hundreth

I can't stand Alan Dershowitz and feel like he's doing a great disservice by involving himself.

You believe Israel wants to conquer all Arab / Muslim land? The truth is this ongoing war empowers the worst sheisters in society to gain an edge and influence. I never even heard of "Greater Israel" once until October 7. The war fuels extremism.

It isn't about fighting Israel, but more about the idea of Arab / Muslim land as opposed to Jewish. Unfortunately I'm struggling to understand what you're saying here. My point was related to the Palestinians being forcefully classified as a different entity. What do the 400 million believe about this? And why? And what makes you think you know what's best? You seem to be very opinionated about the fact that endless resistance is their best course. I don't expect anything from you. I think it's natural most will side the Palestinians on the matter as the original aggression was against them. And of course the injustice troubles me, so as I wrestle with it I consider different trains of thought here. I'd like to see the Palestinians do well, and have the least amount of bloodshed altogether for all involved. And what do you believe this understanding will do? Is this revenge against an Israeli mother going to make her more sympathetic to the Palestinians? Or do you just want there to be pain? Why? And is this 18 year old soldier who lost his life the real problem? Btw I believe the same about the young Hamas combatants. All of the combatants are victims of circumstance. If they were each born on the other side, they would likely fight for the other side. I'm playing no victim, as I laid out both possibilities with an endless resistance. I do think it is more likely the Palestinians are wiped out, but it is completely possible the Jews are as well. It is only a matter of time until Iran obtains nuclear weapons. Really anything can happen on a long enough timeline.

I think given the alternatives, it is the most reasonable. Are European Jews and Middle Eastern Jews the "same entity?" - probably even further apart than the Palestinians and other Arabs. They are together now because it is practical. The alternative is one side wins. Maybe "your" side wins, and justice is served. I'm guessing this applies more to @royce than yourself, who is happy to see dead Zionists. Ok great, now all of the Jews are wiped out from the area. Will this extermination be justice? Will a fight to the death where Palestinians are exiled be justice? This is the reality, and given that reality I believe it is "logical." It may not be idealistic, but it is logical.

It isn't the whole picture, but if you're capable of holding two truths at once there is something there. Of course this doesn't take away from the plight of the Palestinians and isn't justification for land theft. It's just that at the end of the day, what's done is done. The Jews are there now. Much like how the Jews were exiled from land to land over the years, even as recently as post 1948, the Palestinians have essentially been exiled. It is not their fault, but this is what happened. In the case of the Jews, Israel has taken in most of these refugees, and life goes on. In the case of the Palestinians, a conceptual division was created between them and the rest of the Muslim / Arab world - and thus life for them cannot go on. They must fight to the death for lines on a map. Where does this fight to the death lead? To death. There will not be a two state solution. There won't be a state within a state where is a tunnel linking one side of Palestine to the other. There won't be a one state solution where a population war ensues and constant conflict. The end result is the exile of the Palestinians one way or the other. And if not, then the extermination of the Jews living there now. In either scenario, it's not good. With all the money and resources spent on this never ending war, and all the lives lost - these Palestinians could all have been multi millionaires living somewhere else. Now of course not everything is about money, but life goes on. Life isn't about lines on a map either.

Sometimes it's worth zooming out just a little.

To be fair, Israel has had major wars with multiple Arab / Muslim nations attacking them at once with the goal of their extermination. This occurred while Gaza / West Bank were not in their control. This is a valid concern. It's hard to say how much the landscape has changed and what is true today, but this all happened basically yesterday.

@Nivsch's point is that without the Jewish majority the votes will inevitably lead to non western values. Which seems true. If votes are determining policy, that will be the result.

I think @Some dude on the net's commentary is relevant and prescient given that the primary discourse related to Israel / US relations is that Israel manipulates the US into giving them what they want, when it's really a two way street and alliance. I've said it a long time ago, Israel is a proxy state of the US. Israel is doing the dirty work for the US, and American society is convinced our leadership are dumb and naive lemmings. The US leadership is full of ruthless wolves in sheep clothing pushing forward with Israel's campaign. Many of you sound perplexed as to why the US does this, or doesn't do that. But when you view it with this frame, the whole thing makes so much more sense and many of these contradictions collapse.

In this scenario, is the US also going to force the Palestinians hand?

And yet, everything he said is also true. Which makes it especially toxic. This is amazingly insightful, but shows how hopeless the situation is. At the end of the day neither side will accept a two state solution and this is a war between two people who believe the land is theirs.

