kurt

"Before" is just a word, difficult to express infinity, but we can infer infinity by looking at what we know - objects. OK, think about it. For the sake of this let's just take you to be this person. When I say you, I mean you, the person, body, mind. You came into existence didn't you? You were born, you grow and you know by inference and experiences of the nature of the object world that you will die. Is this true? Yeah, 'course it is! So this is the definition of objects. Look closely and all you will find is objects, changing all the time. But what is the one constant in amongst all of this? Consciousness isn't actually "real" either (as an object), but there is an "aspect" (for want of a better word) that is constant in among all this change. That aspect is "knowing". If there was no knowing, how could there be a known?

You were before you were alive. No, the body is known to you, it's an object of your knowing, so it can't be you. The body changes all the time, think about it: Is your body the same body you had when you were a child? The obvious answer is no, it has changed, so in this sense it is unreal. But the I that has known your body through the lifespan has never changed, knowing can never not be there, so it is real. You are real. From moment to moment in your own experience you can verify that knowing is continuous, yet the objects you know are not, they come, stay a while and dissapear in you. Your body and mind and memory don't "have" consciousness, because these are inert matter, meaning not sentient. You, consciousness had a new born body. You don't have to remember it because memory is just another object known to you. If you can see memory now and you know that it's an object known to you, then we can infer that you saw yourself back then as a new born. Logically, how can you refute this?

Zero sum means you have passed through "the dark night of the soul". I understand that nothing can be changed here, so I let go and am focusing on looking inside myself for freedom. Until you pass through the dark night you will keep dreaming and imagining this is all real. Not everyone is up for that, and everyone is allowed their definition of enlightenment. But it's not a matter of choosing either side, because there is universal laws to consider, and if we continue to break them we will never be enlightened. It's a learning curve, doing ones bit, continuing to live ones life purpose but letting go of control. There, 2 cents from me

@Jhonny Depends what you mean by ego? Everyone is doing their bit, their absolutely necessary bit to keep this all going. Sure, our egos get involved and takes credit sometimes, in others most of the time, and a very few are completely taken over by their ego. But the ego is not the one doing the inventing and creating, it's SEEMS that way apparently, but that's not what is happening. The human mind and it's ego have been designed for the purposes of serving the creation and everyone is doing their part to perfection. Everything you see here is being done by itself, for the sake of itself. Those few of us who have come to the end our learning here and who understand that there is nothing to be gained from life and it's zero sum rule now have a desire not to create, but to understand what this life is. That is also part of the creation and something that we have always needed in the world. There have always been enlightened people and unenlightened people. Hoping this helps, please don't bust my ego for saying this, it wasn't me!! Lol ?

@John Flores John, life is not pointless , it's meaningless . There is a big difference ! Delusion and ignorance is part of the beauty. Ask yourself why you are depressed, it's because you want to be here! You love life, it's a beautiful place and you know you're lucky. I think the only problem is you're expecting too much from it. Enjoyment is the essence of enlightenment, liberation from the mind making meaning for you and a leap to making your own meaning. I love life, you have to love life, yourself and people to become enlightened. Otherwise life IS pointless. Life is sacred to me. Notice the difference in our views at this point. Your view next to my view. Can you see that your view is not the truth? Neither is mine mind you lol. But I created my view, so did you. Which one do you want? Liberation to create and act upon, or be created and acted upon by others suffering? You have a choice in the matter, but that's the only choice you have

@John Here

@Sleepwalker I just had another thought while re-reading your OP. Self development is not at odds with self acceptance. Sometimes we think of self acceptance as being acceptance of all our patterns and problems and we should just put up with it. But it's not like that. Self acceptance means loving yourself enough to do all this self improvement because you believe you are worth it. But when we start to look at the whole system of doing self help it can start to seem overwhelming. One of the things we all need is a sense of personal boundaries and being realistic about what we can control and what we cannot control. Once you understand what you can control (by letting go of outcomes and just working towards your goals in a patient and disapassionate way, then things begin to clear up in the mind and it starts to make sense. "Things" like looks wont provide happiness, and if we think that things like looks provide happiness then we have a personal boundary issue because were looking in the wrong place for happiness. So, to fix that boundary, take the attitude that nothing can be done by negative means, everything should be accepted as it is and then plans mande and habits put into place to achieve those goals. And if the expected results dont come you just let it go, accept that this is all reality has to offer at the moment, life and my body obviously has other plans, and continue to keep working on it while enjoying the process and your life and not beating yourself up over it all. But if your plans do work out successful then happy days! Either way, you win! So dont stress, you only live once

@Sleepwalker Youre not being annoying I don't see any problem with having a little bit of junk food now and then, don't you agree? But if you eat as much as you want you will pay for it in terms of well being (physiological). Happiness on the other hand is an attitude towards life. I would imagine the balance between cultivating a happy attitude towards life and eating healthy while spicing it up now and again sounds fine. Don't confuse happiness with physical and mental well being.

