hundreth

In recent times it seems that the "revisionist view" has been espoused as fact and this leads to a lot of animosity. There are many interpretations of what happens during these peace negotiations. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

My only issue with what you said is "always has been." It's true Netanyahu is a barrier, but the conflict doesn't start and end with him. There have been many leaders and decades of dysfunction. Israel has had leaders who were open to a two state solution and who have gone to great lengths to get there. In one case, he gave up his life. In any event, I'd rather not go in circles over the past again because it doesn't help us today. It only keeps us further at odds. For the Palestinians to have a state you need the following: 1.) A leader the majority of Palestinians stand behind (Bibi works against this) 2.) The recognition of Israel and waiving the right to return as a general principle. (There can be specific instances.) 3.) An Israeli government focused on peace. 4.) Land swaps and the rolling back of certain settlements. 5.) Security guarantees for both states. At some moments we were close. You have to be able to keep the two sides in the same room together.

I'd personally like to see an international peacekeeping force in place. If Israelis are completely responsible for securing the border, they will always test the boundaries for potentially nefarious reasons, to spite Israel, and in some cases to sew chaos which results in civilian deaths again.

The guest on this segment does a good job describing the dynamic between Netanyahu and Sinwar.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/mediator-qatar-urges-clear-positions-gaza-ceasefire-2024-06-04/

And which nation is going to suddenly absorb 7+ million Jews? They would essentially become refugees. Maybe UNRWA can take care of them. Or maybe... it just makes sense to work towards a two state solution.

I was going to reply to @zazen that his response was very well written and informative, but that he was likely wasting his time since there's a breadth of information out there on this subject which you don't care about and have willfully ignored. I was too late. You ignored the substance of what he wrote. You've already made up your mind on the subject, so why bother asking?

What trap? You mean like the one where you sympathize and protect a poster posting blatantly antisemitic rhetoric while outright dismissing more than a handful of us who have shared valuable perspectives? I'm going to spare everyone and block you for the sake of not filling this thread with this dumb back and forth. You seem like an immature kid with this "take the L I checkmated you" BS. Hope you grow from it one day. Take care.

That's how you see anyone who isn't completely anti-Israel and that's unfortunate. I've seen many of us share valuable perspectives and also our condemnation for much of what's happening. From my point of view, there's some of us here figuring it out together and finding common ground / solutions / ideas. You see it differently, is what it is.

Right, we are the ones who are special and delusional - the correct thing to do is protect valuable and rational posters like @Twentyfirst. Good job.

Why guess when you can read? You aren't the first person to think about it. Just avoid jewsarelizards.com and similar sources.

Read a history book. I think you'll find some answers.

You want an explanation for why the Jews had beef with Hitler? Lol I want an explanation for why the education system failed us.

I've seen ridiculous posts like this on the bowels of Xitter... but nice to see they made it here.

🤦‍♂️ You were shown photos and content posted directly by Hamas and continue to pretend they don't exist.

After the fact of what? When Jews migrated to the region, it was under British rule and legal. At that moment it was legal, not after the fact. You're re-writing history. They didn't take over Palestinian lands violently. They arrived. There was a partition plan, it was rejected. Arabs declared war. Violence ensued. Now we can dissect after the fact how the war was conducted and find flaws, but they didn't just show up and start violently evicting Arabs. Try to make one post without mentioning Hitler, I dare you.

Of course not. Not sure what you mean by 60% of the people, do you mean the current population? If so, much of the current population consist of Jews expelled from surrounding Arab nations. In terms of the partition and proportions, maybe you're right. It's too late for 1948 negotiations though. Now there are new issues and concerns we need to deal with. The solution to that is Palestinian statehood, as we both agreed to already. The Palestinian government at the time was the UK. So how can you separate it? That's who the Jews obtained passports from, the "Palestinian government." It's fair to say the UK had it's own agenda, but you can't blame Jews for that. It's funny to me that so many make legal arguments now based on the legality from UN rulings. The same UN who created the partition plan which resulted in the formation of Israel. The UN also has it's own agenda, which ebbs and flows with time. False equivalence and you're conflating two different things. One is the groups of people living in the lands, and the other relates to nation states. Jews living in the region, should they not be able to live in their ancestral homeland now? That's a separate question from the nation state of Israel. Jews will always try to be in Israel regardless of the sovereign nation state in power because it's part of their religion. Their entire religion revolves around Israel. They've always had a presence there. You can't reduce it to a simple land issue. Putin's case is one sovereign nation state attacking another sovereign nation state for the sole purpose of land expansion.

