Nahm

@Call Me Whatever A food analogy comes to mind. If someone eats poorly for years, and for a month eats really clean...then eats poorly for a day, the experience feels downright ill, though it never bothered them at all before. I’ve also heard of people having trip hangovers, where the returning of thought patterns seems more intense and undesirable, for having experienced there true nature. You might have something along those lines going on. Sounds like you’re handling it well. Imo the key is continuing to let the thoughts go, which lets emotions out, which seems to play a key role in such a ‘rollercoaster’ leveling out into peace & love.

@seeking_brilliance Wow that’s awesome!

Yes it is. Let go of logic and feel. Ever forget where your keys are and get irritated...then remember where they are feel relief? Same you, same keys.

Instead of giving up ... you just return attention to breathing from the stomach, and relax the body. Gravity basically does that for you. You’re just not-tensing really, not resisting gravity. That’s it. When you quit, it’s to avoid feeling. I believe you that you aren’t recognizing that. Doesn’t matter really, just don’t quit & be willing to feel however you feel. Meditation isn’t even an effort, or a doing, really...so there isn’t really a ‘quitting’. It’s just sitting there relaxing and lightly focusing on breathing. Quitting is avoidance. What’s being avoided is feeling. The bliss and relaxation came from you, is you. The lsd quited the mind. It ‘works’, is helpful, but is not needed. You could google how to relax. There are virtually countless ways to go about it. You can make a fist right now and feel the tension of the contraction of the muscles...and then un-fist and feel the muscles relax. Do that with your whole body. Stand up and tense every muscles at the same time as much as possible...then let go and feel the relaxation. Then you would know relaxation via direct experience. It’s simple like that. Don’t think about it. It requires no thinking. No. You quit. Not trying to poke you in the eye...but this kinda must be said, must be realized. Notice the temptation to blame, when truly - you quit. That feeling is emotion to be released. It’s up to you to let the blame meditation isn’t working thinking perspective go. When you do, emotion releases. When that occurs, thought stories arise, opportunities to blame, resent, be mad at someone, regret something, worry about something, etc, etc. Return attention to breathing from the stomach instead of pursuing those thoughts / perspectives. Learn to let them (thought) go. Learn to let emotion out. You can do this. Technically, it is non-doing. The body releases automatically. The natural nature of thought is appearing & disappearing. Technically, you’re struggling with not doing. You answer is typically more doing, and clearly you have tried that and it doesn’t work. Suffering has a way of opening minds to practices of non-doing, relaxation and feeling. You refuse to let thoughts go, because you’re avoiding feeling. If you simple sat with it, you’d experience the emotions, and some outpouring. But that’s it. It’s not like monsters come out of the closet and eat you. If you video taped the whole thing, it’d be so boring you wouldn’t even watch it. But do whatever feels best to you, the path of least resistance. You can approach this solo, and you can talk with anyone you want about it. All in the name of liberation & well being really, all Good. Broken record here I know, but the body so to speak naturally empties if you just sit down long enough. Don’t fear it man, it worth it. It feels great to let it all go, cry some shit out. No big deal. It’s far better to get stung by a bee, than to live in fear of bees. Very tempting to call you a loser here so you can feel the relativity and realize that statement is just nonsense, but you really are a good person, and I love ya and I digress. Yes it does. Let go of the “fixing” mindset, and welcome the letting go mindset. If a marble was stuck in a garden hose, it wouldn’t be “broke” and need “fixing” to get the flow going...just the releasing of the marble would be ample. There is a source, and you want that flow. To “get it”, accept counter intuitive suggestions, like meditating every morning and letting go. No quitting. Just returning to breathing from the stomach. There’s no report card, no getting it right or wrong. For sure, that can only help. In a nutshell, it’s expression. If another person helps that, great. You can utilize the best of both worlds so to speak. You can do this solo too, by writing about how you feel. However that is, and what you write doesn’t actually matter...learning to express it, let it out, is the point. You are the “base” and you are Good. When thoughts arise about yourself that don’t feel good, let them go. Express them if it’s helpful, but don’t believe them. Really try your absolute best to catch yourself doing this - and flip the script. Give yourself some love. If you think “my base is fucked”, reach for a better feeling thought. Even if it feels a tiny bit better...you’re going in that better feeling direction, toward the love & clarity you really are. Momentum of feeling better builds. Eventually is is the default, and there is emptying of emotions along the way. Godspeed. You can do this letting go. Just a misc thought...airbnb’s secluded in the woods, I’ve found to be ideal. Alone in nature is best, imo. I think they have some kind of COVID cleaned guarantee or something or other close to that, idk. There’s still risk of course, and up to you, just thought I’d mention it cause that’s what I’d do. Being around anyone, especially at home / with same people or family can trigger same stuff, same reactions, same patterns. I always preferred pure alone, not uttering a word for days or weeks. Whatever works for you though. I agree. Just want ya feelin good, happy, having fun, thriving. ??

@RedLine Language tricks...? All there is is love. Love is absolute, and has no opposite. Suffering is the ignoring of truth. (Love = Truth).