@mr lenny It's maybe an expression of the ego's need for a quick fix. Yes, but I don't believe them. You can look it this as another opportunity to practice, or you can let it bring you down by getting frustrated with it. If you look at this an another opportunity to practice then you can see that this IS the path to enlightenment itself, disidentification with finite objects. Notice the thought. Think about it, think about how it's not really doing anything positive for you. Hold this information up in light of your highest values and goals and then create a more positive thought and literally burn that new idea into your mind every time you notice the negative thought. Eventually the thought will go away and be replace by a new tendency to think positively about spiritual work.

@Whatever In my opinion you don't need all that meditation, mostly because of the fact as you have rightly stated the ego can get addicted to the states, which is a problem. Half an hour to an hour per day is enough to get a sense of dis-identification. The rest of the day should be spent doing regular things while contemplating the knowledge as the ego comes up against it's usual issues in life. Just 2 cents from me.

Thank you

Excellent! It works because in the process of talking about your problems, we're making them "not-self" by objectifying them. I hope things work out for you!

@John Flores I'll give you my ideas on another post so I don't clog this one up. But for now we are both the illusion and the reality: the objects are me, but I am not the objects. We will always have an ego, we are awareness plus 3 bodies. No enlightened person ever got rid of their ego. Enlightenment is for the mind, its not for you, you are already enlightened, it's all about "what's my ego doing?" . I have no idea what these guys are doing with this frog powder, nor do I have any interest but it is interesting to follow, it's upto them if they want to mess around killing their ego for a half hour interview with themselves. But that doesn't mean I disagree with it, each to their own. That's a healthy ego! Try becoming enlightened without a healthy ego, your mind all over the place, agitated, deluded, projecting painful thoughts, unable to sit still or think about things for long periods of time. Its difficult for a mind like that to understand that it is awareness. There is always exceptions to the rule, the only extreme case of an unhealthy person who suddenly became aware of who they are is Eckhart Tolle, but that is a rare case and I don't hedge my bets on being able to duplicate that experience. Most of the knowledge on enlightenment states certain qualities of mind that need to be cultivated first, one of them is dispassion and an ability to discriminate whats real from whats not real, dispassionate people take life as it comes, know that "life is a fantasy, a tragicomedy to be acted to the hilt, no doubt, but of no lasting importance. A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing" Healthy ego for enlightenment purposes is not about making the world work for the ego, it's about neutralizing the ego's suffering by giving it non dual vision. There is the difference.

What do your values say? Consult your higher values. I'm guessing (as we are on a similar journey) that your values might match mine in this regard, so I'm going to make an educated guess and say your highest values are peace, liberation, happiness, contentment, health. So in light of these values what is the best thing you think you should do with regards to eating? For me I programme myself to eat smaller and more often during the day, I'm vegan, I chose this because I want to feel good and feeling good is conducive to liberation. It won't bring me enlightenment but it sure helps because it ripples across the whole of my life into every area. So my values determine what and how much I eat. I take my time and don't rush my meals so that I'm aware of when my body has had enough so that I don't pig out. Most of us pig out and then feel bloated out of pure habit because we don't educate ourselves about food and nutrition. Because I've got all this in place habitually I don't worry about it, it's just automatic, like a computer programme running in the background, my attention is on myself and this is where the fulfilment comes from because I'm not worrying anymore. As long as you get your values and habits straight and don't deviate until they are habitualized (6 months?) and learn the art of letting go, you will be fine. It;s not about letting go of disciplined living, its just letting go of the erroneous assumption that "things" make you happy. Did I answer your question sufficiently? If not let me know.

