Shane Hanlon

@Leo Gura Watch videos from project drawdown like this one: Project drawdown is working to create solutions to climate change within a Game A framework. They don't explicitly say that but that is where they are coming from. They work with accurate information and think well about climate issues. I think they are up your alley.

This is not true. Colonization massacered every tribe that wasn't oriented towards power and war. So those that were highly developed and didn't integrate powerful weapons (almost all of them) into their way of life, were wiped from the planet. Be careful to take this too literally. Tribes can also be at any stage of development. It goes much deeper than this.

I’m tired with all the back-and-forth, so here’s my final post to lay it out as clearly as I can. These are the main points that are irrefutable. Veganism can be a healthy diet for most people A well-planned vegan diet provides everything you need. It might not work perfectly for everyone, but for the vast majority, it’s a healthy choice. Veganism is about more than just your health It’s not just about feeling good or optimizing your own body. Veganism considers the well-being of all life, including animals, ecosystems, and the planet. Animals don’t have to suffer for us to eat Factory farming causes extreme suffering to hundreds of billions of animals every year. The reality is, we don’t need to eat animals to survive or thrive. By going vegan, you’re choosing not to contribute to that harm. Animal agriculture is destroying the planet It’s one of the leading causes of deforestation, water pollution, and greenhouse gas emissions. A plant-based diet has a much smaller impact on the environment and is one of the best ways to prevent ecological crises. Veganism acknowledges that everything is connected The health of humans, animals, and the planet are all deeply intertwined. By going vegan, you’re supporting a more compassionate and sustainable world for everyone. That’s it. That’s the big picture. Veganism isn’t only about a healthy individual, it’s about creating a healthier, kinder, and more sustainable world for all life. I know it’s not an easy change for everyone, and that’s fine. But at least let’s be clear about what veganism really is. And your tone is fine. It's your understanding that is missing important insights and context. Integrate ecology and other beings experience into your understanding of nutrition and you will likely end up at veganism or something close to it. We can be vegan and create effective systemic change in other ways at the same time. It is not either or. It is Both And.

yep.

Except for Costa Rica and Bhutan. But they also do not have easily exploitable and highly valuable natural resources.

@integral I hear you. We have to use all of our ways of knowing and integrate them in their proper context in order to deeply know something. However, I feel like you are grappling with complexity but not fully resolving it in a systematic or holistic way. To reduce all science to anecdotes doesn't really integrate a real understanding of science or the scientific method. Not all science is the same and science can be critiqued, but I feel your approach seems rather confused. At what point do you end up going off the rails on veganism?

This is hilariously terrifyingly accurate lol

Hey sda! Just a heads up that this story feels a little hard to follow and I am not totally sure what is going on. So it is hard to give you any advice

Ya. I have never heard of the term "presentism" before, but going off of your explanation of it, it is totally useless. But so is using culture as a yardstick for morality. That is like using groupthink to determine morality. It might have been socially acceptable but not moral. Same with purchasing factory farmed meat today. Check out a book like: The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow After reading that, I feel that I would have been happier living in an indigenous tribe on ecologically healthy land than how I live today.

It is really important to a functioning democracy. And is fun when you start to connect different fields together and begin to understand how physics, chemistry, biology, ecology, health, math, and everything is just different facets of the same thing! Also an education of how the world works can lead to work opportunities that wouldn't be open to you otherwise.

I value pattern recognition. My pattern is that veganism has worked for me and the people I know. I do value scientific consensus too. When my patterns (veganism is healthy) line up with the science (veganism is healthy), it is easy to make sense of. Your patterns are different. Ok. Then how can you integrate a pattern of unhealthy vegans with strong scientific evidence that it is healthy. There is a discrepancy there that demands more than just dismissing science. Somehow you have to resolve that tension with a higher order understanding. Maybe veganism can be unhealthy for some people some of the time in some contexts, but is generally healthy overall for most people when doen properly. Maybe you can find a large sample size of unhealthy vegans online when you look for it. Maybe your pattern recognition is biased. Or maybe you have a different higher order explanation. But somehow you have to integrate the scientific consensus into your understanding for it to not be nonsense jibberish.

@integral I think you are using the model of integral theory as a map you don't fully understand and projecting how you make sense of it onto the world. Rather than deeply understanding it for yourself. At higher levels, science is still important. It also makes us feel like you don't actually understand how higher levels of development operate because you are assuming our epistemology based off of small conversations in which we are making important nuanced points involving holism and complexity. Yet you think we are limited to the scientific and rational worldview only because we believe the science to be an important point of contact when determining how to think about something. You make veganism sound like getting a PHD with a blindfold on. It isn't that hard. Just not as simple as turning animal products off.

Another example of a valid idea. But the contexts you put it in don't work. Like because science has limits and can be critiqued, that doesn't mean that when there is overwhelming scientific evidence for a particular conclusion we can throw all of that out because of a lot of people I saw on the internet were unhealthy vegans. Climate change isn't real because this was a cold winter in Vermont. This is how it sounds to us.

I feel like Leo deeply communicating psychological pitfalls of humanity has this community trapping themselves at lower paradigms and projecting these traps they understand onto others without deeply reconsidering their own beliefs and worldviews based on these same traps.

One of the major hurdles you have here in your "epistemology tables" is that you are assuming another persons entire epistemology. I think you have might have assumed most of it wrong or at least not right. You'd have to let them fill out their side or something. Another example of a valid idea. But the contexts you put it in don't work. Like because science has limits and can be critiqued, that doesn't mean that when there is overwhelming scientific evidence for a particular conclusion we can throw all of that out because of a lot of people I saw on the internet were unhealthy vegans. Maybe it can work. Because the science says it does and it has worked for both of us. Me for 5 years and her for 8.5. For us and many we know, veganism is healthy. Backed by overwhelming scientific evidence. So when we hear you talk about all of the malnourished vegans, we look around and are like "where?". You can imagine those anti-scientific claims seem alarmist, motivated by some desire not to give up your current wroldview or way of life, and just plain wrong. I think we all identify the most with the "sage" column. But I'm curious as to how you think what we are saying is limited. We are not blindly following science. We are not blindly following an ideology. We believe we are looking at all possible ways of relating to the world and our body and choosing the most systemically holistically healthy. To us it feels like you are biased and blinded to different paradigms.