Prabhaker

The enlightenment you are describing never happens, so it can't be measured. Nobody has ever determined it. The Enlightenment is the period in the history of western thought and culture, stretching roughly from the mid-decades of the seventeenth century through the eighteenth century, characterized by dramatic revolutions in science, philosophy, society and politics. Spiritual enlightenment , though it is non-existent, has a value. If you learn to talk about it cleverly, you can do good business by becoming a spiritual teacher.

All knowledge of enlightenment, mysticism is without logic that's why it is not recognized by science , mainstream society. Because it's in the name. Enlighten - lighten, to overcome darkness, delusion; to gain insight, to enable consciousness to be the crystal clear light it is intended to be The Enlightenment is the period in the history of western thought and culture, stretching roughly from the mid-decades of the seventeenth century through the eighteenth century, characterized by dramatic revolutions in science, philosophy, society and politics. What enlightenment you are talking about ? There is no evidence of type of enlightenment you are describing, ever happened in any human being, it is a myth propagated by some delusioned so called spiritualists, it is a big business these days.

Journey of a poor man is extremely difficult and long, but if have infinite patience, if you don't escape your sufferings, if you don't deceive yourself, you will move from misery towards enlightenment. Many poor people die miserably but trust me , on this path you can't die miserably even if you are crucified.

You ask: Are you not a rich man's guru? I am—because only a rich man can come to me. But when I say 'a rich man' I mean one who is very poor inside. When I say 'a rich man' I mean one who is rich in intelligence; I mean one who has got everything that the world can give to him, and has found that it is futile. Yes, only a rich person can become religious. I am not saying that a poor person cannot become religious, but it is very rare, exceptional. A poor person goes on hoping. A poor person has not known what riches are. He is not yet frustrated with it. How can he go beyond riches if he is not frustrated with them? A poor man also sometimes comes to me, but then he comes for something which I cannot supply. He asks for success. His son is not getting employed; he asks, "Bless him, Bhagwan." His wife is ill, or he is losing money in his business. These are symptoms of a poor man, one who is asking about things of this world. When a rich person comes to me, he has money, he has employment, he has a house, he has health—he has everything that one can have. And suddenly he has come to a realisation that nothing is fulfilling. Then the search for God starts. Yes, sometimes a poor man can also be religious, but for that very great intelligence is needed. A rich man, if he is not religious, is stupid. A poor man, if he is religious, is tremendously intelligent. if a poor man is not religious, he has to be forgiven. If a rich man is not religious, his sin is unpardonable. I am a rich man's guru. Absolutely it is so…. If it were not for your money, you would not have been here. You are here because you are frustrated with your money. You are here because you are frustrated with your success. You are here because you are frustrated with your life. A beggar cannot come because he is not yet frustrated. Religion is luxury—the last, ultimate luxury I call it, because it is the highest When a man is dying of hunger, what use is a Van Gogh painting? or a Buddha's sermon? or beautiful Upanishads, or music?—meaningless. He needs bread. When a man is happy with his body, has enough to eat, has a good house to live in, he starts becoming interested in music, poetry, literature, painting, art. Now a new hunger arises. The bodily needs are fulfilled, now psychological needs arise. There is a hierarchy in needs: the first is the body; it is the base, it is the ground-floor of your being. Without the ground-floor, the first storey cannot exist. When your bodily needs are fulfilled, psychological needs arise. When your psychological needs are also fulfilled, then your spiritual needs arise. When a person has listened to all the music that is available in the world, and has seen all the beauty, and has found that it is all dream; has listened to all the great poets, and has found that it is just a way to forget yourself, just a way to intoxicate yourself, but it does not lead you anywhere; has seen all the paintings and the great art—amusing, entertaining, but then what…? Then hands remain empty, more empty than they ever were before. Then music and poetry are not enough. Then the desire to meditate, the desire to pray, a hunger for God, a hunger for truth arises. A great passion takes possession of you and you are in search of truth, because you now know: unless you know what the secret most truth of this existence is, nothing can satisfy. All else you have tried and it has failed. Religion is the ultimate luxury. Either you have to be very rich to come to this luxury, or you have to be tremendously intelligent. But in both the cases you are rich—rich with money or rich with intelligence. I have never seen a person who is really poor—poor in intelligence, poor in riches—ever become religious. Kabir becomes religious. He was not a millionaire, but he was tremendously intelligent. Buddha became religious because he was tremendously rich. Krishna and Ram and Mahavir became religious because they were tremendously rich. Dadu, Raidas, Farid, they became religious because they were tremendously intelligent. But a certain sort of richness is needed. Yes, you are right: I am the rich man's guru. Excerpts from ~The Discipline of Transcendence, Vol. 3 by Osho

