Scholar

This conversation reminded me of some fundamental disconnect I have with people when talking about certain issues. The materialist basically will say "Well, we have evidence that atoms exist, because these models allow us to preduct things", and the idealist of course will respond with this, which should completely kill any argument the materialist can provide: Whatever notion of materialism you have, whatever notion of an atom you have, whatever notion of objectivity and outsidedness (outside of consciousness) you have, it is all consciousness. If you say that any aspect of your consciousness is true, which you have to necessarily do to claim materialism is true, then you admit the material is consciousness/ideal. I came to this conclusion a long time ago by independent contemplation, and I can't quite understand what makes it so that some people just cannot grasp this. To me saying they lack the awareness to see this is unsatisfying. It's so simple, it's so obvious, yet it is being denied. It seems like they are so lost in a certain aspect of consciousness, that they do not even know what consciousness is. When they refer to the material, they do refer to consciousness, of course because they could not refer or point to anything but consciousness, yet the entire play is to pretend that it isn't consciousness. It's to say that consciousness is not consciousness. You cannot even escape this, it's obvious that you cannot escape it, it's self-evident. Yet, it is not seen. It's like the materialist is already an idealist, he just doesn't know it. He cannot be anything but an idealist, and anything he could possibly believe will be idealistic. Really, what is happens is that he contracted the ideal to a subset, to a concept, which he can then deny. But what is actually ideal is all of that which he could even claim to be true, or deny to be true. How can this be resolved? Is it just an issue with people being too immersed in the conceptual, and being unable to see the conceptual for what it is? A lot of this kind of dogmatism and basically delusion seems to come from people being too close to whatever concept they believe. It's like they live from that concept, they are like a fish in the water, not aware of the existence of the water. It is frustrating because it's something you just can't explain to people, because the explanation is so simple, yet they do not grasp it. They are completely deaf to it.

You are approaching this from the wrong angle. You are in the layer of the conceptual, and you are attempting to create a conceptual framework that you then will conceptualize to be the "real". That's basically what you are unaware of. Forget about direct and non-direct consciousness, focus exactly on what it means when you say "outside" (of consciousness) or "reality". The fundamental issue is you are not even aware what it means and what you are doing when you say something is "outside". That entire feeling you have of something existing outside of your consciousness, what do you think that is? It's a feeling. If you say that feeling is real, then reality is feeling, then reality is ideal. You cannot escape this. Fundamentally, anything you will ever conceptualize will be ideal, it will be made of consciousness, and if you really feel like that different aspect of consciousness is reality, then that's just another "thing" in consciousness. What you are basically doing when you say the world is material is like saying "The world is red!". You would call redness a perception, but you fail to realize that your entire sense of reality is a perception, including any physicalist and materialist notions. All of them are just made of mind, and the irony is, you call out and say "But that's reality, that is not mind, that is reality outside of mind!". Your concept is self-defeating because you say something is outside of your mind, yet you claim to know about it and say that it is reality. Whatever you will ever conceptualize, including the concept of something that you cannot perceive or that is outside of you, will be within you, and thus it will be ideal. All of that is still mind, you cannot escape this. You have to see that, rather than trying to create more conceptual frameworks. You have to realize that what you are claiming to be the case is literally absurd, it's a self-deception. You are pretending that your own ideas are not consciousnesss, that your own feelings about reality (which is what the problem here is) are not feelings, that they somehow transcend your mind. And even the notion of transcendence of mind is something within mind. This is the first step, once your truly realize that, you will see that your notion of reality, in the way your frame it as an mind opposed to a world, is something that is happening right here, in this existence that you are. That this is existence, and that your ideas do not give rise to existence, but rather that they are within existence. Then you will recognize the Unity of Existence. Not because you think that to be the case, but because it will be obvious to you that it is the case, and that everything you previously did was a game you were playing with yourself, and that you continue to play them game even now, as you talk about existence and Unity and so forth.

Maybe we should burn you rather than the books.