@RedLine You assume much.

@RedLine Almost, but you missed what I said there.

I feel like we’re playing Headbands. It is about you. The problem you’re encountering is the belief love isn’t about you. It’s like a car talking about metal saying it’s not about me while the car is essentially metal. There are other people only due to “your” subjectivity, which is why the inquiry is looping back to you. The belief “everything is love is subjective bias” is the subjective bias.

@RedLine No worries. Much love for ya. Was just pointing out you made a thread of inquiry but didn’t answer the question. I don’t mean it like I’m trying to bust your chops about it, I mean an insight / realization is there.

Love, obviously. You are me, I am you, we are in this together. Notice you didn’t answer the question. You’re employing deflection. I would answer, so that you got deeper’ into it, or at least contemplate why you didn’t answer. In simple relative logic, you made a thread, you claim you’re open minded, then you ignore via deflection. It’s highly worth noticing and understanding - in my opinion. That I am making you understanding something is a misnomer. Understanding is letting go of thought attachment, of relativity believed to be absolute, and as such always up to what is absolute To do, though the doing is apparent. Without that suffering, love is readily ever present. Letting go is initially highly counterintuitive to thinking, striving in the vein that there even is something to figure out & perpetuating the experience of the ‘figuring out’. Which is why I asked what’s on your mind, so to speak. By all means though, carry on, and Godspeed. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, a bit personally held in my regard / yet at the same time you do seem to be sincere in your seeking understanding. Forewarning...you’re challenging attitude is enjoyable. Here’s some new perspectives you’re open to that might be useful. If you’re not as open as you believe, no worries, just disregard...might come back around down the road, might not at all. "Everything is Love" is subjective bias “Everything” is a thought. No one ever experiences an everything. There isn’t even one thing, let alone an all things, or an every thing. If you inspect & scrutinize, it is discovered there is only a complete perfect no-thing wholeness, no parts, or things. Nonduality is not a state. That’s a belief about nonduality. You can’t experience God, that’s a misunderstanding of “both”, duality. You can’t experience that everything is love, love is self realization, not “everything” realization. Again, there is no “everything”. You as depressed is a label upon what can not be labelled, and that is precisely why it feels as it does - because you are love & pure goodness. Love is well beyond, prior to, and appearing as, meaning. Love can not be a perspective, all perspectives are initially an appearance of love, and ultimately there is no appearance. Only you can transcend suffering. Start be recognizing what is and is not, direct experience. In this example, you’d have to humble down to the recognition the direct experience is only your thought about these. Also notice that to cover that up, blame and accusation is utilized. You don’t have to choose to do that, you can choose to inspect instead. Always up to you. If there seems to be a struggle to do that, letting go emotionally is the key. Emotional suppression keeps the mind contracted, attempting to resolve feeling with thinking. We all try our best, but that never pans out. All roads lead to letting go. How rough your road must be is always up to you. Nonduality means, as in points to, that there are not two. Your mind seems paradox locked. I’d write the opposite of your beliefs down, and contemplate them until you genuinely realize they are equally true. That is all an appearance of love. Suffering, with a little inspection, is not something you could be in or out of, it is experience you do or don’t create now, by believing or not believing thoughts (aka thought attachment, or identification as a separate self in many different ways which all are thoughts being believed.) There are not other people, that’s a belief, and you most definitely can literally see through their eyes. You probably wouldn’t presently believe this and I wouldn’t expect you to, but that can actually become completely normal to you & if you are genuinely interested in helping anyone transcend suffering, it is extremely useful and insightful. There’s a lot of letting go prior to such apparent experiencing. But that’s a relative statement, it’s all appearance / experience, love. Everything is love and there are degrees and modes of love. Nothing is love and there are no degrees or modes of love. You can also put the games down and awaken, and begin playing the game. No ya don’t. It’s up to you to transcend that. You can expect people to comply with your conditions, but you’ll suffer for it and inevitably let it go. Love is formless, boundless, unlimited and infinite. Love is conceptual to you because you’ve conceptualized a you and in turn, conceptualized love. Pretty much unavoidable, and absolutely innocent. You are the love conceptualizing, just haven’t self realized yet. Scrutinizing and holding positions as you are is most beneficial, as it inevitably leads to doing the actual “work”, practices, inspection of direct experience, etc. The stuff you are reading about other people doing. All roads lead to letting go, and letting go reveals absolute love. There would seem to be objectivity, and for that matter subjectivity, unless you have transcended perspectives and realized you are what you are referring to as objectivity. Then, there is neither. Reality is love. Reality is nothing. What do you practices look like? Meditation every day? For how long have you? Weeks, months, years? This would be a key questioning with noticing if you ignore it. It would put to some resistance to letting go of thinking. It would reveal and release what is ‘grinding your gears’ in regard to love.

@RedLine Weird reply. What is one example of something you know, which is not known subjectively? If you inspect & inquire, you find there is no separation between knowing and known. See the ‘problem’ with your misunderstanding? There is ultimately is no subjectivity or objectivity. They’re just apparent perspectives.

