UnbornTao

If a name is given, people cling to it and miss the reality. If no name is given, we remain unaware of its existence. This is a principle. Faith, adopting ideas as true. In essence, your intention is to fit what by nature is "unknowable" and formless into a thing that can be intellectually grasped, which we could then share and discuss about. Hence why I brought up that point. It is not that realization can't be exhaustively described, it is that the desire to do so is problematic and might be based on false presumptions--such as that there is something that is there to be handed over to others through language. If you study Rinzai and Ramana, you might get a better sense of why this matter is unassailable (unapproachable?) In any case, we like to chat, and some value may be gained from that--yet a kensho is a kensho, talk is talk. This forum isn't exclusively about "awakening talk". But in the end all talk about the absolute is chatter, not a recognition of the thing itself.

Call it the truth, you, one's nature, real self, existence, absolute, not a highly abstract, vague philosophical notion--or banana. Bring it down from the land of airy fairy concepts to your present experience. In what ways do you consider it to be useful? Curious. To be clear, there might be some value to talking from an "experience" of it--probably the most valuable being pointing to its possibility. Talking is symbolically representing (which gives rise to misrepresenting) things, it is not the same as saying what they are (we might not know that)--you are referring to the process of identifying (naming) things.

Yes, that applies to many things. However let me add: That runs the risk of turning into a religion. Some things are unknowable but still true--there's no way around this obstacle, except "consciousness". Imagine hearing: "form is emptiness, emptiness is form", or claims of that nature. What do you make out of that? What can be made out of that? The effort to systematize absolute matters is doomed to fail, and with time it tends to degrade into a form of religion.

Which is to say, in this analogy, that Rome stands for relative, and Greece for absolute. But I don't want to get ahead of myself or speculate.

Me pica el pie.

Rinzai is one of the good ones, yet the "answers" aren't to be found within explanations and notions, not even within the mind or experience. This is why someone like Rinzai talked the way he did. Becoming conscious of absolute existence—of you—is a clear definition of “enlightenment.” When stripped of fantasy, terms like kensho and satori might provide useful direction in order to open the mind. But these definitions don’t say much on their own. No amount of talk will change our condition on this matter. Better than reading, is working to generate insights for oneself. Thanks for the feedback, though.

It actually isn't. I was challenging the self-conviction we often build up with our "knowledge" of the absolute, which is just a form of ignorance. Breakthrough is what solves this problem. We unquestioningly adopt hearsay as if it were a personal experience. "The tea is hot; everyone else says so. Surely, the authorities on the subject must be right." And yet, we make this claim without ever truly tasting the tea ourselves, perhaps a sip here and there. Suffering must be tackled on its own, as it is a result of activities and of your mind. Measurement requires something there to be measured. To put it poetically, nothing cannot be measured in any way, or even "approached." That above is one type of conflating I’m pointing to. The way you cook omelets (self and life) will generally stay much the same—unless it is a profound shift, which is uncommon. What awakening does is reveal what is already the case. Much work has to occur on your part for healing, transformation, mastery, to happen, which aren't "provided" by a couple of kenshos. It sounds like what you are describing is self-transformation. To be clear, I'm not talking about an ideal state, or complete enlightenment--I'm talking about you, right there, grasping your nature. The experience of this is different from what we imagine about it.

No, and in my view you are not being sufficiently self-honest. To be clear, my gripe isn’t with any particular set of teachings. It’s also fine if you want to think that about yourself. I wanted to distinguish belief from experience, as they are easily conflated. Understanding this difference isn't as simple as just hearing about it, and there are degrees to it. Coming from genuine experiential insight is completely different than the impressions the individual makes on us. It's about being straightforward with oneself and one's experience and level of understanding.

There might be some arrogance disguised as humility in there. It's easy to think of oneself as more advanced than one actually is, even tempting. I'd say we tend to generally overestimate our own level of understanding in this work. Logically piecing things together is often conflated with experiential confrontation and insight, especially in relation to existential subjects.

There are roads to Greece too

How about: growth is one thing, awakening another.

If we're talking awakening, that is about Consciousness rather that growth.

None of that is true, it is getting your nature as it is. And you're taking about something else. People like Nisargadatta and Chogyam Trungpa had addictions and neuroses, they didn't master their mind. Some enlightened warrior throughout history likely killed people. Jesus apparently had anger management issues. Realizing your nature isn't mutually inclusive of healing, transformation or mind mastery, but it can facilitate those pursuits, I've heard.

Not sure that's true; could be. In terms of individuals, most of them die without having questioned themselves much, or before achieving any breakthrough.

You'd have to clarify what you mean by that. For most people, they just die without having had insight into their natures, much less a "full-blown" awakening. That is not what humanity is up to as a whole. I try my best not to talk in terms of hearsay or cosmologies, so no reincarnation; we don't even know what our actual present body is, its nature, much less one that we're presumably going to incarnate into in next lives. This notion exists because you've heard of it elsewhere and adopted it as true.

But that's more "this and that", not enlightenment. Maybe freedom from unwanted behavior patterns is facilitated as a result, but what you are talking about is a different pursuit, better called healing, growth, or mind mastery. Beyond plausible or intelligent chatter, the truth of the matter is that most of us are ignorant of this nature. So, that's useful to acknowledge. Certainly there haven't been many profoundly conscious individuals throughout history, which serves as a reference to keep us humble and balanced in our self-assessment. We seem to want to proclaim enlightenment too quickly with every unusual perception or experience, even if positive and seemingly transcendental.

That's a fantasy. The natural destination of life isn't enlightenment. Unless you mean it in another sense, perhaps poetically.

Drinking bleach cures Trumpism.

Okay

Don't despair, we have churros.

Of course. Tends to be the norm, or so it seems. Maybe by its nature, it is uncommon for people to get, as it isn't found anywhere. And people may describe lots of this and that. Might have been.

@Hardkill Please edit your post with the excessive use of caps if you don't mind, and don't promote more highly dysfunctional behavior.

A couple glimpses here and there. But don't use that to believe what I said. I wouldn't eagerly take someone's word for it, though. Profound consciousness is rare. And it seems lots of people conflate it with something that is there--in other words, something relative. In any case, breakthroughs are available to everyone, so some might be authentic--you just have to tell the truth about what you went through.

Okay. Maybe look into Zen with fresh eyes, particularly Rinzai and Dogen. This is just inspiration or a direction to explore. Get a sense of yourself and question what that experience is. Get it now. That's the gist of the practice. The "what" can be questioned after getting who you are.

No más Donald