Scholar

With all your "understanding", I find it surprising that you are so utterly blind to the obvious. But go ahead, you are a master rationalizer. You could rationalize yourself out of any challenge to anything you say. To those who lack the biases you have, it will be utterly obvious what is going on.

I really doubt that this is his motivation to make videos about this. I don't get the impression that this person is motivated by views.

The guy seems pretty genuine, I don't think it has to do with opportunism. Be careful about projecting onto others because you disagree with them. The guy seems genuinely concerned to me.

What we are talking about here will be very difficult to pin down and it will be very easy to simply create rationalizations why each of us are correct. I can create rationalizations why Leo is harmful, and he can give rationalizations why actually no, he did everything he could to prevent this. One thing I want to say from the beginning: I think it is unfair that Leo is making this about his teachings, rather than about, what I think most will agree, the critique of the way he advocates them. We are all here because we found use in his teachings and most of us Love and appreciate Leo. This is not about being against Leo, against his realizations, or anything of that sort of manner. It will become about this if Leo pushes this kind of narrative. I disagree, for me this is purely about what I believe to be some things about Leo that I think are worthy of critique. It is a lot of feedback so I expect Leo to be dismissive of most of it, he is a human after all. And I do believe that Leo will not ever be a perfect human, I don't expect him to be. But I do believe this is important and that the insights we are gaining will be important for future teachers and this community aswell. All of us, including Leo, have an expiration date. If this was not so, our ignorance and blindness would live on forever and the world would remain as it is. Leo is not the pinacle of evolution, nor am I. There will be far wiser people around in the future who will at one glance see the "flaws" in all of us. So firstly, I think one important aspect that is lacking in Leo's videos and here on this forum, is that he often makes it very much seem like the Framework he is using to explain to you things is actually equivalent to that which those frameworks point to. Now, I understand that Leo makes remarks that these are just Frameworks (I think he did so more in the past than now), but I think both in the way he then proceeds to speak about the Framework, aswell as the importance he attributes to them, actually communicate the opposite. He can respond "No, look here and here I clearly said this is all just a scaffolding which in the end you let go of because it isn't Truth!", but actually then he proceeds to treat those frameworks as if they were Truth, rather than as a tool. You can clearly sense this energetically, he has an attachment to these models he has created. I am not saying they are even bad models, but I believe his attachment to them, his need to defend them, his need to communicate them in this way, is unhealthy. Now, Leo can argue that this is not the case, but when we look at his followers and people of this forum, we have clear evidence that actually it is the case that people take on these models as Truth and then proceed to communicate them in a very gospel like manner. Firstly, when someone asks the question, usually people give that person an answer. An answer that is not and cannot be the Truth. Infact an answer that might not even help the person and that if they do adopt as "Truth", might hinder their progress. So what exactly is the purpose of this answer? If it's entire original point was to be a framework to help people get to the Truth, then you have just misused that framework. You did not use it to help this person, you just gave them the answer, as if this was the Truth they needed to hear. Now, I think there is a reason why this is a naturally tendency on this forum. Leo does this all the time too. To me it seems like the natural dynamic resulting in the form of communication, which is pretty much limited to test messages, makes it much more difficult to gage where a person is at. See, if someone asks me a question about the nature of existence in person, I can immediately read from their faces where they are at and what answer would be appropriate. I might tell them "No, this is nonsense, no nature of existence for you, sit down and do X", or I might tell them "Ah okay, well here is what I think will help you, look at it this way for now". I would never tell them "You are just imagining this lol, haha just become conscious of it!". In what world would this help anyone? This kind of advice is appropriate at a very specific point of someones inquiry or journey. And it's not even that useful after that either. But here in this community we don't look at these frameworks that way, we treat them as if they were Truth. So, let's use the framework of "dream" vs "awake". Now, firstly let us be clearly that this is a framework, a very human-centric perspective. A dream has very specific connotations, it carries with it ideas. We use the term "dream", because these ideas are kind of useful in the way of looking at this certain phenomena, actually at a certain point at time. But that's not what the phenomena is. It's not actually "dream", it's not actually "imagination". "God imagining things", is a framework, it has nothing to do with Truth. It has everything to do with human interpretation, used to navigate this