I consider religion to be the last luxury. Only when a society becomes affluent does religion become meaningful. And now, for the first time, a greater part of the world is not poor. America in particular is the first society in human history to reach such affluence. To be religious, or to be interested in the ultimate questions of life, one needs to have really fulfilled all the lower wants and needs. So to me, a poor society cannot be religious. India was religious only when it was at a peak of affluence. For example, in Buddha's time India was just like America is today. In those days India was the richest land. The religion that we have in India today is just a leftover from those days. There is a basic difference between a poor man's religion and a rich man's religion. If a poor man becomes interested in religion it will be just as a substitute. Even if he prays to God he will be praying for economic goods; the basic problem of man will not yet have arisen for him. So Marx is right in a way when he says that religion is the opium of the people. He is exactly right about poor people: they cannot get the basic needs of life fulfilled, so they substitute prayer and meditation and Yoga and religion. But for a rich man there is a basic change of dimension. Now he is not asking for economic goods, he is asking for the meaning of life. Excerpts from ~ The great challange by Osho

When sleep has gone, you can remember your dream. You cannot remember in your dream the facts of the day, when you were awake. While Zhuang Zhou were a butterfly in his dream, did was there any problem? was there any doubt? This is the only distinction between the dream and the real: reality allows you to doubt, and the dream does not allow you to doubt.

Witnessing makes the difference, because if dreaming is there you will be identified with it. in dream you are absent, you forget yourself, you become identified with the dream, so whatsoever is happening in the dream looks real to you, suppose in dream a horse becomes a man , you never doubt that it is absurd, because you are absent, you are not aware of yourself, then there is no one to doubt.

This forum is meant for seekers, those who are not seekers ask questions in other forums of this website (actualized.org).

I was referring towards my sentence below ,which you quoted in your post This was mine , sometimes I type my own sentences, else mostly I copy and paste words of Osho, I don't like typing too much.

@Shanmugam Do you think this is from Osho ? Even If Osho said , " if you meet the Buddha on the Way, kill him".. , I need a Buddha right now.

I am not Osho, I love parroting !

We can't understand the ways of enlightened masters. Judas betrayed Jesus, what does it show ? Jesus is a fool ? It is only through the crucifixion that Jesus’ message has lived in the world.

@harisankartj While dreaming, the dream is true, real, as real as any reality - it even appears more real. When you get up in the morning, you can remember your dream - but when you go into sleep you cannot remember what has happened, what was happening when you were awake. You cannot remember that you are a doctor in the day while you are awake, or an engineer, or a minister. You cannot remember in your dream the facts of the day, when you were awake. The whole reality, the so-called reality of the day is completely washed away by the dream - it seems more powerful. But in the morning when you get up, when sleep has gone, you can remember your dream. It means the reality of your day is not strong enough to completely wash away the reality of the dream. In dream you forget your day completely, but in your day, in your waking state of mind, you can remember your dreams. In dream you can never doubt that whatsoever you are seeing is unreal or real. You have been dreaming for your whole life, and every day in the morning you have come to know that the dream was unreal. Yet, when you go to sleep tonight and dream, you will not remember your whole life's experience, that dreams are unreal. Again you will fall into the illusion, and you will feel the dreams as real. In the morning again you will repeat that "it was just a dream, nothing real." What is happening? So much experience of dreaming, still the dream remains real. Why? - because really, anything becomes real if you are absent. Your absence gives reality to false things. In the dream you cannot remember yourself - so whatsoever passes in front of your eyes becomes real because you are not. You are so unreal that anything can be felt as real. If you can remember yourself in the dream, the dream will drop; it will cease immediately.

