UnbornTao

I’m not sure whether it is possible to stop it altogether. It can likely be reduced a great deal, such as when you’re relaxed and highly focused, but this is always temporary. This seems to be a non-random dynamic. Try to stop thinking for a minute. Then again, thinking mostly shows up for us as the internal dialogue. Meditation would yield positive results, depending on how often and intensely it is done.

Sounds good. I'd do it and see what happens. If you'd like, set a clear intent to experience who you are. Perhaps start with 3 days to get a sense of what the practice is like. Maybe add some variety like stretching exercises and walking and cooking meditation in order to break the long periods of stillness with some movement. Good luck.

In any case, learning a new language helps you create a contrast to help you see that how your culture thinks isn't set in stone. It can bring new ways of thinking and provide new words that describe experiences that may be inaccessible on your native language. So learning a new one is generally positive.

Pizza God.

That one. I was referring to how we consider the distinction of "social" as a reality that is occurring, but is not. A body as an object exists, but there is no such thing as "marriage." A social setting is a good way for the individual to hide behind that act and offload responsibility on that presumed reality. We could begin to think that that means something or is special when referring to enlightenment, and that it is a "collective" effort. Not literally. Is stretching your body a different action before becoming a Yogi than after? What changes? You can do anything free from the wishful thinking attached to any set of belief. Why do you need a system to validate it or give it meaning or a narrative? It just wouldn't lend itself to fantasizing. If you can do something without added pretension, then no need for it. The problem is getting stuck into these fictions and not recognizing them as such. You can see how many Buddhists relate to activities from within a "Buddhist" worldview, with particular expectations that filter their interpretations. And most just believe in it. And this is the trap I'm pointing out. You already subscribe to a few good-sounding cosmologies. Others could be made that are as convincing. I don't often talk in those abstract terms. I used it as an umbrella term to make a point. As I alluded to throughout the interchange, spiritual can mean almost anything, like reciting ancient scriptures, performing rituals, attending a concert. It depends on your goals. My focus is on real experiential confrontation and becoming conscious. This demands honest observation. As any cult member would attempt to justify. When looked closely, besides having a good time, releasing tension, moving their bodies, etc., they're operating from within a certain kind of BS, thinking that something else is occurring that isn't. Again, nothing against dancing and having fun. Thinking that dancing itself will increase your consciousness is wanting something to be true that isn't. This pretension is what "spiritual" pursuits usually end up degrading into. The work itself is already challenging enough without having to fabricate more nonsense. Contemplate why the need to fantasize.

Post-truth?

It was more about others reading the interchange. It's an analogy. You can point to a tree but not a forest. Similarly to how you can point to a body but not to "marriage" or "fight." Anyway, this was beside the point. Washing the dishes could also be called a spiritual practice. It wouldn't be socially validated as much as fun activities would. Without attaching a spiritual narrative around it, the action, event or activity would be what it is. The action can be disdained, enjoyed or used as a way to contemplate, without placing more conceptual baggage on top or concocting a story about what the act means. But people don't seem to consider that a serious possibility. How come there's no spiritual doctrine based around the transcendence of washing the dishes? I'd say because, among other things, this would be silly to do and easy to recognize as wishful thinking. Besides, it's a mundane activity. It's better to use a "spirituality" pretext in order to justify activities that we already want to engage in so that we can give them a special meaning. "Feelings of devotion towards the sacred" is not a phrase I'd ever use. You can meditate, focus, question, go through all kinds of experiences and states, face a wall, study, write, dialogue, facilitate, take psychedelics, and do anything you want. It'd be useful to first clarify what we're doing and why, check on our expectations, and call it by its name. What are pretension and sincerity? What is an ideal?

My pleasure. Nothing like destroying your fantasies.

This is a bit like saying: Why learn to ride a bike if I'm going to fall? Falling is just a minor aspect of riding a bike, especially once you learn to ride it. Just so with life. Acknowledge positive aspects of life such as growth, creativity, intimacy, learning.

- Ramana Maharshi

There was a guy in New York who set himself on fire fairly recently. He was not a Vietnamese Theravada monk, and this goes to show the role that fantasy plays in spiritual circles. Was that Nirvikalpa? Granted, he might have had insight into the nature of pain, although this would still be relative. It'd be recognizing the distinction/experience "pain" as a conceptual activity that is itself generated by you. Thinking of it as the result of a process is problematic, which you keep bringing up. You hold it as some sort of fantastical state. I meant stopping your brain waves, reading minds, levitating, etc. Whatever trip, state or experience you go through can't produce enlightenment and isn't necessary. This would concede that what's true of you now is missing something and that it has to be "managed" by first achieving "this or that." This goes to show that standing on one's consciousness on the matter is harder than continuously referencing adopted hearsay. Ananda, you're looking elsewhere.

@Water by the River No matter what state or experience you're in, however powerful or healing, that isn't enlightenment. This is like siddhis. Nice tricks but ultimately distractions. It is not a perception either. What you're referring to is a function of mind. It belongs to the domain of mind control.

It's entertaining mental masturbation. Of course people like him. You'd be better off with someone doing real work like Adyashanti.

What are you giving life to?

Alan Watts was another charlatan. A bit out of the blue, but paying attention to what he's doing makes it clear.

It's not a perspective, but you know that, and I'm not. This is basically the reality of interaction: you can work on a tree as it is a grounded reality, physical and "occurring", while "the forest" is entirely a convenient fiction. Because they're singing and dancing. I also suspect there's a fair amount of fantasy going on there. Hence the culty vibes. This is why I dislike using terms such as spiritual. It can mean anything. If you hold it as getting in touch with your body, letting yourself go in social contexts, etc, then sing away. But at that point why call it spiritual and think it special? You could achieve the same result by going for a run or by playing video games. This is like doing hatha yoga and thinking you're getting nearer to your higher self or some such, when all you're doing is stretching your body. Just call it what it is.

Two approaches to facilitating others: Moving them into a new experience: This tends to be resisted, as it involves taking their current experience "away" in favor of a new one Pushing them into their experience as it is: This requires guiding them through the process of personal discovery, enabling them to generate an experience that more closely aligns with the one you'd like them to have, hopefully in the direction of honesty and transformation

If it's meaningless, and then again, we don't know that, you can create meaning. If it's meaningless, why the negative disposition? Isn't a negative attitude towards that still operating from meaning? Of course, negative is still meaningful. Perhaps you're misunderstanding what this is about, and you are in fact free to create any meaning that you want for your life consciously. Make it empowering and healthy, and set out goals for yourself to move towards. It could be mastering a skill, becoming enlightened, becoming a professional athlete, or whatever. The point is that the purpose pushes you to new experiences and learning opportunities, and that it "embiggens" you (shows up on The Simpsons). Also: What is meaning? Something to contemplate.

I'm asking what they're doing and why. Increasing consciousness isn't limited to the absolute. Social itself doesn't exist, so working on the individual is the thing to do. In any case, pretending that rituals such as this one will somehow lead to a "spiritual" result is misleading, which is what I'm pointing out. But then again, you can use "spiritual" as an umbrella term for any kind of state or experience, specially if it is unusual. Not everything is facing a wall. Nothing against having fun, as long as it's called that. They're singing and dancing.

You win. Cheetos pizza.

I guess the next conversation could turn into: what is language?

I'd say that that would be something else, not consciousness.

It's easy to hide behind the genetics part and underestimate what you can accomplish with commitment.