You make the mistake of projection. You yourself have done spirituality via irrational dogmatism, you have adopted beliefs in terms of outwards attention, as you say even today "That convinces me, that doesn't convince me!". You are a believer who is seeking the right belief. And now you discovered rationalism and materialism, which "convinces you more". But you are not actually being rational, you are just going from one system of faith to the next. For you I would actually recommend philosophy. Instead of looking at the world and testing certain belief systems, look at your own and try to justify them. Read some Hegel. The issue right now is not only that you cannot justify matierialism, you do not even know what it means to rationally justify something. You do not merely not see the limits of rationality, you are not even engaging in rationality. You cannot fathom that someone starts at rationality, and spents years and years studying philosophy and science and to then come to conclude that the world is not materialistic. Because that's not how it was for you. You were a silly dogmatist who realized how dogmatic he way, and now you are projecting your non-sense onto everyone as if you had discovered reason for the first time. You are lagging behind on hundreds of years of philosophy and science, which is the great irony here. All you know is dogmatically adopting belief systems via "I am convinced by this. I am not convinced by this.". You cannot justify materialism because it's just another belief you have. Now, go and actually learn what reasoning is, study philosophy and science for 10 years, in a non-dogmatic way, read hundreds of books, and come back here and talk to us about your materialistic nihilism.

No it's not on the fans, misinformation is misinformation, Rogan knows very well that his opinion is respected, he even invites scientists to talk to with many of them being selected to confirm his biases. It's dishonest and silly to think that people don't watch Joe Rogan to get information. A responsible human being will react to reality how it is, not command that their intention is different and therefore reality can kiss their ass. Either way, Joe Rogan is a misinformation machine, and he is doing more damage than CNN ever did. That's a fact, whether or not people should or shouldn't listen to him, or whether or not it's Rogan's fault is completely irrelevant. Joe Rogan is undermining science all the time and contributing to the very culture that leads to people trusting him over institutions or scientific consensus. What is more important right now is that humanity gets their shit together and Joe Rogan is leading people into the opposite direction of where they need to go.

Yes, it's beyond realization even. Reality is so Divine and Impossible, that all that can exist is this, without any fooling. That this is not fooling, that it is not illusion, because reality does not require illusions. Reality has no limitation. This is Absolute. The ants mind us Truth, Absolute Truth. There is no untruthfulness, unless it is true that there is Untruthfulness. The Divine, the Impossible, the Groundless Ground is found in the mundane, because the mundane is the Infinte, it is the Impossible, it is the Divine. See, when you lacked the realization you had, that was still Absolute, that was still Truth. Nothing about your realization is more real than your non-realization. And when you realize this, you realize that the Christian singing in the church or the Muslim praying on his carpet, fearing God, is Divinity. It is not Ignorance, it is Absolute Truth. The Contradiction is intentional. There needs to be no fooing of anything, there needs to be no trickery, no illusion, no depth. There has never been any trickery, because the finite is the infinite. Nothing in existence is removed or seperated. Existence simply is. See, all of this, is just more of it. See how it continues, and it continues, can you see the groundess ground? It is right here, the abyss, the infinite. Free Will. It's so free, it could forget what you just realized for Eternity, and it would not be an issue. It does not need a Ground, it never had a Ground. And any realization you will ever have, will be your attempt to Ground yourself. But look, look and see the Abyss, that it is even more impossible than you could have ever imagined. That it is so impossible, not even impossibility captures it, that it is so uncapturable, that it is captured.

You are getting it all wrong my friend. You not only can create and imagine anything you want, you already did. You already created absolutely everything in the precise way you want it to be, there is nothing more to create.Your human existence is part of your perfect creation and imagination, your limitation already is the creation of your will out of thin air. Everything that is here, right now, is your creation, including you complaining about how you cannot imagine this or that. That is part of your imagination. Your contracted human ego is not your will. Your Will is Free, it is Absolute, it is Divine, and it created this out of thin air. You have created everything never seen before in existence, into existence. The prove that you are God is that you want prove for God. That is your Will. You Will was to forget what you are, forget your power. That is your Power. Just look at your Creation. Look at these colors. Never before in have these colors been seen, nothing like them existed before, and you created them from Nothing. They should not exist, but they do, because your Wisdom endless.

Rogan is doing more damage than CNN, by far. Rogan is a misinformation machine.

Whataboutism.

it's interesting because the first thing I thought of when the billionaire said that nobody cares about this issue and that we first need to take care of ourselves was you when you basically said the same thing about animal rights as a response to advocating for personal responsibility.

I think alot of people are still very much grounded in orange, it's kind of hard to escape that considering our culture pulling towards it. So naturally people with orange-green tendencies will be more popular today. However, more healthy examples, and people who I think are more grounded in green, would be people like Earthling Ed, Joaquin Phoenix or Dr. K from HealthyGamerGG. Other than that I have a hard time of thinking of people right now. If you think of the three people I mentioned, you will notice that all of them would probably be more or less comfortable crying on camera. Now, imagine Hasan or Vaush crying on camera. They would absolutely cringe at themselves. Oh Sam Seder is probably a better example of green too, however I view him also to have tons of orange inside him. It's better than Vaush and Hasan though for sure. And Mr Girl of course I would consider green pretty much atleast from what I have seen, also much better than Vaushan.