Legally in that Jews migrated there legally. What's hard to understand about that? They went through normal legal means to emigrate there, and purchased land legally. Would Arabs have allowed Jews in had it not been under British rule? I don't know. But that's not the fault of Jews. Like I said, the region was under occupation for centuries. During that time, many groups came and went. Many "native" Palestinians you speak of also emigrated there in recent times. That's what happens in any land, people come and go. There's nothing inherently nefarious about Jewish emigration to a land. This one is pretty lazy, and I think you can do better. You're comparing Jews legally emigrating to an area after the holocaust, and then having the UN create a partition on occupied land to Putin forcefully starting a military operation. Fair enough.

My point in saying that was that Jews migrated there legally and had strong ties and connections to the land. They didn't just randomly show up with intentions to harm Arabs. The region never had a distinct national entity since the days of biblical Israel, it was always under occupation from one empire or another. Post holocaust Jews had saw an opportunity to come back to their home land, and they took it. Maybe you're right. Would the arabs have accepted such an offer? I don't know. It doesn't seem like it. There weren't really negotiations happening. They declared war. They lost. Then they did it again, and lost again, and again. So this is where we are now. At some point we just need to be practical and find a way to move forward. Jews are never going to stop fighting to be in Israel, and I doubt Palestinians will either. The two state solution seems to be the best path, but each day it becomes harder. I don't think re-litigating the past over and over will help us. Yes, I'm for Palestinian statehood. I just don't think we're going to reach this utopia where the entire region is called "Palestine" and they're all living there in harmony with equal rights. It's a pipe dream. Something like that can happen in the distant future, after they've been peaceful neighbors and generations slowly leave religion behind, but you can't force it on them externally. The two states is the most practical path. Unfortunately that also seems elusive at the moment.

Those "European Zionists" you speak of were expelled from their homeland Israel centuries prior and now emigrated back to the region using legal means after suffering a literal holocaust. Throughout that entire time, they kept a very strong connection and faith in their religion which revolves around Israel. Not to mention the groups of Jews already living there prior to the European movement. Before the war, a third of the region was Jewish. But even putting that aside, it sounds like you're fine with all the Jews being expelled from the region in 48 because you're pro Palestine and you picked your side and that's that? I think the main thing Einstein lamented was not seeking out peace with their Arab neighbors. There's one small Jewish state the size of New Jersey, and 30 Muslim states - which you don't seem to have any issue with. But the Jewish state is on contested land, ok well then that's your issue. But let's not pretend it's about Jewish Nationalism.

You're asked about the mentality of Israelis, I answered. You are free to disagree with the rationale, but it's no lie this is where the mentality stems from. I don't know what a "hardcore Arab" is or how many you've spoken to. There's no real way to know exactly what the broader Arab world believes in their hearts. I think you are naive to think that Arabs living in completely different nations are so concerned with Palestinian land as their primary motive. They don't seem to care about Palestinian lives otherwise, they seem to care mostly about Jews. If you look at those nations today, the entire Jewish populations were expelled. That's no coincidence. What Israelis do know is that many wars have been waged against them with the intention to destroy them. What do you think would have happened if those Arab nations won in 48? 67? 73? Would all those Jews living there have been given a "Palestine" citizenship with full equal rights? No. They would have been eliminated or expelled from the river to the sea and become a footnote in history - just like all the expelled Jews are from other neighboring Arab nations who have lived there for centuries.

The links you shared show that there are some weirdos out there saying related things, and that's unfortunate. But like I said - I've never heard anyone say babies are terrorists. That's absurd. That wouldn't even be a minority perspective. Is it really controversial that teenagers are engaging in combat on Hamas' behalf? A teenager is someone 13-19, and still considered a child by most reports. https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2021/07/hamas-defends-its-military-summer-camps-for-children-and-teenagers.php https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-780613 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qassam_Brigades That's from Wikipedia.

I just responded directly to what you said about the Likud leveraging the hostages for political purposes, and I pointed out why I think the hostages only get in the way of the Likud's goals because it's obvious they aren't doing anything meaningful to getting them back - and so it creates internal dissent in Israel. Your response was a diatribe about the conflict as a whole and how it's all the Likud's fault and yada yada. From where I'm sitting, it looks like you just want to lecture the "bad guys" and have projected some persona onto us. I think the idea of someone who isn't completely anti-Israel with a nuanced perspective is perplexing to you.

Back to your talking points. Okay, you're speaking past me. What's even the point of quoting me? Just copy / paste your talking points over and over lol. That's why you're writing "for the hundredth" time - you're retreading ground that doesn't have anything directly to do with what we were talking about. I'm here to have a conversation, which I was able to do with others here. This isn't a conversation. It's just you ranting.

Lol. Right. What are you talking about? We're specifically talking about using the hostages as an excuse and you went back into your generic bag of talking points. They would do exactly what they're doing now. As I said, the hostages pretty much have nothing to do with their objectives at the moment. That's a big part of the problem.