UnbornTao

Seems like we'd need to look into the function of language and distinction, quite advanced stuff. I could contribute a few questions to get the ball rolling, the main one being- what is language? It still points to a notion, albeit an abstract one, that occurs in your perceptive experience. Contrast that word with "watermelon" or "Santa Claus" and different associations arise. Why is that? I might say more but need some time to think about it.

Could be. We can see that the matter is a bitch. I guess we need some enlightenment experiences.

Maybe you could create a newsletter on Substack, Medium, or your own website.

We take ourselves for granted and often attach negative associations to these kinds of belief systems. In our minds the idea of being existentially alone is unbearable and depressing. Yet we likely misunderstand such matters on a deep level. Beyond speculative efforts, we are likely ignorant of what the self (and the other) is. Grasping the nature of these should be the aim here. Once that is clear for you, there's no longer any need to play with beliefs, because you've directly realized whatever is true regarding the matter. Here’s a new possibility: Even though, for you and me, it's currently just a cute little saying, it might help open our minds to some real contemplation.

Hello there, we meet again.

@Xonas Pitfall Nice, thanks for such a detailed response. I liked your examples on the list above, they're quite illuminating and can serve as an intellectual exercise to get a better handle on this. Beyond that, what is your experience of value? I'm not even sure what we're looking into anymore. A few things have come up: value, meaning, worth. Anyway... Value shows up as a relationship, doesn’t it? We might recognize that objects themselves don’t possess inherent worth--so, as you say, it’s assigned by the self doing the relating. Could it be a charged, self-referential interpretation based on one’s agenda--hence an activity? By the way, the way I see it, an explanation isn’t really the point here, but rather the act of questioning itself and the possibility of insight. It seems we often resist exploring these things because we fear it will erode or undermine our sense of value, but it doesn’t have to. We could keep enjoying the same things, only now we’d be recognizing what worth and value are in and of themselves.

The exercise was meant to show that memory, a form of concept, is different in kind from the lived experience that the memory is supposed to refer to. Notice, for example, that memory itself tends to be incredibly biased and subjective. In fact, it often is a complete misrepresentation of whatever was experienced, in part because we weren't paying much attention to what really happened but were more concerned with subjective matters and personal machinations. How does that differ from experience? Representing an experience is what the word is for. Perhaps it doesn't have to be about something objective, but terms like "confusion", "abstract", "ability," or "paradox" still point to some kind of experience, something that we notice to be different from what it is not. And it could be just a thought. If there's a word for it, it is representing something we're aware of. We could leave the investigation of language for another time, though. New thread needed, come on people.

If you're conscious of that (not a small if), then it sounds like a solid realization.

Hey, most of us (humanity, that is) probably don’t really know what this thing called direct consciousness is, even if the idea points us in a certain direction. So maybe we should start there.

It seems like something has to be deemed important first before it can be cared for.

Christian versus atheist:

I don't think evading them is necessary; it's about learning to recognize a notion for what it is. If a concept is a mental representation of something--usually an experience--then it is non-objective. We can experience a concept, but that is not the same as the concept itself. Refer to the definitions above: experience means personally going through an event. A concept, on the other hand, is inferred and, in a sense, invented, whereas experience occurs as a phenomenon or fact, seemingly independent of our notions. Contrast a memory of something with your actual experience of it. Stand up now, then sit down. Compare your memory of standing up with the experience itself as it unfolds.

Thanks for the reply. Even though we obviously deem certain things more important than others, I'm not sure we necessarily have to compare or contrast them for them to have value. We could assess an object as important at one point, be done with it, and then stop applying value to it. What would an opposite to that thing be in such a case? It sounds like you are actually considering importance to be something objective, despite some of your claims above. For example, what is the value of an object dependent on? That may be the case, although it fails to get at the core of what value or importance actually is. Perhaps we could proceed by saying that value is a specific kind of relationship--what that relationship consists of remains to be seen. Coming up with an exercise or two would help us ground the investigation.

A phenomenon is what happened as it was experienced. Yes, it is still interpreted and is likely automatically filtered through our network of conclusions, preferences, and so on. I'm not sure what you mean by "particular or general phenomenon." The point is to see the difference between what we think happened--our mental activity around the event--and what we actually experienced as the event. As for the question: "And when we refer to the particular phenomenon could something else that were not identical to it have replaced it without us knowing?" I'd need some clarity on that. In the meantime, I'd add that we often struggle to separate the event itself from what we mentally add to it. We're beginning to see now just how pervasive conceptualization really is.

Source?

Someone walked into a bar.... wait -- Was there ever someone to begin with? - Taoist saying.

Keep it up! Withdrawal symptoms can be intense (I’m not a smoker), but as you said, they’re manageable. Just push through this phase of struggle and focus on the long-term benefits. Good luck.

Forgot adding concept: An abstract and general idea; an abstraction. Understanding retained in the mind, from experience, reasoning and imagination; a generalization or abstraction (mental impression), of a particular set of instances or occurrences (specific, though different, recorded manifestations of the concept). an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct. a directly conceived or intuited object of thought. -- And one more; phenomenon: From Late Latin phaenomenon (“appearance”), from Ancient Greek φαινόμενον (phainómenon, “thing appearing to view”), neuter present middle participle of φαίνω (phaínō, “I show”). A thing or being, event or process, perceptible through senses; or a fact or occurrence thereof. A knowable thing or event (eg by inference, especially in science) Appearance; a perceptible aspect of something that is mutable.

I was joking.

Inside-of-body experience.

@Paradoxed I'm not one of those that subscribe to the practice of breathing. Do something better with your time.