Scholar

Yes, I never made such a claim.

I think you should question why it seems so unbelievable to you that someone has different values. Of course from your perspective, it is possible that it's me suppressing aspects of myself, but it could also be the case that I just genuinely evolved as a human being. I have no interest in buying these goodies. I am not depriving myself of anything, like you are not depriving yourself of anything when you don't go to church every sunday. Yet, a stage blue person (from 200-400 years ago) might find that utterly incomprehensible. It's not about what's bad, it's about what I value. People underestimate how ingrained their value system actually is, and how truly relative it actually is. In a thousand years, if humans will have evolved sufficiently, the kind of goodies you are talking about will seem utterly absurd to them. It's like having a toilet made of gold, it's just absurdly unnecessary and silly. The fact that there is this war of values, where you struggle to decide between whether or not to save someones life and buying a golden toilet, should tell you how unevolved you truly are. And I'm no exception to that, I am unevolved aswell compared to what people will be like in a thousand years. But I am atleast past the point where I care whatseover about the lifestyle Tate is advocating for. I don't find the women attractive which he finds attractive, I don't find his house attractive, I don't find much about his lifestyle attractive. If I had a magic wand, not many elements of his life would carry over to my perfect life. Imagine how absurd it would feel to you to shit on a toilet of gold. To me the goodies and lifestyle you speak about is exactly like that. It's just silly, I don't want a toilet made of gold, even if I could have one. I'm not depriving myself of anything when I don't have a toilet of gold.

Well, your values are your values, it's hard to get beyond what you have been culturally indoctrinated with. My values are such that I would not even enjoy these things, there are uninteresting to me, and would probably to a large degree contradict more important values I have. I wouldn't even want to be such a person, because I value other things more so. I would genuinely rather spend my money on helping animals than some fancy car. The thing here is, you will probably think "Oh wow, he is just virtue signally selflessness!", which from an orange perspective will be the only way you could comprehend that kind of decision. But from my perspective, it is not even a sacrifice. It would go against my integrity to own such things, and I would genuinely enjoy for example saving some animals. It's not even about me thinking it's the right thing to do, it's simply that my values have moved on from what I had when I was a teenagers. It's hard to fake the values you have. I never said you can't have this or that, I am telling you, if you had grown beyond these values, you wouldn't even want to have these things, genuinely. Not because of some sort of ideology, but because of your core values. So, these things are unbelievable to you precisely because of the values that you hold. To me, they are not enjoyable, nor are the unbelievable. They are a waste of my time on this earth, and go against higher values that I might have. I have no interest in driving a lamborghini, I value petting dogs more than I would value driving a lamborghini.

There are some useful nuggets you can extract from him, it's basically just stage orange to the max, though if your value system grew beyond that, you will probably find his life-style very unattractive, aswell as his general attitude. He will actually be useful for you to see how much orange values you still have inside you, if you are willing to be honest with yourself. One very important lesson to learn is the trap of ideology. Tate has basically got himself stuck as far as development goes precisely because he has created such a sophisticated ideology, that is so consistent. You can see the same happening with Stage Blue Christians or Muslims, like presuppositionalism. They will put huge effort into justifying their worldview, and making it consistent. The problem with intelligence is that it is a tool your ego will use to serve it's values. So, whatever values you have, the more intelligent you are, the better you will be at justifying those values to yourself, as well as being able to dismantle any challenge to your world view. This is why consciousness is more fundamental, and more important, than intelligence. If you are not conscious, you do not know what your intelligence is even doing, and you cannot even gain the distance to truly be in charge of it. Andrew Tate might as well be a robot, programmed in a particular way. He is a slave, he just doesn't realize that his ego tricked him into believing that he is the master.

Watching the first episode rn.

So, should we all watch Carnivale over the next week and then make a thread to discuss it?

Don't tell me what to do, devil!

Indeed, but I simply lack the consciousness, intelligence, experience, and wisdom to see this.

Julius Caesar basically was the Hitler of Rome.

It's not just a guy, it's Leotl!

Oh no, that's exactly what Connor Murphy said.

Sadly we are unable to have a civilized conversation, I wish you all the love anyways!

What? So you will invalidate anyone's opinion as long as they don't correlate to yours or the people you deem to be authentic? You are clearly dogmatic about this. You are just ad-homineming me. Telling me that I am stupid doesn't really point out to me where I am wrong, and you still haven't even bothered to try to assess if your own interpretation of my position is correct. I think your attitude is part of the problem, you are unwilling to engage with me, and all you can do is call me bigotted and stupid. It's so clear that you have attachment issues here, not me. You are defending your identity, otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to be this cruel and dismissive.