@Raquel Hi Raquel, I sent you a message, but perhaps it might be more benefit for everyone to keep the discussion on the thread. You can't control anything except what is going on inside of yourself. It's true that other peoples energies can have dramatic effects on our subtle body, they can "get inside us" with negativity. So even that we do not have any say over. Most would suggest keeping a healthy distance from people who bring you down in these ways. Leo talks about cutting out people from your life, and I agree with that on the most part, but that's a bit drastic for our parents, but I mention it as a reminder that it's healthy to manage the amount of contact We have with others who have negative effects on us. We become our environment, if we hang out with depressed people we become depressed ourselves, if we hang out with positive people it lifts us up, there is no denying that! So if it's too difficult to bear then be kind to yourself and structure your visits so that you are spending minimal time with your parents. I would also not obey the urge to neglect your friends or do the things you would normally do. You mention that you feel like moping around a lot? Well that depressive energy is rubbing off on you, this is where you need to move locus of control away from trying to repair the situation with your parents and just get out of the environment and go do things to counterbalance the effect that the vibe is having on your mind and body. It's a little like saying that you won't be taken over completely (yes it's hard not to soak up the vibe, but when this energy starts to dictate your behaviour then it's seeped into the physical realm and is carving out a deeper groove in the causal body as a habit). Don't let this happen, you can feel bad but don't let it take you over physically, otherwise the negativity will take root. So this is taking responsibility for yourself, and learning to relinquish control. You might need to reflect on what it is that makes you want to change your parents. The depression you pick up from them is one good reason to try to change them, and this is normal! But we've already discussed how to handle this. What else is it inside you that feels the need to try to repair the situation? If you can reflect on that you will find the cause of what is attributing to the control pattern. This part of you you must face and kind of educate in a way and give this part of you the tools to learn how to surrender to what life brings, the good the bad and the ugly! Which is really conventient because this situation is conducive to spiritual growth as from the perspevtive of awareness all thoughts are neutral and equal. * PS another thing you may be doing and that you're not aware of completely is you could be personalising this stuff. Making their problems about them as people, instead of relieving them and yourself of personal responsibility, seeing the situation in perhaps a more realistic light. See us all as being under the spell of human feelings and universal problems. None of this is personal, and they are here like everyone to work out their issues, not to give us what we want. Seeing them and yourself in this way is the essence of compassion. One excersise I use to manage deeply worn in grooves of habitual and unhelpful thought is to identify the emotional disturbance, try to discover what the thought is saying (sometimes this can take weeks). When I have unveiled the thought I hold it up in the light of my highest values and ask myself if this is really a thought that is conducive to my highest values? Then I craft an authentic replacement thought, one I personally believe in and feel fits with my purpose, and then spend 10-30 seconds deliberately burning in that thought. It takes a while, especially with deep issues, but it does work eventually. In time the mind will habitualize the new belief and just run that programme automatically. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm teaching you to suck eggs lol, I'm sure you already know this stuff! Perhaps a gentle reminder is sometimes needed from the outside. Best of luck

Arjuna was supposed to be upholding Dharma, not just his personal svadharma, but facilitating karma on behalf of Bhagavan. It states clearly in the B.G. that war is needed in certain situations to keep the dharmic balance. Common sense and logic are in harmony with this principle. I don't think a debate is necessary as Bhagavan has it all worked out nicely. Those who break dharma pay for it in one way or another. It's a simple law, nobody can escape it and it's been working forever. Just my two cents

@actualized1 I'm personally very skeptical about these diagnoses. I don't think we yet have a very good understanding of the mind at all. I would think very carefully before committing to any kinds of therapy, research the stats and get some inside info on the effects of the medication.

@Raquel Mutual compassion, understanding, acceptance (it's a learning experience) and deliberate thought management. What is happening "out there" can only really be managed if you don't unconsciously identify with the problems and thinking patterns. Also take responsibility, you might be unwittingly blaming others for your own internal states (your whole experience is just your own thoughts being presented to you from your "causal body" which is kind of like a set of neural pathways in your mind. These things can lay dormant in "seed" form and only manifest under certain triggers). It's actually a good opportunity to face and process the pain, but you can only do that once you own it, if you think in any way it's them then you are projecting and unable to get to the issue. You can't solve something that you don't know is yours! When you know it's all you, then you have the power to transform your mind. I know it won't seem like it but the situation is a gift, and an opportunity to get this handled internally. Hope this helps, and hope I've not been too techincal lol Good luck! P.S Become aware of the behavioural side too, the desire to curl up into a ball and disappear is one I often want to do when confronted with pain. Just make sure you don't reinforce the patterns by doing what your thinking suggests, keep an open mind and keep active to keep your positive energy up. Don't drink, eat well, things like that. Stay vigilant! Wishing you the best!

Enlightened people are action itself. Action is a form, if you are the essence of all forms then you are everything. That includes action itself.

@AmandaA Have compassion for the other person and yourself. Understanding and acceptance goes a long way. When you understand, accept and have compassionon for yourself and others who irritate or offend it frees you. At the moment you are facing the pain of all those injustices. Before you just acted on them by being reactive. But now you're doing mindfulness all the pain you ignored is being presented to you for processing. Process the pain. Have compassion for yourself and give yourself the gift of love and acceptance. Everything will be ok in the end, it's not forever, it's temporary. Imagine you had neglected the basement for years, just chucked things in there willy-nilly without consideration or maintenance. Then one day you decide to clean it up. It's going to feel overwhelming at first because of all the disorganised stuff in there. But a little bit of love and patience and effort and the basement begins to look clean again. Even a haven?? Perhaps soon when the garbage is clear you might consider decorating and maintaining it? Put in a sofa and a sound system to make it a super comfortable place to hang out? It's the same with your mind. Treat it well and it will come good. !

