UnbornTao

@Breakingthewall The bottom line is, where is the clarity regarding the presumed direct consciousness? What I hear is fantastical rhetoric and too much this and that, intellect, experience and state. Hey, why not revisit someone like Ramana afresh?

Here it comes guys. Enlightenment 2.0

Magic Fantasy-ridden and is referring to perceptive experience. May have had a genuine glimpse or perhaps state change but it seems to me his mind is heavily filtering it through a bunch of stuff. But it is soothing nevertheless.

I don't know about that. Preservation instinct, yes. Hmm. Didn't we act when we were babies? What was there for us? We could act and there was not a conglomerate of past history and identity. @Keryo Koffa "What is one's nature?" Get it yourself and then tell us about it. My contemplation goes loosely like this: get an honest sense of who you take yourself to be and question what that experience is about.

Sometimes I put on classical or instrumental music as it helps me focus on what I'm doing.

Hey, I'll take that as a compliment.

Haha, okay then.

I wasn't talking about you in particular. I was pointing out a dynamic that tends to happen, which may go like this: We read about Gautama being peaceful and magnanimous and compassionate. We miss that those traits arose for Gautama as side effects of the increased consciousness and understanding; they were natural expressions for him. Then, without the understanding, we go about adopting those characteristics as affectations, which might not arise authentically in us or to the same degree. So, for example, even though at times we may feel hurt and angry, we suppress these emotions and decide to put on a mask of a peaceful, calm spiritual persona. Which is to say, action is action, who you are is who you are (identity). What's identified as oneself in this regard is the repeated behavior patterns you engage in, and those can be changed. We'd perhaps be talking about two different domains here. Enlightened people can do stupid and dysfunctional stuff, etc.

It is not personal so don't get me wrong. The way language is used gives clues as to where one is coming from. This applies to anyone. Let us call a belief by its name if we are interested at all in enlightenment, that's all.

What's needed is consciousness on your part. You don't have to hate anything. As a matter of fact, having an open relationship towards our experience is functional and freeing. Yes, wanting to know it.

Anything you think regarding enlightenment that isn't a direct consciousness. It is worthless and obstructs an open look into one's nature. If you want to know who you are, tackle the matter head on by questioning the subject.

That, too. Of course, you need to start somewhere and also need room for massive practice and experimentation, yet what produces the desired results in the end is the "effective" part.

Not only action but effective action. that is in accord with the purpose of the undertaking.

Jeez. And you call J. Krishnamurti fake. The power of beautiful rhetoric to mislead people. You guys sure love to make stuff up. What about contemplating for some time?

Have had a couple of glimpses. Because all of those are relative. It is something that exists in relation to something else. Again, if we take the dream analogy, what is done within the dream is made of the dream. You can jump, scream and read but these are done within it; waking up is a sudden act and is not mediated by anything that preceded it, like dream events. There is no thing within the dream that is not part of it, so to speak. It is not a process either. Yet, it seems that without a serious intention to wake up, awakening is very unlikely to occur for you. Hence, we do things within the dream, such as focusing on what waking up is about. Then, at some point, as if by magic, a breakthrough might occur.

This falls short.

Are action and identity mutually inclusive? Do animals need an identity in order to act? What is action and what are its components? Can you do something free from identity?

Not who you are as your nature if actions nor experience can't change or influence that. Additionally, there is a trap of superficially adopting a persona and desired characteristics based on ideals of what it means to be awake. So-called spiritual individuals may attempt this so that they can be perceived as enlightened. This would be a pretension or a lie. The point is to come from an insight or consciousness that is genuine for you.

I was pointing out the "inadequacy" of any relative element in order to "reach" the absolute. If awakening is not a function of neither memory nor experience, then what are we talking about when what remains after a trip is a memory of a dramatic state change? This is what gets conflated by psyche users. I'd wish there was a pill to enlightenment. If you frame awakening as something relative, that's another thing, such as becoming aware or producing insights, but isn't a direct consciousness. After the experience, what are you conscious of now that you weren't of before?

Nothing you can do can produce it since the absolute isn't a process nor relative. It's a matter of directly grasping your nature as it is now. Paradoxically, focusing, questioning, paying attention to how you hold yourself—aka contemplation—help focus the mind, until a breakthrough suddenly arises on its own. Meditation can assist in various relative things such as controlling your mind, healing, relaxing, etc. It's a bit like asking: What can I do within a dream in order to wake up from it? Everywhere you look is part of the dream, and waking up from it is its own sudden "act" with no discernible factors behind it, unless your mind makes them up, but they wouldn't be true either. So, self-inquiry is recommended. Even though no practice can produce it, without the practice, intention, and work, enlightenment won't fall on your ass.

I think we're done with this thread. Question has been answered.

Purpose: the reason why you undertake an action or course of action. Let's add a couple of related terms: goal; and strategy A goal isn't the purpose, but a form to realize it. The strategy is the specific plan you make to achieve your goals. Depending on the purpose, it could be fulfilled throughout the endeavour, not just achieved as the end result.

I'd press you on that by asking what you hold awakening to be. What remains after the experience is likely just a memory of a state change, whether dramatic, healing, loving or relaxing is secondary. Rarely is it a genuine direct consciousness of the nature of something. A powerful state change may often be conflated with enlightenment.

Ok then.

You could also get over this neurotic need of yours of posting and removing your posts later.