas operates within Gaza and is confined there. Obviously they attack Israel. How are they going to attack Jews outside of Israel? This makes no sense. You make it seem like Hamas is using restraint lol. I don't know much about the Likud charter but if that's true then wage war against the Likud, not Israeli civilians. Notice how Israel explicitly states they are at war with Hamas. The name of this war is the Israel-Hamas war... not the Israel-Palestine war. If the aid money isn't enough, then make a case for that by actually using it. This isn't about how much aid money, it's about the priorities of the region. There is no amount of aid money you can give Gaza to make their lives better. Literally name any amount of money, and it will be funneled into Hamas tunnels and rockets. The UN cannot change that simple reality. As I said earlier, Arafat is to blame for the two state negotiations breaking down. Hamas is not capable of negotiating a two state solution on behalf of the Palestinians. They don't have that authority. They don't represent the will of the Palestinians nor the Israelis.

Which claim isn't based on truth? How much DNA should an exiled people have to their homeland for it to be truth that it is their homeland? And who is to say a different location wouldn't have had it's own set of issues? You could have been talking about a Ugandan Israeli genocide right now, so I never understood this line of argument.

By what metric? Those biblical Jews were exiled from the region and kept a religious tradition for thousands of years which revolves around Israel. How much more related can you get? Literally their entire worldview revolves around Israel and maintaining a connection to those biblical tribes, yet now they're "barely related."

Israel's objective has never been to destroy Palestinians. They moved towards a two state solution and were rejected. Now Israeli society has shifted to more aggressive motivations. If Palestinians believe this is an existential threat, they can attack the Israel government - not the civilians. That's the major crux of the issue. Hamas doesn't differentiate, they kill whatever they can kill. There isn't a military objective. It's just to kill Jews. I don't know why you think this matters. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose objective is to destroy Israel. There can never be peace with them. You just won't accept this reality. The PLO is not what you think they are. The Palestinians do have alternatives. They can take the billions of aid money they receive and use them to better their lives and develop the areas under their control. That's the tragedy of the situation. If Palestinians valued their people's well being over the destruction of Jews and Israel, they would immediately have better lives and a clear roadmap to peace. Israel and the surrounding nations would be exponentially less afraid of a state who's priorities are on their own well being over destruction. It's so unfortunate that anti Israel voices have determined that the Palestinian people's path lies solely in the hands of Israel and Jews. That they have no agency. That there are no alternatives but to kill Jews. That everything is 100% Israel's fault. That Hamas is an inevitability. All of this is nonsense. And so instead of helping Palestinians help themselves, these Pro Palestinians help them drag Israel through the mud and rationalize terrorist attacks.

Lol.

I'm assuming you meant even if Israel would be less safe... In which case that's absurd. This isn't an "in case" - it's clear cut intentions they don't even remotely try to hide. I'm not saying that Israel should destroy an entire civilian population, but they should absolutely go after groups that are outright hostile to their existence. That is reasonable. When there are groups whose entire purpose is to eliminate you, the priorities change. It is unfortunately the same chicken and egg debate we've always had here. Anti Israel voices believe that if Israel gave Palestinians whatever they want, there would be peace. Israelis don't buy that for a second. The classic question. State before peace or peace before state? I believe statehood will always be impossible until there is a culture shift in Palestinian culture as well as the greater Muslim world. Israel will never put their survival at stake with blind trust in groups who hate you and want to kill you. With that said, Israel hasn't done themselves any favors in terms of fostering good will and giving them a reason to shift.

And yet you didn't really disprove what he said. He said the majority of the Israeli government isn't religious, which is true. You cherry picked. Then as a counter to what he said about most Arab nations, you referenced Qatar, which is one of the more moderate nations that Israel actually has good relations with. More cherry picking.