@Sleepwalker Excellent! Just keep us posted, because it doesn't happen overnight. Some patterns are hard to get rid of, so don't give up when facing a challenge or things get down, it's just a blip. Hey, what am I talking about? You can do it!! Just want to make sure you can come back for more advice and detail of you need it Cheers!

Good points actually. I'd like to elaborate on that and suggest a revision of values for the OP if this is the case. Well spotted! ?

Easy tiger! That's not ego. That's just life happening, for specific types and ages. Perfectly normal and ok. The ego is the part of the mind that lays claim to all of this and makes value judgements based on it. Let the boy do what he needs to do and run the natural course of his twenties, priorities will change in time.

A little more psychology if you are still not sure. The mind (everything in the creation actually) works on habit patterns. It's all conditioned, nothing is actually wilfully created here. You can verify this for yourself after some thought and observation. The way the human mind works is that in the past we perform specific actions and those actions condition our minds and bodies. They become patterns. We cant forcefully manage those patterns in the present moment with will power, like I say, all we can do is observe the thinking that appears in the mind and decide what we want to do with those thoughts based on our highest values. So the thoughts appearing are conditioned thoughts from the past. If we eat a lot of ice cream and potato chips in the past we create the habit for that and those desires just appear to us and compel us to continue with that. There is no actual choice there! The notion that we have free will over this process is an assumption. The only free will we have to to get our values clear and then decide what to do with the thinking in relation to our highest values. For example, you wont be able to convince yourself that this idea will work. But what you can do is ignore your skepticism and try the idea out. When the results happen, the results re-condition your mind to keep doing the same. So, if you have a pattern of anxiety, look at it in the light that you have no control over it, see what benefit you derive from the anxiety, and then decide to replace the behaviour with a new behaviour (letting go). When the mind sees that letting go feels better it will just create a habit of letting go because one of your values should be happiness (correct?). The mind is either your friend or your enemy, it just does what its programmed to do based on your values and habits. So get your values straight and then build a habit of letting go so that the mind can see for itself the benefits of letting things be as they are and not worrying too much. Hoping this helps ! And I wouldnt worry about consciously trying to escape toxic people and situations that dont serve you. Your mind will do ALL that for you once you understand it and give it what it needs to carry out your values. Everything happens by itself, you just need to understand how the mind works and let it do its job, and more or less get out of the way lol

@Sleepwalker I get it, I really do! I have been in the same position, I thought I was the one who had a say in my life (still do sometimes). While youre thinking about this do some more analysis, ask a few questions: 1) Did you really create anything in life? I mean really? Do you create ans sustain your own body? Do you create your thoughts and feelings or do your thoughts and feelings just appear in you without your permission, stay a while, play with you and make you either happy or sad or whatever? When you do your best at something and you dont get the result you expected, did you create that situation, or did it just appear to you without your say so? You will find that if you think about it is you have all these desires and intentions but most of the time you don't actually get what you want. Sometimes you do, but its rare. Your friends will verify the same experience, most of the time life is outside of our control, yes we can and do try to control it, but that is where anxiety comes from. How is it that some people can just be happy and content and more or less anxiety free and others cant and are controlled by their worries? Because some take life as it comes and some still have not examined their experience closely enough yet Examine your experience and ask yourself if you ever got what you really wanted in life? When you did get what you want, did it cure anything for you? Did it take away the anxiety permanently or did the anxiety come creeping back soon after you got it? So thats the first thing. This is irrefutable because you wont be able to argue with the logic once you look carefully at how life is set up. The reason you are anxious about relinquishing control is because you have not experienced the freedom and satisfaction from relinquishing control. You need to have a little bit of faith in the concept presented here, not blind belief, but faith pending the results of your investigation. As you begin to let go of more and more and just take a stance of gratitude for what you already have, your confidence in the process will gain momentum. It will teach your mind to be able to let go and trust life. When you are happy and content you dont eat a ton of food and let yourself go. It is the opposite, you feel positive and have the energy to put your focus on living a healthy lifestyle. If you dont believe me, go make friends with some healthy people you respect a lot and observe their behaviour. You will find they dont stress over things, yet they seem to function well and seem to get what they want (to a degree). So my advice is just try the process, and the results will prove to you that the idea works. I wouldn't try to convince yourself before trying it, that's just more control, isnt it? ** I forgot to mention, you do have a choice, the healthy choice is that you dont have to believe every thought that appears in your experience. Just observe what is happening there and dont act on it, soon you will recondition your mind to get in line with what your highest values are. But that is where your locus of control lies, its doesnt lie externally, it's all inside.