You assume that everyone who has gender identity issues has the same experience, which is already fundamentally flawed. Either way, try to do a good faith job at summarizing my position, and the reasoning that has lead to it. And by the way I know people who have had pretty much the experience I described, you can probably find such reports on youtube as well.

Nobody is going to get enlightened from that series, no matter how much one watches it. Leo thinks it's so obviously enlightening because he is tripping balls. It's like when someone is stoned and reads much more into a movie than it actually is saying. He didn't get enlightened watching that shit, he is feeling high and watching it, and then attributing that high to the series.

His comments about watching that series over and over to realize one is God is especially strange, seems like the advice someone would give who is in a bit of a delusional episode, where one is unable to actually feel how what one says will be perceived. I wouldn't worry too much, Leo usually is grounded pretty well, but even he is not immune to such things.

But usually he kept his manic episodes private, the only exception was when he did that tripping video, but even that was planned and calculated. So it seems like this is different.

No I did not, I described the experience of young women who might be confused about whether or not they have gender dysphoria, or be pushed towards certain identities as a result of their suffering. Look, if you want to point out a flaw in my understanding that's fine, but at least first understand my understanding, because otherwise you are just talking to an imaginary friend. If you want to show to me that you understand my position, try to summarize and explain it to me in your own words. Tell me what you think I think, and I will point out anything you might have misinterpreted.

I never described the trans experience in my post, and your interpretation of my position is incorrect. I have no interest in conversing with you if you continue being bad faith.

It does come off a little manic.

I'm not even sure what point you are making, in the end you have to give some sort of reason that has explanatory power for why there is this difference in men vs women. A hypothesis which can provide an explanation for that should be rationally preferable, no?

It could be social acceptance, but I intuit that to be not the case. I don't see why acceptance in particular would only apply to females, but I can think of reasons for why females might fall for these kinds of ideologies. We know suicide rates for young teenage girls has skyrocketed since the advent of social media, and it seems that there is a particular effect it has on them. We are also creating a kind shadow out of femininity culturally speaking, and the arguments provided by the woman in the video seem valid to me, with the psychology of teenage girls working different from boys (with the cutting aspect for example). Women already feel disadvantaged in society due to them being women, and we are continually spreading the message that to be a woman means to be fundamentally oppressed, and to be a man is to be fundamentally privileged and oppressive. And when we are talking about child history of dysphoria, I am assuming they mean that the teenagers themselves, who want to transition, do not report any child history of dysphoria, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to assert that there is no child history of dysphoria. I think MrGirl is almost spot on as far as this question goes, and people who are in denial about this seem to be borderline delusional to me. Certainly we cannot justify the confidence with which current claims about the underlying reality of this phenomena are made, yet when that confidence is questioned, you are automatically viewed as bigoted and transphobic. That alone should be a huge red flag. If I use my empathy, and I try to put myself in the position of a young teenage girl, I can see why I would want to change my gender. Let's say I am not on the level of attractivness as other women are, and with social media, I am constantly confronted about this. I already hate my body because I am going through puberty, society is telling me that women are oppressed, and not only that, the culture I live in communicates to me that being cys is being boring. I can see my friends on social media making fun of cys people, and trying to differentiate themselves from the white "normies", which is basically considered the bigotted oppressor class. So, I am depressed, I probably hate my body, I hate my role in society because everyone talks about victimhood, and I now have the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon and become special just by claiming that I am non-binary, or whatever else. Once I am, I not only have found an explanation for why I feel like I do not fit into society, I now am part of another group which will respect my identity as it is fundamentally protected within that culture. In fact, I would be very surprised, with my knowledge of how teenagers work, if it was not that case that a significant portion would be doing the gender thing in the same exact manner as people did with the emo, goth and so forth movements when we were young. That's just what teenagers do, especially the ones who are outcasts in society. The fact that the advocacy is moving towards self-ID just further indicates to me that this is not really grounded in the phenomena of gender dysphoria. Combine this with the fact that people can create their own echo chambers today, and can receive significant social validation for what they do, and you basically harm individuals because, something which should have been just an exploration of identity, suddenly becomes a dysfunction they carry into their adulthood. Remember, we didn't have that as children, because we didn't have social media. When we were being stupid teenagers, we didn't get world-wide validation from it, we didn't get to feel incredibly special, with people incentivized to signal to us their support and love for our delusions. As a teenager I had a phase where I bought into conspiracy theories, imagine if I had social media back then, with an endless ocean of people trying to validate what I am saying. Rather than a phase, it could have become a permanent part of my identity, that's the danger of social media. The issue I have is that, teenagers, and young adults, have all sorts of reasons for adopting certain identities, but the only reason that you are allowed to consider is whatever falls in line with the cultural dogma. You can't doubt their motivations, as if teenagers and children we wise. Teenagers and children are extremely impressionable, they are very susceptible to these kinds of cultural movements. But of course, if you lack genuine empathy for individuals, you don't care what will happen to them. It's far more comfortable to go along with the cultural dogma, and not to question it at all. In my eyes, most of what is happening within this sphere is extremely toxic, it's precisely the opposite of growth. It's so sad because, we realized that identities are constructed, and instead of realizing that we ought not to be so attached to them, we instead did the precise opposite. We created new categories, new identities, and we are more attached to them than we have ever been before. There is so much self delusion too, people genuinely think they are gaining happiness from constructing these identities. But we all know that once you threaten them, they will flail around in fear, because of how attached and needy their are towards that contracted identity. They are like hyper-masochistic guys, all you need to do to threaten their entire existence is to question their identity. This of course will lead to suffering, and that suffering eventually will lead to wisdom. But it will be easier for those individuals if they have people who can lead them towards the next steps, because with no alternative, wisdom is not guaranteed.