I watched that and agree. I wonder how many lives will be lost in the name of Israeli expansionist policies. Yet I also wonder, how many lives will be lost in the name of justice? A quest for revenge and justice can be self destructive. There are many instances in our own lives where we must experience a loss and move on for our own well being. This has happened to me in scorned relationships, business partnerships, etc. If I were to go on a quest of revenge, I would harm myself in the process. Israel will have to face its own karma for its actions. This will likely be in the form of the nation being run by far right extremists, war hawks, and religious fundamentalists who drag down the culture and prosperity of the nation. Watching the video Leo posted about the origins of Zionism was very interesting because it really highlighted just how rooted it is in anti-semitism. This idea that Jews can never assimilate into another nation, and this was adopted and utilized by both Christians and Jews to advance this. In a response to anti-semitism, Herzl commented that "might makes right" - and this is the policy we still adopt to this day.

I think if you followed the chain it was acknowledged both are wrong. Your evolution on this topic has been interesting. A few weeks ago you wrote that Pro Palestinians needed a "smack to the head with a broomstick." Now you've gone past them in your anti Israel fervor.

Oh I agree with you, just saying even if that's the interpretation you take and want to blame it all on Israel it doesn't make it those Jews fault who were living in Iraq and all the other surrounding Arab countries. But of course, it was never that simple.

This may be a cynical viewpoint, but the current status quo is destroying both Israel and the Palestinians. Israel on it's current course is destroying both the Palestinians and their international standing, well being, and future. It will take at least a generation before this reality results in tangible consequences. By that time, Gaza will be unlivable and the West Bank will be further expanded on and hopes for a two state solution will be dead. I actually feel the most practical step now can be to take these billions in aid money, as well as the billions in military funds fighting this war from Israel and the U.S. and give it to the Palestinians as reparations along with a path to placement outside of Israel. Unfortunately this seems like the best of the worst outcomes. Sometimes, it just is that way. My family is from Iraq. They were all kicked out of Iraq and forced to emigrate to Israel. Now you can point fingers and say that's because of Israel, but my family did nothing wrong. All their valuables and money were stolen. They had prosperous businesses and homes in Baghdad, and it is all gone forever. They will never have their homes back. But ok, we move on and start lives elsewhere.

Yes, but more than that there was an agreement between these British Jewish military personnel and the British government to grant them land in Palestine for helping them win WW2. Add to that the historical ties and the fact that much of Palestine really was uninhabited and not developed, it was by far the most sensible place.

They did immigrate and this caused a ton of conflict. The Arabs were against more Jewish immigration. Obviously given everything going on around that time in Europe, Jews felt it was necessary to have a Jewish state to avoid persecution. They were right in a sense, given that a few years after Zionism began the holocaust was started. In fact, Jews were not allowed to emigrate almost anywhere and in very small numbers. Even the United States blocked the immigration of Jews during this time. Why in a terroristic way, you act like these Jews get their jollies off harming others. They had a goal, unfortunately they had to resort to any means necessary to make it happen. Is it right? No. But given the context you can see how European Jews from that era weren't operating with fairness as their primary concern.

That's true, though it feels like the same (Atrocity propaganda) is being done in reverse to Israelis and sometimes Jews in general. It was frustrating seeing how very shortly after Oct 7 the beheaded babies rumor showed up, and then instantly the hostages and real carnage that took place was forgotten in place of shifted goalposts. Meanwhile, actions by the IDF or certain members of Israeli society are cherry picked and used to dehumanize all Israelis as "evil zionists" where any harm to them is justified. You can see it here, where forum members call Oct 7th atrocities "glorious." This can only be a result of the same kind of dehumanization.

Glorious? You are sick man.

He also said: I think he had some ideals but ultimately put his cause first. Given he was European during some of the worst atrocities and wars, I imagine he was under no illusions that the world is fair. Unfortunate, but now we have to reckon with the current reality.

Lol have fun jerking off to this propaganda. Delusional.

Good thing you're so multi dimensional.

It was blurry which side of the fence Leo was on, but it seems more like he's oscillating between extremes depending on which book he's read most recently. Now he's on his satanic zionists grind. This too shall pass

I'm against the invasion of Iran and regime change if you haven't noticed. Just stating realities. I think there are other ways to prevent this from happening.

If you combine all the territories including west bank, gaza, and mainland israel it is close but Jews still eek out a majority now @ 7 million. Decimate who's population? Iran's? Not sure I get this rational plan. I mean I think the most reasonable interpretation is that they want to install new leadership in Iran which will be less likely to nuke or attack Israel. But then, we know what regime change entails. We've seen it play out too many times. I think Iran will eventually have nukes, and there is a chance they would actually use them. If they did, it would be catastrophic for everyone. Israel has many looming issues in the next 50 years. Iran and their pending nuclear capabilities, and more importantly the next generations of youth completely against them. This will eventually lead to the weakening of their military capabilities. What will the landscape look like then? I don't know. The Palestinians are also screwed. They've both dragged each other down.