Scholar

This is what I mean. There is no substance here, no contending with what I was writing. An easy dismissal, a referral to hypocrisy ("But you are deluded yourself, AND IF YOU DON'T LOOK AT YOUR OWN DELUSION I WON'T LOOK AT MINE!") and the ego can with satisfaction avoid the self-reflection that is needed. Notice that there is no curiousity of my position, of why I hold my position, of the meaning of my position and so forth. There is no desire to absord information, because identity is being threatened. Now, I would say I did not act in a way to change their mind, I was not effectively doing that because of how confrontational I was. But for anyone reading, notice the dynamics at play, it is very apparent from an outsiders perspective.

Just released, this fits into this discussion aswell: Make a distinction between values and views. A good way to capture the Spiral Frankensteinian Monster phenomena is to describe it as "People aware of the Spiral adopting higher value views yet not evolving towards new values". Someone at stage orange in one developmental line will use a Higher Stage View to justify not changing his values, to justify remaining at his current position. So Orange can use Turquoise relativism to help itself reside at stage Orange. It can use that view to basically dismiss the validity of ALL further development. And this is what the Devil does, this is the Devil's purpose. This is happening often because we create a stage orange or green view of higher stage values. We for example create a competitive version of "High Consciousness" or "Anti-dogmatism" and we actually operate them from a stage orange framework! @B_Naz Is a good example here, he is very honestly showing us his stage orange values. He values his personal gain and individual freedom, like working out effortlessly, over the life and suffering of other beings. Now, when we point out and call it devilry, he might use a higher stage view to justify his position. He will use Moral Relativism or Nihilism to actually justify his more primitive values. He will use talking points from the higher stages to dismiss seeing a limitation in how value-set. Can you see how helpful it would be for him to see this dynamic taking place, but also how unlikely it is for him to see it?

Yes, like those pesky slavery abolitionists. They ruined the party with all the complaining about black people deserving rights. Fucking vegan extremists, believing other creatures have a basic right to life without enslavement and slaughter.

The fundamental problem is deeper than just this issue of veganism. If the intellect was applied to any other situation, the mind would come to the same conclusion you came within seconds, absolutely effortlessly. This is the problem when your intellect protects your identity, it will at each step attempt to find reasons for it's own conclusions and be completely blindsided to that which is obviously contradicting those reasons. It is amazing how the mind works. Your identity will determine the way you think. This kind of bias is the easiest way to point out egoic attachments. This is how we know we are not confronting Tier 2 minds. Veganism is a fundamental change in the way we view ourselves, this is why it leads to so much resistance. The same reason why a racist has such a hard time accepting that other races should not be enslaved or that they are equal to them. It fundamentally changes how they view themselves, what they are. It is a grave threat to their self, as much as the animal holocaust is a great threat to the vegan, for he has expanded his identity to include animals.

One of the problems I have here is that you guys have a really rule based approach to how you view developmental work. "DOGMA BAD, IDENTITY BAD, REAL SELF IMPORTANT, EVERYTHING ELSE WASTE OF TIME, DON'T BE ATTACHED, DON'T BELIEVE IN MORALITY, BE HIGH CONSCIOUSNESS, BE YELLOW, GREEN BAD MUST TRANSITION TO YELLOW" This is not systemic thinking, you completely forgo all nuance. The current problem in our world is that we have to bring people from orange to green, that we have to reduce stage orange nihilism and create stage green purpose and identity attachments. You cannot rush to stage yellow. A Hallmark of Tier 2 is that it sees the value of each stage and goes back to integrate everything that is useful and necessary. You guys are skipping over green without ever having dived into it. Stage Green will be outrage about the animal holocaust to such a degree that it will be unbarable to know that it is even happening in your presence. It is not simply abstinence of being evil, it is the active engagement, the adoption of responsibility for the suffering you see around you. It is not making excuses, looking for hypocracies, finding justifications. It is about radical adoption of responsibility and compassion. This is not about the position you have adopted. This is not about ideology, this is about the functionality of your mind, the way you operate, the fundamental way your emotional frameworks are reacting to information. Imagine Jesus Christ knowing about the animal holocaust. Do you really think he would be here criticizing the vegans for being dogmatic? Do you think he would be a relativistic edgelord who exclaims that all morality is relative and that it is important to abandon it? Look at the bigger picture here. There is suffering and destruction in this world that is unimaginable, and your spiritual insights will not change any of that. If you limit your identity to the very body you are occupying it is effortless to be in a state of pseudo high consciousness. This is not mastery, mastery is being high consciousness in the face of terror, in the face of true threat to the ego. Not hiding in your first world where none of your actions will truly threaten your existence and your philosophies have no consequences to you whatsoever while others are experiencing hell. I can get very passionate and I do not care about being dispassionate. It is unauthentic, I can fall into identity, make it do the work, for it's emotions fuel my actions. And when the identity is inappropriate, I can detach from it. This is what consciousness is for. The dispassion is a tool for us to increase our passion. The distance a tool to increase our Love. Not to avoid the hard work.