I think you are missing something, what difference will it make if quote is fabricated or true ? We have even used mythical creatures to give the message. Osho's spoke many contradictory things, many lies, many illogical things. Do you want to learn correct history or science from Osho ? There are more than 8000 thousand hours of discourses of Osho, do you think he was interested in stuffing you with great knowledge? People are memorizing Gita, Quran , Bible claiming that these are the words of God, people are interpenetrating Quran , analyzing it, claiming that everything written in the book is correct. Let us assume everything spoken by a master is historically or scientifically correct, will it transform you ? Osho said that “I don't speak to teach something; I speak to create something. These are not lectures; these are simply a device for you to become silent, because if you are told to become silent without making any effort you will find great difficulty.” " My words keep you awake, and just between the words I give you gaps. And those are the real, essential things. Waiting for another word, you have to listen to silence. I use Osho's audio and video to enter into meditation, not that I learn something from them. His discourses are meant to confuse you and give you the taste of meditation, if you know how to listen, you can use them a tool.

Become a catholic priest !

Osho was not the owner of cars. He had no bank account, no property, no pockets in his dress. He was one of the poorest person but he lived a luxurious life.

This is a while lotus , some people claim that it is Brahma Kamal, the flower which Brahma is holding in one of his four hands. It is believed that anybody who sees its blooming will have all his or her wishes fulfilled. Brahma is seen sitting on a pink lotus which is India's national flower. Hence people claim that the pink flower is the Brahma Kamal. Both are claimed as Brahma Kamal.

Brahma Kamal, named after Brahma, the God of Creation. There is a story that the lotus arose from the navel of God Vishnu, and at the center of the flower sat Brahma. It is long held belief that anybody who sees this rare flower blooming will have all his or her wishes fulfilled. The lotus is grows out of dirty mud and floats in water. It is a water flower, but the miracle is that the water never touches its petals. A sannyasin is a man who lives in the world, but remains untouched by it. Who remains with all kinds of unconscious people, one has to remain with these people, there are no other kind, but who remains untouched, unaffected. You may have seen Buddha statues of Buddha sitting on a lotus, of Vishnu standing on a lotus. The lotus lives in the lake and yet the water cannot touch it. It lives in the water and yet remains untouched by the water. The lotus represents the witnessing quality of your being: you live in the world, but you remain a witness. You remain in the world and yet you are not part of it. You participate and yet you are not part of it. You are in the world, but the world is not in you.

While dreaming you can never doubt that the dream is a dream. In dreams you never think there is a different reality.

Excerpts from Osho talks: “There was no need for ninety-six Rolls Royces. I could not use ninety-six Rolls Royces simultaneously – the same model, the same car. But I wanted to make it clear to you that you would be ready to drop all your desires for truth, for love, for spiritual growth to have a Rolls Royce. I was knowingly creating a situation in which you would feel jealous.” “The function of a master is very strange. He has to help you come to an understanding of your inner structure of consciousness: it is full of jealousy.” “…Those cars fulfilled their purpose. They created jealousy in the whole of America, in all the super-rich people. If they were intelligent enough, then rather than being my enemies they would have come to me to find a way to get rid of their jealousy, because it is their problem. Jealousy is a fire that burns you, and burns you badly.” (Beyond Psychology ~by Osho) For many people these cars were a barrier between them and Osho. They could not see past the cars. It is said that Sufi masters create disguises so that they may go about their business unrecognized and do not have to waste time with people who are not seekers.

Excerpts from Osho talks: Just the other day Anando was showing me one book published against me in Australia by a couple who have been sannyasins for three years and have been in the commune. But just looking at their ideas, it seems they have never seen me. They are saying that they were working, working hard, and with their work I was purchasing Rolls Royces. You can see the absurdity: their work was not bringing any money. Their work was making their own houses to live in, the roads - which were needing money, not producing money. But in their mind - and for all those three years also - they must have been resentful. Those Rolls Royces were not produced by the commune. They were presents from outside, from all over the world. And I was not their owner - I had given them to the commune. They were commune property, and I have not brought any of them with me; I have left them with the commune. Everything that I had has been left with the commune. I never owned anything. But there must have been the idea that they are earning money, and I am wasting money. That is their resentment. What money were you earning? In fact you needed money to make houses, to make roads, to make a dam - a dam needed two and a half million dollars to make. You were contributing your labor, but we were not creating money out of it so that I could purchase Rolls Royces, so that I could purchase anything. I have not purchased anything from the money produced by the commune because the commune never produced any money. The commune was absorbing money. In fact all my royalties, all my books, all their profits were going to the commune. The situation is just the opposite - that I had given everything to the commune. Now, four hundred books in different languages were bringing millions of dollars in royalties, and those royalties were going to the commune. If I had wanted to purchase Rolls Royces, I could have purchased my own Rolls Royces, as many as I wanted, just out of my royalties. (Osho - Beyond Psychology #24) OSHO: I Am the Rich Man's Guru