@RedLine What’s really on your mind man, what’s grinding your gears?

@Heart of Space Ya. You got me pretty hard right in the feels once a while back and I remember and appreciate it still. You’re awesome, no thought to the contrary will do, wishing you the best. ??

@Raptorsin7 Thoughts which don’t feel good arise, and are adhered to, believed, and expressed without considering they aren’t true. Daily morning meditation, working up to an hour a day, is the means of letting thoughts go & not believing or reacting to them (returning focus to breathing from the stomach & relaxing the body crown to toes). This empties out emotional misunderstanding. As it empties out...one let’s it go, focusing on breathing & relaxing....or one ‘jumps at the thoughts’, believing them, and reinforces the suffering of believing thoughts about oneself which do not feel good. It’s a nasty cycle of believing there is something wrong with you, skipping letting it go now simply because of how it feels...and venturing in all directions for something to fix, what only letting go can resolve. Put more simply, there are no problems, other than the insistence that there is a problem, and that the problem is you / something is wrong with you. That, is “the problem”, and it feels terrible simply because it’s not true at all. When this cycle is happening at a more all pervasive all life encompassing level, it is most often related to a fundamental staple of ‘who I am”. Identity in regard to gender, sexuality, etc. Fully embracing, accepting, and loving whatever that notion of ‘who I am’ is, is the key. Realizing any conditions upon self acceptance, self love, and happiness - you are believing. They aren’t true, they are belief. The contrary approach is avoiding feeling, suppressing, etc - which is the believing of the thoughts. That is the means of emotional suppression. Believing and sharing “I am a loser” is the quintessential example. Why believe that when it feels terrible? This has become the norm for you apparently, to such a degree, that I would suggest 1 to 3 months of literally nothing but well being & letting old thought habitual patterns play out. Lots of emotional releases. A complete ‘zooming out’ of literally everything so that you can let go enough to see the Forrest from the trees again. Or don’t meditate every morning with proper technique, and release the emotional judgements & misunderstanding. But at least acknowledge to yourself that’s all that’s going on, and that is fundamental ordinary ego & suffering. Not something unique to you, nor special, nor is it a ‘problem’. Hope you take that in the liberate yourself from this shit, loving manor it is meant. There is likely a deep seated fear that if you let go of thoughts & perspectives, and relax / focus on breathing, feeling, seeing & hearing...that you’ll experience who you really are...and that it will be terrible. But that fear is unjustified. It’s just from repeating so many thoughts about you - which don’t feel good - to you. Ultimately, one who does not put feeling great first, suffers. I would be writing in a journal about how you feel right now, and only right now, everyday. As always, I think you’re great, and I hope you let go of your self-beliefs enough to see this. I hope you see you like I do. You’re very loving, charismatic, capable, and funny, imo. Just got layers / beliefs upon that to let go of.

@The0Self ?

@The0Self Funny, isn’t it?

Infinite can not know finite.

@Red-White-Light No thing to worry about, as nothing never becomes anything.

@Alfonsoo There is still much importance given to what you think. You’re wrestling with letting go, and a trip is not the ideal time to do it. In that case, any distraction / change of experience is ideal. Daily morning meditation, working your way up to an hour of letting thoughts go by returning attention to breathing & feeling...along with writing about how you feel now, in regard to anything emotional that arises & empties out...along with a clean diet & some fitness...would ‘clean you right out’. I know those trip thought loops, and believe it or not, what is experienced as quite scary & terrible...becomes so funny you can’t even stand it (in a hilariously pleasant way). Also, the key imo, is not proceeding with the contextualizing it was a “bad” trip. Try to relate / get the message instead.

I think your question / consideration is innocently underhanded. I’d stick to the behaviors & actions at present in being aware of potential predictors of future behaviors. Notice it’s always up to you - is there a past or not? Are you recognizing this is up to each one? Such a fine line between liberation & enabling, given there is no people, past or doer. I would suggest a more important question is how someone is doing with morning meditation, journaling & emotionally expressing, and follow through on ‘sitting with it’, feeling the arising emotions, and not going into a thought story weaving in past, self, other, or future. How someone handles where they’re at, and the extent they are willing to let go, are greater future predictors than the past, so to speak, imo. Oprah is an extreme but true example, if you read her bio a bit. That wouldn’t be up to you. Some people let go, most don’t. Some believe they are, but aren’t.

Amen to that. ??

Relax & contemplate that a bit more. I believe there’s a realization there for you that you’re looking for. If infinite could know finite...wouldn’t that mean, since there is finite...that there isn’t infinite? @Vittorio ?

What is it? (As specifically as you can investigate)

Is awareness infinite or finite? Is body a thing or a thought? What is a thing sans a thought? What is a thought? Is thought infinite or finite? What direct experience have you of this death you speak of? You’ve yet to seriously scrutinize any of this. You’re pretending to, through the filter of holding beliefs first. Let them go, inspect the direct experience of what is right now.

@Red-White-Light Read and contemplate deeper and you’ll find the understanding.