But this is pure dogma aswell. You will not feel fine when someone enslaves you or kills your for food. You are not beyond ego, you are not beyond judgement, you are not beyond dogma and identity. What you are saying is completely redundant, and the only reason you do so is so you do not have to challenge yourself on your current Identity. We don't go from neanderthal to enlightened Buddha or Christ. We go from red, to blue, to green, to yellow, to turquoise and beyond. We transcend and include. You are creating a False Self, you are not Authentic to where you truly are and you use other peoples experiences of the Real Self to justify the state of your False Self. You use spiritual dogma and moralistic nihilism to dismiss progress. That's literally what you are doing. Abandoning slavery was progress. Abandoning human trafficking is progress. A world that is vegan is progress. This has nothing to do with the pre/trans fallacy, this has to do with pseudo-spiritual dogmatists parroting the wise words of their Guru. This is what is happening here. The answer to someone who is vegan is not to call for him to repress his identity, but rather to overcome it. You do not overcome it by becoming dispassionate and selfish about the suffering of others. The reason why eating vegetables is not bad compared to animals is that A) The animals we consume eat far more plants than us and B) that there is no evidence for plants having a capacity for suffering or experience. Today's system is not just slavery manifesting in different ways. This kind of relativism is hindering the progress of us as individuals and us as a collective. You do not see high level spiritual people act like this anywhere. You are creating a completely delusional fantasy of what stage yellow is, and you use that fantasy to justify you selfishness. Notice how when I point out the incredible suffering of other beings, your reaction is to point out my devilry. You do not use compassion to understand the suffering and to understand the urgency to come and adopt responsiblity for it. You abandon responsibility in the name of your spiritual ideology. If you define dogma this broadly it becomes completely useless as a term, because then we would recognize that dogma is a necessity for human evolution. Your definition of dogma would include the process of how you determine something to be dogmatic or not. This has nothing to do with spirituality.

You fail to see the underlying dynamic that I was trying to criticize. This goes beyond this very issue of veganism. It's not just people agreeing or disagreeing with this issue, it is again their whole attitude towards spirituality and individual evolution. We are getting a lot of repression, dispassion and gaslighting in this forum, this includes even many of the people here who agree with veganism. Whether or not it's most people I obviously cannot say, it was a hyperbole. It is defintiely an issue to me though. I see a more underlying problem here that you seem to be unwilling to face. Your identity determines the way you use your intellect. If your identity included animals, meaning that you felt deep compassion for their suffering, you would be able to dsmantle your very own argumentation within no time at all. This is the core of your issue. Your intellect works for your identity. "Everyone has different dietary needs! But nutritionists say a vegan diet is not as healthy! etc." If you had true compassion for animals you would think this way: "The general consensus of nutritionists is that the vegan diet is healthy for all stages of life, including pregancy and infancy. Even if some people might struggle with energy problems on a vegan diet, would it really be justified to continue to inflict suffering on my brothers and sisters that I so dearly love? Maybe I can find ways to somehow reduce it or overcome the health problems I face, if I truly even face these problems. Have I truly tried my best to integrate a vegan lifestyle? Maybe I can eat insects of mussels?" If you had to eat your mother to because "everyone has different dietary needs", you arguments would change immediately. Imagine I was someone who was against human trafficking, would you still be calling me dogmatic? Would you still be claiming that I was trying to force my lifestyle on others? If I claimed that I was more compassionate because I am against human trafficking, would you then proceed to challenge me on how compassionate I am? Would you come up with different excuses for why it is fine to do human trafficking? There are trillions of animals that are being killed each year, the majority of which in gruesome ways. The fact that this is not a problem to you speaks volumes of how biased you are towards the minds that you call human. The fact that this is not seen and that someone who has a more evolved/expanded identity is being called dogmatic to me is pure devilry. I would have to write an essay on Spiral Frankenstein Monsters, which I think is a huge phenomena in this community.