I don't really go about it that way at all. I basically get a sense of how green they are based on how I intuit their progress on all the different lines of development, so it is an absolute category not a relative one. When I analyse it that way, especially people like vaush and hasan are more grounded in orange than green. To me Hasan and Vaush are really, really bad examples of stage green, well of course because I don't think hey are stage green. Pointing to them and saying they are green misrepresents I think what is envisioned by the model to be someone grounded in stage green.

The reason why they are so popular is because they aren't even half green, they are orange with a little bit of green imo. You guys categorize these things completely differently from me and I am not sure how you are going about it. Hasan is extraordinarily superficial, you can just see orange all over his personality and values. The same is true for vaush and his antagonistic debate bro values and hyper-intellectualism without real concern for truth. When Spiral Dynamics was established there was no internet culture. Again, the internet is a game changer in terms of dynamics. The model is outdated and would require re-adjustments.

What did you enjoy about this? I still am surprised that you are so attracted to Hasan and Vaush they are insufferable to me.

Sure, but many people will feel the same way about Leo for example. Just because it didn't help you doesn't mean it doesn't help others. I think people are quite biased in these regards.

I thought defund the police was extremely unpopular in poor black neighbourhoods, precisely because they are the ones who will suffer first as a consequence of it. Is this not correct?

This is not true, animal suffering firstly is far more prolonged in say something like factory farms. But in cultures like China, it is not only that they do not care about causing suffering to animals, people who believe in for example chinese medicine, actively seek to inflict as much pain as possible to animals before consuming them, because it is believed to be healthy and benefitial. We are talking about skinning animals alive, letting them suffer like that for days and then cooking them alive. And we are not just talking about a few cases here, we are talking about millions of animals yearly. I am saying that you are biased towards human, and that you are not genuinely looking for suffering. Would you rather experience the suffering of the animals that are being tortured in China, or even in factory farms, or would you rather experience the suffering of the few humans who get tortured in mexico? These things are not proportional, yet your attention very much is on the humans, because of your bias. However, there is an aspect even deeper here. You think the suffering on this planet is all the suffering that exists. But the reality is, even if you remove all suffering from this planet, there will still be infinite suffering, of infinite beings. And you created all of it. And not only did you create it, you said to yourself that you will experience it all, for eternity. That's what it means to be selfless.

If you are God, don't be worried about a few people in Mexico. Right now we are torturing billions of beings every year, in a systematic way that you probably have no issue contributing to, which within a few years causes more suffering than all humans who ever lived experienced combined. And not only that, simply look at nature. Beings get eaten alive all the time, trillions of them. The fact that you are focusing on Mexico is showing that you are still very much human, and very much biased towards your own identity, if your concern is that you will suffer.

It seems like my intuition was correct, Mr Girl hates Dr. K and basically thinks he is doing the opposite of what he is doing: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1263653013?t=00h26m29s

I think precisely because Mr Girl does not compromise is actually what communicates something really important. I don't think he is convincing the maximum amount of people, though I think he is showing those who are ready a very particular aspect that if he did compromise would maybe not be communicated as effectively. It's precisely that they resist him so much that demonstrates the point of what he is trying to communicate. He didn't go into the conversation trying to convince people of anything, he isn't trying to get a point across. His point is that he is authentically self-expressing. And that is the point. Everyone who is ready to get it, gets it. Everyone else could not possibly get it. If he "convinces" them, he would be doing what he is trying people to show not to do. There has to be the "Aha" moment, and it cannot happen if there is manipulation going on. It's a meta communication so to speak. He could not possibly communicate what is he communicating if he wasn't embodying it. The embodiment is the point. And that means being authentic, without compromise, without an attempt to manipulate for the sake of convincing others. See, the whole idea of "We must communicate effectively to convince as many people as possible!", is a Tier 1 solution. It is not solving the actual problem. It is treating the symptom, and actually making some symptoms worse. The actual solution is a quantum leap, it is not playing games, it's not changing positions. I would have not seen what I see now if he had tried to be "convincing" and "more palatable".

