hundreth

My point in saying that was that Jews migrated there legally and had strong ties and connections to the land. They didn't just randomly show up with intentions to harm Arabs. The region never had a distinct national entity since the days of biblical Israel, it was always under occupation from one empire or another. Post holocaust Jews had saw an opportunity to come back to their home land, and they took it. Maybe you're right. Would the arabs have accepted such an offer? I don't know. It doesn't seem like it. There weren't really negotiations happening. They declared war. They lost. Then they did it again, and lost again, and again. So this is where we are now. At some point we just need to be practical and find a way to move forward. Jews are never going to stop fighting to be in Israel, and I doubt Palestinians will either. The two state solution seems to be the best path, but each day it becomes harder. I don't think re-litigating the past over and over will help us. Yes, I'm for Palestinian statehood. I just don't think we're going to reach this utopia where the entire region is called "Palestine" and they're all living there in harmony with equal rights. It's a pipe dream. Something like that can happen in the distant future, after they've been peaceful neighbors and generations slowly leave religion behind, but you can't force it on them externally. The two states is the most practical path. Unfortunately that also seems elusive at the moment.

Those "European Zionists" you speak of were expelled from their homeland Israel centuries prior and now emigrated back to the region using legal means after suffering a literal holocaust. Throughout that entire time, they kept a very strong connection and faith in their religion which revolves around Israel. Not to mention the groups of Jews already living there prior to the European movement. Before the war, a third of the region was Jewish. But even putting that aside, it sounds like you're fine with all the Jews being expelled from the region in 48 because you're pro Palestine and you picked your side and that's that? I think the main thing Einstein lamented was not seeking out peace with their Arab neighbors. There's one small Jewish state the size of New Jersey, and 30 Muslim states - which you don't seem to have any issue with. But the Jewish state is on contested land, ok well then that's your issue. But let's not pretend it's about Jewish Nationalism.

You're asked about the mentality of Israelis, I answered. You are free to disagree with the rationale, but it's no lie this is where the mentality stems from. I don't know what a "hardcore Arab" is or how many you've spoken to. There's no real way to know exactly what the broader Arab world believes in their hearts. I think you are naive to think that Arabs living in completely different nations are so concerned with Palestinian land as their primary motive. They don't seem to care about Palestinian lives otherwise, they seem to care mostly about Jews. If you look at those nations today, the entire Jewish populations were expelled. That's no coincidence. What Israelis do know is that many wars have been waged against them with the intention to destroy them. What do you think would have happened if those Arab nations won in 48? 67? 73? Would all those Jews living there have been given a "Palestine" citizenship with full equal rights? No. They would have been eliminated or expelled from the river to the sea and become a footnote in history - just like all the expelled Jews are from other neighboring Arab nations who have lived there for centuries.

The links you shared show that there are some weirdos out there saying related things, and that's unfortunate. But like I said - I've never heard anyone say babies are terrorists. That's absurd. That wouldn't even be a minority perspective. Is it really controversial that teenagers are engaging in combat on Hamas' behalf? A teenager is someone 13-19, and still considered a child by most reports. https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2021/07/hamas-defends-its-military-summer-camps-for-children-and-teenagers.php https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-780613 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qassam_Brigades That's from Wikipedia.

I just responded directly to what you said about the Likud leveraging the hostages for political purposes, and I pointed out why I think the hostages only get in the way of the Likud's goals because it's obvious they aren't doing anything meaningful to getting them back - and so it creates internal dissent in Israel. Your response was a diatribe about the conflict as a whole and how it's all the Likud's fault and yada yada. From where I'm sitting, it looks like you just want to lecture the "bad guys" and have projected some persona onto us. I think the idea of someone who isn't completely anti-Israel with a nuanced perspective is perplexing to you.

Back to your talking points. Okay, you're speaking past me. What's even the point of quoting me? Just copy / paste your talking points over and over lol. That's why you're writing "for the hundredth" time - you're retreading ground that doesn't have anything directly to do with what we were talking about. I'm here to have a conversation, which I was able to do with others here. This isn't a conversation. It's just you ranting.