Why do you think I am dogmatic about this? And the reason why I am able to see more and more how many dysfunctional people are in this forum is because I took a break in the first place. It is very clear to me now.

These stickmen are calm because they are removed from reality. Have the courage to watch this with true compassion. Try to be involved. Don't escape into the untouchable formlessness. Then understand why emotion and identity is appropriate for this. You guys really need to become more open minded about how you deal with worldly issues and spiritual work. I am very concerned about the condition of the people in this forum. There is a dogma here that has nothing to do with spiritual mastery, the devil hijacking the path for his own purposes. Again, Ken Wilbers model is very helpful here. Real Self, Actual Self, False Self. People focus too much on the Real Self here, they dismiss the development of the Actual Self. This is incomplete. Dispassion is not appropriate here. What you guys are doing is telling Jewish Holocaust survivors that they are deluded and shouldn't be so moralistic. The fact that you cannot see how deeply egoic and absurd this is should really put up some red flags in your minds. What you guys are doing is repressing compassion, not mastering it. When a jewish holocaust survivor comes to you with his anger, you will tell him. "Yes, I understand your anger, what happened to you was terrible.", not "Don't be so judgemental you unspiritual loser, lol!".

This one is good aswell:

I don't think being moralistic is bad. I see identity evolution as essential and valuable. I think that killing animals for reasons that do not seem necessary is bad to me. Does dismissing slavery, rape and the holocaust of jews make me ideological or moralistic? What is the difference? Do you think there is a way to do slavery in a way that is not inherently bad to you? Also, see how Sadhguru responds to orange. By adopting responsibility around us. That is the next evolutionary step, it is in the hands of us, who are in this position. Without it, there will be no grand human evolution into spiritual godhood. You can forget about that if we do not get our foundations right. Adopt more responsibility, become compassionate, help others. But instead you guys seek to avoid this responsibility. You seek to avoid action and justify it with your spiritual and philosophical positions. Non-action and action. Attachment and detachment. They are not dichtomies: Read the highest stage, the Ironist.

We are planning to have cheap lab grown meat within this decade sold at supermarkets. There will be no need to sustainable, conscious animal farming. If we simply avoided all animal products, we could easily sustain our way of living and then some. We could infact rewild current land that we use for animal farming. we could then develope better ways to farm plants, like vertical farming. Or solutions like this: https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2019/07/15/Solar-Foods-makes-protein-out-of-thin-air-This-is-the-most-environmentally-friendly-food-there-is I don't see compelling arguments to actively grow and kill animals for food, especially not in the future, and especially not the animals we currently grow. I can't help to think you are biased, because if you were not, why would you not suggest insect farming in place of animal farming? It is far, far more sustainable, human beings are adapted to consume insects as almost all primates are and it might be a more ethical solution than killing the more complex animals. Yet, I don't even think there are compelling arguments for that when we have things like lab grown meat around the corner. Your need for there to be "higher consciousness animal farming" is to me no different than a need for "higher consciousness slavery". In a few decades this statement will look completely insane.

Nothing is inherent to reality. These judgements are as real as the universe itself. There is no difference at all. You are still moralistic, you do not see the deeper layers. You have created a hierarchy between what is more or less delusional, what is more or less inherent. What do you think is making that judgement? You must look far deeper, far more closely. You have to explore the subtle realm far more than this to see it. It is staggering how obvious the workings of the ego can be to someone who is observing it from the outside. Read your last few posts again in the context of "You can have values, prferences and judgements, its about how conscious you are of them!". Understand that statement, which you made yourself, and then understand how you reacted to serotonin before that, how you judged him for being moralistic. How it is completely obvious and apparent to anyone here that in this case you are far less aware of your moralistic judgements and your attachments of them than he is and that you are currently trying to save the image of your ego or to avoid introspection. Look at what you are doing.