I have never said it matters that they aren't what the general population is, and I already explained to you the issue. If you want to engage in good faith read my initial comments again, and if I see that you have bothered to comprehend what I am trying to communicating, then I might continue this conversation, otherwise we are only going in circles. To question the nature of a symptom should be a valid thing to do, and you paint it as if it was transphobic. You don't engage with the substance of what I am saying, and you seek to undermine and invalidate it by moralizing it.

If it was the acceptance of coming out, we would have seen the same among trans women (males who transition to women), no? That's a pretty strong argument, especially if historically we never saw this as much in females, aswell as the child history of dysphoria lacking within the teenage girls who now transition. Sure we need more data, but to question the validity of these kinds of claims is viewed as taboo in our culture, which I think is detrimental to the individuals we are trying to treat. With such arguments you are undermining the trans experience. If it didn't matter what you are, then people wouldn't be killing themselves and going for surgery to change their bodies. They don't do this for fun, they do this because they are suffering. You are moralizing this too much in my opinion, this isn't about what's better or worse, this is about the root issue of the suffering of individuals, and the harmful solutions we might be presenting to them. The reason why it woudl be problematic is because it does not address the root of the suffering. I am not interested in debating you, as I am noticing you have no interest in engaging with what I am saying and seem to be personally invested in arguing this, or your personal experience.

I can't find you all the examples I have heard in conversations, but Destiny made a manifesto where he collected a bunch of e-mails he got, which I think might give us a good picture of what's going on: I think it's harmful, because we as a society are the ones who make women hate themselves, and then we give them the solution: Become a man. To me this is unhealthy. The thing is, if you run away from self-hatred, you will never fix the root issue by trying to deny the reality of who you are. I am not a fan of self-delusion/self-suppression, it's a temporary and unsustainable fix. In my opinion the answer is self-love. We should be critical of people's choices in regards to how they escape their own suffering, because we are the ones creating that suffering, aswell as the ones offering the seeming solutions. If someone used cocaine to make themselves feel better about a situation, the loving thing is to critically engage with that choice, not to just say "It's not my problem, let everyone do what they think is right!". This will not work, and this kind of attitude is the very reason why there is so much suffering in this world. We are not just individuals, we live in a collective. So, who cares? True, a society with no compassion and love will say exactly that. But we should care, because that's how society works. We need to care about each other, and ourselves, and alot of what we do today is fueled not by love and compassion, but rather fear and dogmatism. Another dimension is that, if everyone can just switch roles, in the end, we don't even need to find solution. We can surpress and destroy the feminine because, it's a choice, so everyone who doesn't like being feminine, can just be a man. Our "solution" gives us the ability to ignore the root issue. Like, if there was a pill to make everyone happy, we wouldn't need to care about anything anymore. We would give those who poor, exploited and disadvantaged a pill, and everything would be okay. We would never need to address the reasons for their suffering.