Lol. Right. What are you talking about? We're specifically talking about using the hostages as an excuse and you went back into your generic bag of talking points. They would do exactly what they're doing now. As I said, the hostages pretty much have nothing to do with their objectives at the moment. That's a big part of the problem.

Where did I say that? I don't know why you feel the need to constantly make strawman boogeymen out of some of us. Try to actually read what we're writing. I also want to add that your framing of the situation is wrong anyways. Israel doesn't need the hostages to justify taking out Hamas. The attack and their stated intention of doing it again is enough. The hostages are actually a large thorn in the side of the far right Likud leadership. Most of the internal dissent from within Israel is centered around our objectives NOT being primarily about the hostages.

I don't know anyone who says "babies are terrorists." What I do hear is that Hamas uses human shields, and so these outcomes are expected and so the blame rests on Hamas. I don't agree with the conclusion. Hamas does use human shields by operating in civilian infra. However, it doesn't absolve us of not using enough care and discretion to avoid civilian casualties. I also hear that teenagers are given weapons and instructed to go into combat, resulting in additional death of children. I think this is a valid criticism. Unfortunately all of these behaviors are to be expected, because if Hamas were to operate like a normal military they would be wiped out in a week.

I don't live in Israel now but I grew up in an Israeli household and understand where a lot of this comes from. First, the idea that most of them haven't been personally affected is wrong. Everyone knows someone who was killed or kidnapped on Oct 7th. More than that, everyone has a loved one currently serving. It is a very small country. We grew up with the idea that the Palestinians want us all wiped out, from "the river to the sea" as they say. Their actions have not betrayed those words. I'm not saying Israel acted properly either, but the Palestinians have mostly made decisions which indicate they would like us all wiped off the face of the planet. Be it the charter, the attacks, and especially the wars where the broader arab world simultaneously attacked Israel with the intent to destroy them. There were 6 of these wars. SIX. They happened in the last 75 years. Most of our parents and grandparents served in these wars, the country is full of military veterans with war stories. Our leaders are war heroes. Israel's whole ethos revolves around survival. There is an understanding that the Palestinians and much of the broader Arab world wants Jews exterminated. And for that reason, they are having trouble empathizing with thousands of Palestinian civilians dying and living in hellish conditions. That's the big problem, this undercurrent that it's fine if they die if they want us dead. It becomes a toxic emotional response. Not everyone thinks this way, there is also a religious component. Both sides have a religious component which is underemphasized in the West. It's the same reason we frame Hamas and the Oct 7th attacks as an inevitability. These Palestinians have lived in horrible conditions, and so we say that this is a consequence. Likewise, Israelis have lived through 75 years of war in which the intention was to eliminate them, and the latest attack was a direct confirmation of that. Neither side believes the other tolerates their existence.

It's astounding the level of self awareness here. You are the one who began referring to @Nivsch's news post as white noise and virtue signaling, and now you're playing the victim lol. My point was that if you're going to refer to impactful news such as his as simply white noise, you have to reflect and apply that to most of what's posted here. I don't know why I bother explaining though.

Wild straw-man. Did you even read what I wrote? You're arguing with your own imagination lol.

Yes, point is to say that the relative value of this news in terms of actually being able to change the trajectory of what's happening is much greater than most of the news here which mostly comprises of external media figureheads bashing Israel over and over with different words.

Most of this thread and it's contents are white noise and virtue signaling. The Israeli leadership is actually the one group who actually can change the direction of what's happening. Will they be able to overcome Bibi's influence? I don't know. But let's not discount the importance of internal politics. Even western leftist outlets highlight the importance of "Bibi's coalition in shambles." Netanyahu is known as a war-time leader and given the benefit of the doubt to keep Israel and it's interests secure. Which is why this conflict has benefitted him despite almost being criminally charged within Israel before it. With the war progressing as it has, his internal support is becoming thinner by the day.