You can't believe it? Why, because you are disappointed of serotonin? Because your expectations have not been met? Because your judgement of what should be has contradicted of what is? If your understanding of morality was not so narrow, you would understand that right now your are being moralistic. You are anything but accepting. Your are criticizing, why would you do so if you had no judgements? The fact that you said "I don't like x" is a moral judgement. This dynamic to me is utterly fascinating. What the Devil did was ingenius. People here do not understand the depth of the lies, the depth of the tendrils of delusion. The complete and utter ignorance it is able to induce, the blindness, the utter helplessness, it just ingenius. This is beyond language, beyond thought. The lies start in the very way your perceive reality and yourself. They are grounded far deeper in your mind that what you are currently aware of. The depth of morality goes to the core of your being, to go beyond it would render your inhuman in behaviour, literally. You have unpealed the most surface layer and made yourself believe it to be all the layers there are. That is the devils greatest gift. For if it believes the final layer was unveiled, it will not seek a deeper layer. It will use the deeper mechanism to achieve the very same work. Morality is metaphysical, not merely what you label good and bad. You could never use the label of goodness and badness and be the most moralistic person in the world.

@Chakra Lion Don't let yourself be gaslit by people in here. Notice that people are very selective about when they pull out the "identity is bad!" card and when they are not. If you came in here asking about whether or not you should follow your desire to murder and torture people, then trust me you would get a very different response from the same people who gave you the typical moral nihilistic attitude. This attitude is not based in true consciousness or love, it is in most cases simply a way to easily dismiss difficult topics. Identity needs to be developed step by step, most people in here have deep shadows and repress their authentic expression in the name of their spiritual identity, in the name of the spiritual superiority. Do not seek acceptance from the people in this forum, be authentic and watch yourself. Do you get angry at the animal holocaust? They will tell you it is a problem. Do you get angry at children being raped? They will be far more careful about how their phrase their moral nihilism. The Father of Lies is the Father of Lies for a reason. He will use anything to perpetuate himself. Reason, religion, spirituality, philosophy. There is no end to it. You will have far more progress if you step into compassion and self sacrfice, into the suffering of those around you. Here is a good video on the different kinds of Self: People in here seem to be running into the problem of focusing on the Real Self, but are very dismissive of the Actual Self. The Actual Self is essential.

Well, unless Bernie gets the virus himself and dies. He is part of the high risk group.

The simulation was a coronavirus because the people who were doing the simulation knew what was most likely to become the next virus. This is just proof of their competency, not some global conspiracy. Do you really believe someone who plans to infect the world would test it publically a month beforehand so some youtuber can uncover their great conspiracy plan? And sure, Bill Gates was pure orange when he was building Microsoft. People change, the limitations of orange are the very reason why people become green. With these kind of videos you have to ask yourself, at each assertion the person makes: "Is this true?" "Is this the actual explanation for this?" "How does he know this?" And most importantly, observe whether or not there is emotional attachment to a position before you have even verified the facts. This is a huge red flag "I just look at the facts and my brain is putting all the pieces together". But how is your brain doing so? How does it know whether or not it got the pieces together in the right way?

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/97781/scientist-takes-de-block-to-task-over-governments-covid-plans/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/11/coronavirus-expert-warns-infection-could-reach-60-of-worlds-population There is a reason why we take such severe measures against possible pandemics vs seasonal flus. The analysis you have provided is one-dimensional and myopic. Please do some research before you spread misinformation that is especially harmful in this kind of situation.

There is never need to panic, but there is need for preparation and caution: https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-news/97781/scientist-takes-de-block-to-task-over-governments-covid-plans/ Please do not compare a pandemic to a seasonal flu. This does far more harm than good.

It's a great example of the limitations of rationality and intellectualization.

I don't know, Leo looked pretty impressed.

Green.

