UnbornTao

Al-Ghazali, Rumi, Hafiz, Kabir.

Wilber strikes me as lost in the clouds (too stuck in intellect). I don't sense much real clarity by him on enlightenment.

Not entirely related:

Kant would precisely be an exception, from my viewpoint. He wasn't messing around. He might even have had enlightenment experiences. That level of genius requires some leap in consciousness. That may apply to Ken Wilber, etc.

@bambi "He who has ears to hear..."

Beware of being intellectual and abstract in order to avoid the uncomfortable work of confronting your own experience of things. Your mind wants to keep the work in the domain of abstraction where it is safe and no real confrontation takes place. What we think of and intellectualize about might not be aligned with our actual experience of such matters.

The point of an insight isn't the expression and form it takes but rather the recognition of the reality of something. Eloquent and "profound" speech that isn't sourced by your own experiential understanding is an adopted artifice, a belief, not a communication. This adds to our sense of inauthenticity.

Take a look; you guys should find plenty of personal examples. Start with: "I was wrong not to "find" anything I was wrong about." For example, broadly speaking, consider ways in which you: justify your excuses, think that X or Y are going to finally make you happy, play the victim, avoid pain, complain about things without doing anything about them, say one thing and do another, blame your life on this or that, use white lies for self-benefit, pretend to be something you're not. Bring to mind your own biases, hypocrisy, selfishness and self-deceptions. These are some of my personal examples: Taking oneself to be unique and special as if it were a fact of the universe (honestly, who doesn't?) Acting arrogant and righteous in subtle ways Making interactions about oneself, letting irrelevant stuff, such as the occasional impulse to be right, get in the way of the exchange Being cynical at times Engaging in superficial honesty. The more I move in that direction, the more I feel like that Being dismissive towards others Misusing humor at inappropriate times Being eager to judge before making an attempt to really listen Complaining about not being heard while simultaneously not listening to others Invalidating everyone, including oneself, under the guise of deconstruction (done with selfish intent) Making sharp remarks when hurt to get revenge Being too contrarian or disagreeable Some of these are vague; I'm not going to share a detailed analysis here. Brainstorm and introspect for some time. They don't have to be monumental fuckups such as robbing a bank. Subtle, small, specific cases work, too, as long as you asses them as such.

@Danioover9000 thank you.

For the same reason that drinking coffee within a dream won't wake you up. We're talking about different domains.

What do you mean by emptied? Did you perhaps mean embodied?

@Leo Gura Seriously though, I'm very appreciative of your work.

Control your mind and use it to create what works, in short. Easier said than done, yet it's simple--not easy.

Stating that one is absolute morality isn't saying much, is it? If morality is relative and constructed, I don't see how your nature could be that. Why would you bring up 'absolute' when morality relates to life, experience, and action? Do you perhaps mean universal or broadly applicable? Also, it's easy for formulations like this to become 'rules' set in stone or to be taken as an ideal. For example, chances are that you've been hurt by someone and have attempted to hurt them back, even if subtly. The thing is, there are many forms of suffering that we actually "desire" or like and actively partake in, albeit unconsciously. This is because we get something out of them and think them necessary, which is why we experience--generate--them in the first place. Would we want to impose these onto others? Your model would be hard to follow in practice, I'd imagine. As a construction, though, it sounds appealing and intelligent. It's a positive direction, even if it isn't perfectly met.

That's the way you hold perception, so it's fine. I take it as a process, hence relative, mediated by biological inventions. And then there's the possibility of enlightenment which is neither a process nor relative. These distinctions help us create a space in our minds between a relative phenomena and absolute consciousness, being in the same place as the thing contemplated, so to speak. If it's true and deeply experienced, not to be confused with an intellectual conclusion or a believed formulation, then I think it'd be solid, but I don't know.

Set aside what comes up for you, as it will get in the way of an open inquiry. Take a serious look, have a breakthrough, then tell me what it is.

The guy was a buzzkill. I'd not adopt a pessimistic philosophy and project it onto one's worldview.

Depends on what we're talking about. Becoming conscious sounds more fitting than to perceive oneself. But direct consciousness itself isn't about perception. But then again, if it's held loosely or as "metaphorical", no problem. I might be a bit pedantic about it, though.

Mu!

You beat me to it.

@Something Funny Enjoyment seems to be a relationship or disposition towards events rather than a reaction or effect dictated by pleasurable circumstances. Take a look at your willingness to let this negative pattern go. If you're not willing, then enjoy it nevertheless, since you want it. You get to be a victim and to defend your position, or whatever it gets you. If you're generating it--experiencing it--it means you want it. Become conscious of what that's about and drop the assumption/s underlying the motivation to act in such a way. I hope this helps, good luck.

Your logic is foolish. To start with, don't take yourself so seriously. Enjoy life without needing things to be different from how they are now. You'd first need to allow things to be themselves, even one's resistance, and from that love and beauty come more easily to the forefront. So, it's fine—whatever you're going through is just a state. Let it come and pass. Then, you'll experience something else, and that is life for everyone. Enjoy the ride.

No point in keeping this thread up anymore. I suggest you first look into your own disposition to see what you can discover and transcend.

Your habitual impulses lead you down the same roads. Discipline is stopping that movement, creating a result that wouldn't naturally arise for you as a result of your habitual patterns.

I'd suggest there isn't a shift in perception because it's absolute. What shift would there be? Perception likely would go on as it is now. As a side effect, likely, but they do not share the same purpose, one is aimed at consciousness, the other at growing and healing. As the Buddha said, I'm paraphrasing, "I didn't gain anything by becoming enlightened". In a way, I also take that to mean "my experience didn't change." Afterwards, there might be a different relationship towards one's experience or a recontextualization, but I wouldn't know.