UnbornTao

This is a basic misunderstanding of the argument being made. As a reminder, what's being said is that drugs can't and don't increase consciousness nor lead to the truth. As for healing potential, improving one's life, and similar matters - that's another story. One's everyday experience is no more "true" than an altered mind state. Hmm, don't read this the wrong way. This is mostly so others don't do stupid things and mentally make up something weird. The assertion being made is this: an experience is an experience. When everything we have of reality is experience, what is enlightenment then? I don't know what the point of this is anymore. Hopefully it creates some space for people. From there, after abandoning these beliefs, we can look into the matter with fresh eyes and more openness.

Let's give it another shot, then. Yes. Never said otherwise. I said that everything you're aware of is your experience. That's why it was said that "it's not IT." Whether you're drunk, bored, or blissed out, this is still an experience and is not the same as enlightenment. Let's create some space around the notion of enlightenment. Without this space, this conflation will continue to be made unknowingly. It's the other way around. We can say that experience precedes concept, although experience can be heavily influenced by concept. It's not a bias against it, it's calling it what it is. I enjoyed the trips. But they're not true. Taking a bunch of substances and pretending this is the same as seeking the truth is what bothers me.

Sorry, I realized I fell into this discussion again. I should have learned by now.

Go over my past responses. Again, this has already been said. But it's clear there's no real willingness to hear it, so don't pretend there is. One also derives their own beliefs and delusions. This excuse is really insubstantial when the realness of the subject being derived is what's in question. It is neither bulletproof nor what you think it is in this context. If it's real and genuine, then that could be called a solid realization. For what it's worth, I too derived my "awakenings" from my breakthrough trips, and later found - after some serious reflection and honesty - that they were experiences, and that that's what the drugs do. But to do this you have to confront the reality of the situation, and face discouragement and whatever else comes up when a fantasy is given up. You have to leave space for enlightenment to be something other than an experience or state shift. I derived from myself that drugs alter your state, by the way. To recognize that, you have to set wishful thinking aside.

Jesus, what a waste of time. Whatever is said here that contradicts the shared fantasy will be ignored.

If you guys won't listen to Adi Da or Ralston, I see no reason why you'd listen to me. It's already been laid out multiple times, and yet people here continue to ignore it. I already said that experience is everything you're aware of, and this is the core point. I wouldn't presume that the distinction of "consciousness" used by these guys is at all the same as how it's used by the rest of us - especially by believers in the psychedelic path. It's not an experience, nor cognition. But again, the unwillingness to hear this point is being proven time and time again. At best, it is framed as a "point of view" to appear charitable. It would be wise to listen, Leo included. But I've given up on this point.

Sure.

🤷‍♂️

Why not? And sometimes emotions show themselves, so to speak. In that sense, you're already communicating your emotions to the other person even before any word is uttered.

That is a good question. What is mind?

@Sincerity Go over this thread again:

Godspeed.

What fantasy of yours didn't like being challenged by what I said? Again, if one actually pays close attention, it becomes clear that the game in spirituality is pretension - social or otherwise. But I don't want to keep wasting time, so sure, it's my belief system.

Right. Or pay closer attention.

Ah, got it.

Why do you seek out distraction and entertainment?

This is going to be like reading the Tao Te Ching for people.

Claiming or thinking oneself to be awakened is different from being awakened, or having had awakenings. I suspect lots of people do the former. I'd agree with the assumption that, in this context, virtually no one knows what they're talking about, certainly not at a deep level. It's very easy to conflate some sort of experience with awakening. (Hello).

Stop it with the IQ and race argument.

Your questions were partly answered by my response above. Experience is everything you're aware of. Drugs provide you with an experience, shifting your state of mind. While high, you go through perceptual phenomena, subjective states and such, and you always inevitably come down. What remains is usually a story or memory of what you think happened while on the substance. Having to recall a past experience might already be pointing at the nature of this disparity. I don't know about you but I find that our ability to recollect is nothing short of unreliable and biased. Besides, it's a conceptual activity. If you believe that drugs increase consciousness, you're most likely referring to cognition. Notice how they're taken in the hope of getting enlightened - as a pill that will bring awakening to you - much like drinking coffee in order to experience the effects it has on you. You weren't awakened prior to taking them. This lack of prior contrast as to what is meant by "enlightened" is crucial here. Without it, the stage is set for mischief under those circumstances - which is what I did with my psychedelic experiences, and what many here seem to be up to.

@ExploringReality Kick some ass.

You can start with your name or variations of it and change it down the road whenever you feel a rebrand is fitting. The important thing is starting and setting the pieces in motion. Provide value, let others find your work, have fun and learn. You can also use Claude for brainstorming but no need to get hung up on the name part. This can be done now, with the vision created or refined along the way. Just jot some key points down about what you want to do with the project and what you hope it will help others with, and put it into action.

When someone like Ramana talks about consciousness and such, they're referring to something different from a trip, state, or experience. The likelihood that Leo is labeling an experience or state change as 'consciousness,' 'infinity,' 'awakening,' and similar terms is high. The difference in stance on drugs between him and some of these guys may point to this fundamental misstep - hence the resulting nonsense about absolute mice, aliens, and so on. I remember believing in this and calling my breakthrough trips "Awakening" this and "Awakening" that. But then I got over it - after a few years. They are simply experiences, however novel, powerful, healing, awe-inspiring, loving, "enlightening", or terrifying they may be. I also understand the self-aggrandizement aspect of it. This is why it's said that this path is potentially (or virtually guaranteed to be) deluding. You would be barking up the wrong tree, but unfortunately, dogs get easily distracted by fireworks. Be honest and move on - this is my suggestion.

That's fair. To be clear, it's unnecessary and can serve as a distraction. It's also rather superficial. You can instead examine the truth of things like: What is curiosity? What is stillness?

You don't have the genetics, the epistemic background, or the right attitude required for that Awakening™️. No one here has that Awakening - except Me.