The WHO now states nCov poses a grave threat to the rest of the world and must be contained before the window of opportunity passes. They are especially concerned of nCov spreading to countries with weaker Health Care Systems. NCov poses a threat not due to the inherent sickness and deadliness of the virus, but it's potential for sociatal and especially economic impact, as we can observe in China already. Here is a time-stamp on the topic we were discussing here about panic vs rational preparation.

I think this nCov outbreak is actually a really good case study for several human dynamics that are prevalent in our current culture. There are a few things I noticed: People have a desire to establish certainty and confidence. People want to know what is going on and what is going to happen, they want to be able to establish a position so that they do not have to wrestle with the ambiguous nature of reality. They will do so even if the data is insufficient, just so they can get an issue out of their mind. Positions tend to extremefy themselves as each is trying to be the opposition of the other. People adopt an unconscious bias when they are skeptical of conspiracy theories. Their reaction to a conspiracy theory is not the seeking of truth, but the deconstruction or debunking of the conspiracy theory. When a conspiracy for example exaggerates the problem, the skeptic will not seek the facts objectively, instead he will seek a position opposite to the exaggeration. The skeptic seeks the position that is on the other spectrum of the extreme. Instead of saying the facts of the matter, they will, in reaction to the exaggeration, downplay the facts. This can be observed in a lot of cultural oppositions: Socialism vs Capitalism Veganism vs Carnivorism Atheism vs Religion Trust in Institutions vs mistrust in Institution etc. Notice how dangerous this can get and what kind of amplification effect there is going on. The example of trust in institutions is an excellent one: One side is skeptical of institutions due to whatever reasons, with that skepticism come irrational conclusions like Anti-Vaxxing, Climate-Change-Denial, Flat-Earthers, Anti-science and so forth. As an opposition the "rational" side will decide to embrace the opposite of that stance, the complete trust in institutions, science, government and so forth. Because their position is reactionary, they lose all the nuance, they lose all genuine points and half-truths in their oppositions viewpoint. The vegan dismisses the ex-vegan who struggled, which makes the ex-vegan anti-vegan, and not just anti-vegan, soon they might actually embrace complete carnivorism. The most extreme opposition, a literal duality. The vegan will deny any possibility that the vegan diet could be a struggle for some people, and the carnivore will deny that plants could possibly be health. It is cholesterol vs "anti-nutrients", there is no inbetween. Look at Joe Rogan, he had to contend with the evidence that a plant-based diet could be healthy, and for the first time he admitted that the evidence actually agrees with that. A month later he goes and tries a full-carnivore diet. He went even more extreme because his ego could not handle giving up his position. The same is true for the atheist who seeks to debunk the religious person. They become defined by the opposition to the religion, their reaction to the irrational. This means that the reaction to the irrational leads to irrationality. The blind skepticism of the irrational position leads to biased cognition. It is not about whether or not God exist anymore, it is about "God exists!" vs "It is irrational to believe God exists!". There is no curiousity, there is no desire for truth anymore. One does not want to know the truth, one wants to destroy the opposition. People "virtue signal" rationality People want to look and come off as rational, collected, superior in thinking, more spiritual and advanced than others. I keep observing this. When someone worries about the nCov virus, in ths forum a very common answer is: "It's a distraction, go back do you spiritual work!" This does not seem to me like genuine advice but rather an effortless dismissal to not have to engage with the problem at hand. "Look at me, I am so advanced I don't even think about these worldly issues anymore, who cares about politics and climate change. We are all eternal and everything is impermanent!". It is so obvious that these kinds of statements aren't helpful to anything. They don't actually encourage someone to go and focus on meditation, and they are not really appropriate as a response to worldly issues. Outside of this community this phenomena manifests as a general tendency to want to come of as reasonable and foreseeing. "No need to worry about any of this because SARS is worse anyways!". Notice that it takes almost no research to say "SARS is worse than nCov!", and notice how ignorantly irrational such a statement is at a point when we simply do not have the data to make such a statement with any confidence. It's all about "You are panicking! You are being irrational. Look how rational I am, I am not panicking at all. I am calm and collected and I have the TRUTH right here!". When this is what you focus on, you are not actually being rational, you are being emotional. Because the rational position is to look and wait, not to make statements that we have no way of yet knowing whether or not they are true.