landscape. Now the problem I see with Leo and his advocacy is that he very much makes it about the framework and I am not quite certain if he is conscious of this. To me Leo is very attached to intellectualism and he is risiding much of his time in the "left brain mode". Many of the symptoms I see, with the way he behaves and interacts with people, I view as a consequence of this choice to reside in a certain mode of being over the other. Leo will frame this as his authentic self, I will disagree and call it a tendency he has rationalized to fully embrace. I am not trying to judge Leo for this, but I do think it makes him a less holistic and embodied person. I don't quite know how to communicate this to Leo because he is absolutely certain he is correct about his ideas of the authentic self (something I believe he picked up from some of the self-help materials he consumed) and therefore would dismiss this outright. I don't want to go into detail with this, so I will move on to how frameworks are being misused. A good example of frameworks being misused is when we have people talk about Relativity or Moral Unrealness. Now, the realization of Relativity is important, but it is not really Relativity. Again, that's just what your chimp mind uses to frame whatever you experienced, much like the concept of dream or imagination. Many people here don't truly have any sense of relativity, but yet they use this framework to justify and rationlize certain actions. They will tell you "morality is not real", when it suits them and then when something comes biting them in the ass, they quickly use the notions of morality and reframe them. They will call it something else. They will call it "unconsciousness", they will call it "foolish", they might call it anything. It should be very clear what is going on here, but it is not. People have a tendency to do this completely unconsciously. I think that is something we need to really work on as a community. Another unhealthy thing about us is that we often have this attitude of "telling people how it is!". Now I myself experience being pulled into this dynamic, so I do not blame people for doing this. Leo style of advocacy very much is that of "Telling people how it is!", and I think that could work, but I just don't think it is working quite as well as it could. People have a tendency to adopt the energy of their Gurus, and while Leo might not agree that he is a Guru, everything he does communicates that he is indeed a Guru. A special kind of Youtube/Forum Guru. I think anyone who is honest would see this, including Leo. He can say whatever he wants about what he intends to do, but what he actually does has a specific impact that is undeniable. I can tell you "I am not your Guru", but if I then proceed to give you life advice, to tell you the nature of reality, to tell you to continue to listen to me, then what I am if not a Guru? So, some people do adopt Leo's tendencies whether he intends to or not. And part of that is his "Telling people how it is!" attitude. This attitude I don't think stems from anything but what Leo considers his "authentic self". He enjoys communicating this way, and it is very much a Left Brain Mode tendency. To be full of certainty, to put oneself over others. To be judgemental, arrogant and so forth. This isn't Leo's authentic self, this is simply the tendency of the Left-Brain Mode. Both Leo's lack of compassion (or what he would call personal Love) and his issues with not being connected to his body basically stem from him residing way to much of his time in intellectualizations and analysis. Now, I don't expect Leo to really change, he made his life purpose kind of dependent on being an intellectual. But atleast let us be aware of this and the drawbacks this will have. Some of which are lack of embodiment, intellectual defensiveness, lack of social awareness and so forth. Many people here will naturally fall into the category of Intellectualism, as do I, but I want you guys to know that this will lead to unhealthiness and that you can indeed change this. Some of the problems I think stem from Leo's obsession with finding Truth. He has basically indoctronated himself for his entire life that this was the purpose of life. It's all about Truth, truth that is then understood and explained to others. But this is just his game, none of this has the importance he attributes to it. It's all wonderful and good, and maybe obsession is even needed to reach some of the things Leo reached, if he reached indeed anything, but projecting that onto all of reality I don't think is wise. There is an inherent lack of playfulness in the way Leo approaches this and again I think it is due to the Left Brain Mode. The Right Brain approaches this very differently, and it does not take it's frameworks seriously at all. It would look at it's Left Brain brother and kind of smirk at it, patting it on the head. See, it doesn't matter whether Truth is discovered, known, understood or seen. It makes zero difference, because it is the Truth. It won't change anything. While Leo understands this intellectually, as I said, he does not embody this very well. And maybe he won't until the maggots start nibbling on his corpse. This might not matter to Leo, because Leo just wants more Truth. More and more and more. And then he wants to spoon feed all of you this Truth, because he enjoys it. Now there is not a problem with any of this if we are all clear on what is happening and if Leo is conscious of this himself. And I think sometimes he is, but other times he is not.

What do you think is my view? Give a summary.