@username Excerpts from Osho talks: People are very much interested in your Rolls Royces. What do You want to prove with this, so many cars and so much luxury around You? Why are people concerned? Then certainly they need it; then more Rolls Royces will be here. Until they stop asking me, more and more Rolls Royces are going to be here. Now it has to be seen that it is a challenge: the day nobody asks me about Rolls Royces, they will not be coming. People's interest in Rolls Royces shows their mind. They are not interested what is happening here. They don't ask about meditation, they don't ask about sannyas, they don't ask about people's life, love, the laughter that happens in this desert. They only ask about Rolls Royces. That means I have touched some painful nerve. And I will go on pressing it till they stop asking. I am not a worshipper of poverty. That's what those Rolls Royces prove. I respect wealth. Nobody before me had the guts to say it. The pope cannot say that he respects wealth, although he is the wealthiest man on the earth. I am not a hypocrite. I am the poorest man on the earth. I don't have a single cent with me. But I want to show these people what attracts their mind. If there were no Rolls Royces here, perhaps there would be nothing for the whole world ask about me, about you, about meditation, about initiation into sannyas, about love, about anything. It is for those idiots that I am keeping all those Rolls Royces, because they cannot move their eyes away from those Rolls Royces. And meanwhile I will go on pouring other things in their minds. Without those Rolls Royces they would not have asked a single question. Those Rolls Royces are doing their work. Every idiot around the world is interested in them. And I want them to be somehow interested—in anything in Rajneeshpuram. Then we will manage about other things. So tell those people—when anybody asks, tell them that "These Rolls Royces are for you idiots. Otherwise you are not interested in anything." Once they stop asking about Rolls Royces, then I will have to think of something else, whether to have rockets which are going to the moon…. I will have to think of something else. I received a letter from a bishop of Wasco County, who had been for almost five years condemning my Rolls Royces. In every Sunday sermon he was not preaching Jesus Christ, he was preaching me and my Rolls Royces. The day I was leaving he wrote a letter to me, "Now you are leaving, it will be great kindness on your part if you can donate one Rolls Royce to this church." Now, this shows the man…. I informed him, "Would you like all ninety-three, or only one?" And a letter came, "If you can give all ninety-three, that is just the right thing. You are really great. I'm very sorry that I condemned you for five years. You are a man to be worshiped." It is a very strange world if you understand people: whatever they are saying shows more about them than it shows about the person they are talking about.

No, Ramana Maharshi was enlightened , but masters criticize each other, Sri Aurobindo was criticizing him, criticism is a devise . We can't judge who is enlightened or not, only other enlightened person can know. Every enlightened person is not a teacher. Only few are teachers still hundreds of persons are recognized as enlightened by mystics.

In the book "Bhagwan, the god that failed", Hugh Milne has mentioned something which J Krishnmurthi has said about OSHO. "I have received thousands of letters from all over the world asking why I do not speak out in public against this man (Osho) . But I will not, as it is not my way. The man (Osho) is a criminal. You have to understand this very clearly. What he is doing to people in the name of spirituality is criminal. One must never give to another human being – and he is simply a human being – your ultimate manifestation of consciousness, which is your ability to make decisions for yourself. You have made a great mistake in giving him that power for twelve years, but understand this: no man has power except the power his followers give him. That is why he needs people around him all the time, and the more the better.”

Ramana Maharshi criticized Sri Aurobindo. Sri Aurobindo told that Ramana Maharshi was not fully enlightened as he was dominated by vitalic plane of consciousness, i.e. feelings and desires, so Ramana was evil, self-obsessed, emotional inside.