Yes Dr. K is also great at this, although I think it's not quite the same thing. I'd have to think about it some, but in the thread about vaush vs mrgirl you can see my thoughts on why I thought Mr Girl was revealing something really important. I didn't really see it at first either, I even said so in the thread, but then I watched more of him and thought about it more and it really crystalized something in me that has been kind of growing over the past few years. Some dynamics really became very clear to me in myself.

Everyone who can needs to be the bridge between stage orange and green. I think Destiny is doing a good job at this, he is basically pulling people towards the center and bridging a gap that other people are not willing to. The way I see it is that we had a strong pull into green, so much so that there is too big of a disconnect between those people and those who were left behind on the spiral. Social media makes this 10x worse, aswell as leading to people evolving through the spiral without integrating lower stages, therefore creating shadows. We have a thread on Vaush discussing something with Mr Girl. I think we really need to get away from what Vaush is doing, and really start to adopt Mr Girls way of communication, minus the provocateur stuff.

Like I said I just don't think you are actually addressing the symptoms, rather you are throwing more fuel into the fire. And it's not that you are approaching this from a conspiratorial angle, but that is what you will look like to the people whose perspective you are invalidating. I think I made my position clear. I think there is no fascist threat, and if it is implicit, it will be so for both the left and the right, at which point we are really just talking about polarization and radicalization. I think talking about all of this as if there was a fascist uprising is doing more harm to the conversation than if you focused your efforts on other issues. Right now, the doctor is making the symptoms worse, the patient is about to enter cardiac arrest because of the incompentency of the medical personnel.

I completely disagree with this. I don't think fascism is a threat whatsoever, the only way it will become a threat, on both the left and the right, will be due to division. There is alot of "fascism" implicit in popular left wing thought to, just give a listen to Vaush and people like him. This has nothing to do with people being secretly manipulated by some small group of genius fascist, this is a result of the social dynamics playing out at this current moment. No "calling out" fascism, or identifying it, or whatever you want to do about it, will do anything. Most of it is a complete waste of ressources and time, and much of it just makes the problem worse because you just sound like a conspiracy nut job from the point of view of a right wing individual. I think the issue here is our larger cultural context, and I think it is delusional to think that any of this has to do with fascism whatsoever. Fascism is a symptom, not a cause, and even if you remove and forbid all of fascistic thought, there will be some other dysfunctional narrative and ideology that will take root.

The issue isn't political scientists having trouble identifying fascism, but the public identifying fascism. The reason why calling out fascism has become unproductive, and completely irrelevant, is because people have misused this dynamic. Why do we feel it is so important to identify fascism? Because fascism is extremely harmful. Most people don't use it that way, most progressives identify things as fascistic because they want to condemn it, rather than the other way around. By having normalized calling everything fascist, the word has been rendered meaningless colloquially. It holds no "force", you cannot enforce social norms this way anymore because the only people who will take you seriously are progressives, who are not the people you seek to change, Most people just roll their eyes if you use that word, and it's only going to get worse. I know people who are stage orange trump supporters, and all of them don't give two shits about whether you tell them they are fascist, because they think you are completely insane. Because sadly the progressives are just going completely overboard with this. It creates the opposite reaction, where people start to think that the fascists might be right because of the, from their POV, insane progressives who will call anything fascism. You are making an enemy out of half the nation, and you are literally uniting them. You are just feeding the monster. People are not fascists, they have been lied to. If it was the case that the election was stolen, it is actually the current government that is fascistic, and it would be completely justified from a point of view of upholding democracy to use violence to protect your constitutions from corruption. That is literally anti-fascist. It makes no sense to call these people fascists. They are delusional, but just because they are willing to use force to protect democracy, from their point of view, does not mean they are fascists. Fascists don't care about elections. So either way you are misusing the term. The amount of actual fascists is negligable and a complete non-issue. You have a social responsibility to contribute to social harmony, which you are not. None of your Spiel is working. You can't use shaming on half of american. Using shame on stage orange individuals is just silly, they don't give a shit about your shaming tactics. They are spitting in your face, and infact they will hate you even more for wanting to shame them for what they belief. There is no fascist threat, that's just delusional. Isn't it funny how both sides call each other fascists? You both live in the same delusional paranoia, and you are literally just making it worse and worse. The real threat here is division between groups of people with opposing viewpoints. You lost the ability to communicate, you lost the ability to listen to each other. Your mind is clouded by fear and paranoia, and the only tool you have is say "THIS IS BAD, REMOVE IT FROM SOCIETY!". Good luck with that.