I think you really need to step back and realize how you are literally rationalizing to a degree that it is becoming childish. Christianity as an ideology is and was tremendously harmful. Of course it was necessary, but we have grown wise enough to let go of it and not repeat the same mistakes. We should criticise Buddhism aswell, and all tradtions. It doesn't matter what tradition it is, if it does something that causes harm, we should poiint that out and seek change. This is basic "whataboutism", google the term. I understand your need to defend Leo and your own identity. Nobody here is "blaming Leo", or demanding him to be perfect. We are simply pointing to areas he can improve in. What you are doing is exceptionally dangerous especially in a spiritual community. I can disagree with Leo, I can criticise what he does. This is what a community does, we take each other into account and we share our perspectives. Your attempt to invalidate anyone who is "speaking against" Leo is unhealthy. I am not pointing fingers or blaming, I have repeatedly said this. I am challenging Leo because I think it is the right thing to do. You guys are behaving like children and this is a serious issue. Stop defending a full grown man from something that is not even done in any bad faith. Most people here are reasonable, concerned and compassionate. We aren't out to get or blame Leo.

By the way, there is a very real possibility that if Leo and similar people do not adjust their way of advocacy, that in the future these ideas might get banned from youtube and similar social media platforms. It's still pretty contained to a small part of spiritual community, but trust me if this went to the public, how many of us here talk with Leo will seem like childsplay. We are trying to help Leo, this community and the future of the spiritual movement. But of course, wisdom often has to be taught through suffering.

When you say "something is simply foolish", you are implying objectivity without being aware of it. You can call it foolish, but in the grand scheme of things, according to Leo's philosophy, it all must be Perfection and Wisdom. There could not possibly be anything foolish in reality.

He can say what he wants, but it's nonsense and he knows this. If there is no such thing as objective morality, there certainly is no such thing as objective foolishness. It's just better PR to say otherwise.

There is no way for you to actually justify this line of reasoning and you know it. A direct consequence of your philosophy is that you cannot say any of this was bad, foolish or ignorant. Who constitutes what a misusage of teachings are? I guess if it's bad PR for you, it must be misusage. Warnings from what exactly? A breaching of your personal moral code that you have established for your own selfish reasons? You can't reason yourself out of this.

These religions actually tell you that if you commit suicide you go to hell. But those that do say committing Jihad grants you heaven actually do lead to people interpreting that as an invitation to blowing themselves up together with others.

It's right here my dude. Now let's stop talking about this it isn't leading any of us anywhere. Thinking about this is a waste of time and energy.

But this idea of blame is completely silly. This isn't about blame, this is about responsibility and compassion. Leo can adjust his behave. Him spouting that he is God and reality is a dream, and morality unreal, in the way he does that, it's completely unnecessary. Leo loves being right, that's fundamentally why he likes talking about all of this. He loves being intellectual, he loves telling you how it is. That's the primary reason why he does communicate this stuff in the way he does. It has nothing to do with some sort of grand strategy of wanting to be the most effective teacher. If he wanted to be effective, he would have long ago found a way to test his teachings with solid feedback. The best way to do this is if you do it in person. He can very much control to a degree how his ideas will be received, it would be absurd to claim otherwise.

I think you have to go back and carefully re-read what I wrote. Some information should not be given out like Leo is doing it and also in the way he is doing it. He is doing deeper deconstruction that Spiritual Teachers will do in person, where they can constantly monitor and adjust the trajectory of the person. If you want to go deep, you cannot do it in a robot way. You can't do it like Leo is trying to do it, at his home talking to a camera and just telling everyone exactly how it is. That's like so bizarrely silly it's mindblowing to me that it's not obvious. This literally doesn't change anything. But again, just keep on shifting responsibility as far away from Leo and yourself as you can. That's the attitude the spiritual community needs right now.

Because to you all of this is nothing but intellectual masturbation. If you actually were to take this path seriously, you would notice that it would start being the case that putting your hands in the hornest nest wouldn't be problematic to you at all. Connor Murphy got hair replacement without anesthesia to prove the point that to him every experience was "Good". You are doing intellectual gymnastics here.

It's Leo's lack of wisdom and social isolation. If he wants to teach he should get in person experience and get the feedback he clearly needs to see. Leo has been completely dogmatic about the way he teaches since years now, all under the umbrella of it being his style and him wanting to not compromise the "Truth". I never said Leo should stop teaching spirituality, your response here is childlike. I am saying he should adjust his teachings and be a responsible human being.