Speak with a doctor who specializes in this stuff. Do not try to cure her. I believe there are medications that can take viral levels to basically undetectable and essentially non transmissible. If she takes a blood test and has these levels, you can go for it. But again, there will always be a chance for infection and complications. A professional would be able to give you the clearest insight, not an internet forum.

Yes, it's important to be able to criticize "your side." There's many Jews and Israelis who are very critical of Bibi and Israel's role in the conflict. Unfortunately I don't see much of this from the "pro palestinian" side. Who is acknowledging the shortcomings of Palestinian leadership, the human rights groups, the surrounding middle eastern nations, the activists, etc. It seems if you've picked that side, they are all beyond reproach because Israel. We need to be able to be realistic and honest. I've taken a step back from posting here because I was dismayed by the progress in the war and how it was being conducted. At the same time, the rhetoric towards Israelis and Jews at large was becoming more violent by the day. The hope in communicating is to reach someone, and in this frenzy finding any common ground seems increasingly unreachable.

I'm glad you're doing this. Reasonable voices get very little attention in this conflict.

I agree with most of what you said, but this ICC stuff is mostly political theater. We get it, everyone hates Israel. Now what have you achieved? Is international isolation going to make Israel commit suicide and cede the land to the Palestinians? Of course not. What's more likely is that isolation makes nations more aggressive, as we've seen throughout history. The U.S. is both Israel's greatest ally and the only one capable of tempering them and reigning them in. It's a double edged sword. Without the link to the U.S. they'd just be another nation trampling a group of people whom no one cares about on a scale much greater than Israel. Which is what is happening all over the world right now. It's clear new leadership is needed on both sides, and with that there is the possibility for renewed hope. The longer this drags without a push for statehood, the worse it will become.

Loser mentality. For the Palestinians sake, I hope you're wrong. Whenever there is war in the region, they are suffering more. But this is the game anti-Israel voices play. They are more concerned with demonizing Israel than forming a Palestinian state.

Pretty much. Most of these conversations devolve into endless blame games with no beginning or end. We're here now. Both Israelis and Palestinians will not leave the land unless in body bags. Both parties will fight to the death to stay. So you can wax poetic about who deserves to be there, but the result will always be death if you get your way. They won't live together, the one-state solution is dead. At least for the foreseeable future. There's a sliver of hope for a two state solution. We need leaders and solutions to move us forward in this direction. Pro Palestinian supporters will need to move from a justice mentality to a problem solving mentality. Palestinians will never receive the justice you seek, no more than Jews will receive justice for the atrocities they've faced for millennia. Pro Palestinian supporters hate when you ask them for potential solutions, because then they actually need to contend with reality. It's much easier to demonize Israel over and over again. If our conversations were more focused on solutions, we might actually be able to advance the conversation.

What comments did posters here make? Who here has advocated for the indiscriminate killing and/or harm to civilians?

What percentage of everyday Israelis do you believe think what should be done is to indiscriminately kill civilian Palestinians?

Of course Israel's leadership is largely at fault for how this played out... But it is true that bots scanning for sound bites from far right voices in Israel paints a story not consistent with the population at large. If you grabbed far right sound bites from any nation, they would all look insane.

Agreed, though I think it's a fringe group of Israelis who think this way. The unfortunate reality is that hamas is deeply entrenched in civilian Palestinian life, and it's almost impossible to remove them without harming countless civilians. It's really sad. I feel if you you gave Israelis a magical device with two buttons, one to eliminate the most vicious Hamas members, and another to maximize casualties and immediately win the war - they would choose the former. Israelis would love if there were a clean way to defeat Hamas. I believe if you gave Hamas the same magical device with the situation flipped, they would choose to destroy all the Jews.

Israelis don't realize there's western bots scanning every Israeli outlet for translated sound bites. They're oblivious to the PR games happening here.