This is unbelievably irresponsible and gaslighting. You guys should have compassions for your brothers and sisters, not blame them because they lost their plot. But of course you don't believe in morality, so who cares if you are being considerate to others. Oh yes, the backtracking. One day you say this is the Absolute Truth, and then when someone discovers the Absolute Truth for themself and kills themselves, it's all just a theory and you should have never been certain. How can people who claim to do consciousness work be so clueless to what they are doing? You are showing zero compassion, zero responsiblity.

Yes, but don't tell this anyone. But also, tell this everyone because I like to be edgy and confront everyone with the Truth.

See, Leo can deal with his ideology because he is an exceptionally cautious person. Someone like Connor will react completely different to the same ideas and experiences. He won't be as cautious. A solid teaching would take this into account. You can't just assume that everyone will deal with all of this like you do because you think you are being reasonable. That's not how any of this works. This is why talking to a camera is so dangerous. You don't get the feedback, you don't see how people react to what you say. You don't see the consequences. You are doing an experiment and are completely blind to what is even going on. You assume that you are being wise, but you are unwilling to even test yourself. That is the opposite of wisdom.

You don't have to lie about anything. The point is that you can't market this to the masses and be edgily truthful because you think bruteforcing ideology into the brains of clueless people will help them. It's not at all insane to leap to your death if you are truly convinced of what Leo is saying. It makes 100% sense to be certain when Leo claims you can only trust your experience. I mean what do you think this leads to if you tell this to a person? Yes, people don't necessarily belief in objective morals. But they do believe in their own mortality, and that other beings exist, and that reality contains suffering, and most importantly they lack conviction that all of reality is Perfection. But sure, just ignore this. If you cannot be wise, reality will make you wise through suffering.

Right, but you also say that other sentient beings don't exist and are only a figment of your imagination. So what is it? Are there sentient beings that are unconscious and get fucked up by his actions or are there not? I thought it was all a dream that you are imagining? See how you will squirm and wiggle so that you can uphold your moral beliefs? You claim that morality is delusional, and then you go about preaching like a catholic priest how things are fucked up. But how can things be fucked up if everything is Goodness? Maybe it's you who has to see the Goodness here, and you are just projecting. None of this makes sense, this is why these things happen. Yes, and this is precisely why this will all be forgotten.

This won't work. You can't just tell someone "Suicide and self harm is wrong! But also, morality is illusiory, everything including rape and torture is Love and Perfection. And by the way you can't die because you are God!". You give this knowledge to a child, he will cut himself with it. This is inevitable. This is serious stuff here, you can't just market it to the masses and expect everything to go well. The disclaimers are nothing but PR games. There is a reason why spiritual traditions that were successful did not spout "radical truth" to everyone on the street, telling them "You are God, I am God, it's all a dream!". If Buddhism did this it wouldn't exist today. Secondly, these traditions all firmly establish and importance in morality. There is a reason for this, it's not just "stage blue absolutism". None of the stuff Leo is teaching has been tested for more than a decade, nor do we even truly know the results. We have a confirmation bias of people just praising him. You have no idea how many people already killed themselves because of this. But better pretend like it's not your responsibility. I'm sure with an attitude like that, these teachings will stand the test of time.

It should not be surprising, the philosophy Leo is using to describe spirituality is even more radical than this. Connor is a good example of this too. If you say everything is Good and Love, it is simply illogical to claim that it is better to do X. This philosophy claims to recognize that torture and rape is Perfection. Not just suicide. This is another reason why you ought to be careful about how you construct this philosophy. See, if people truly believe what you say, the might blow themselves up together with others for Jihad. And then what do you do as a teacher? You say "No no, this is bad PR, this is wrong! When I said everything is Good and Perfect, I actually meant you should behave morally because it's stupid to behave immorally!". Are you sure? See, because you are contradicting yourself, if someone truly believes what you say with actual conviction, he will laugh at you, as Connor does at Leo when he tries to tell him what he is doing is "bad". Clearly in one moment you say it's bad and in the other you say it's Perfection. You tell him whatever fits your agenda. And he will clearly see this if he truly and fully is convinced that reality is perfection, or that it is a dream, or anything else. See, if reality is a dream, every excuse for why you should not torture someone goes out the window. You can pretend like this is not the case, but it is.

Ah, this also happens when you call the animal holocaust a holocaust and people go crazy over it saying it's downplaying what happened in WW2, and then you pull the utlimate jewish holocaust survivor card who calls what happens to animals an eternal treblinka. Ironically it is those who condemn comparing these things to each other who are the ones using these atrocities to justify their own actions.

No, you are overthinking this. Too much analysis. Monkey mind won't help you.