UnbornTao

The dead horse is 'listening'. Because it seems to me that you're burying your head in the sand on this topic.

I'm not sure what you mean. To be clear, I've already surpassed the reverential phase. It might take some time, though. If you want another cult for a change, listen to Adi Da. These guys are brought up for a reason. You already believe Leo, so at least give them a chance.

Too much to unpack here.

Are you being sarcastic or not? I'm not saying this is necessarily untrue, just asking.

Come on. I also understand the self-aggrandizement aspect of the drugs.

Something about the trap of the psychedelic path.

I've noticed Leo has built up a good repertoire of excuses to avoid listening to this point in any way he can. Oh well.

If it is perceived, thought, imagined, felt, sensed, intuited, or conceived - in other words, invented - then that is the truth of it. If it's a chemical transformation of the body-mind, then that's what that is. To start with, you call things by their name as best as you can. If you begin to make headway in differentiating between experience and something that isn't - or that perhaps transcends experience (even if just as a notion) - or in seeing that experience is relative, then you'll start to get the gist of it. A grandiose experience of feeling one with the universe is still an experience. Experience is also your whole life - again, everything you're aware of. And notice that it would be equally easy for me to talk like that, given the drug experiences and the videos watched from Leo. But I don't. Something to consider. Once again, it's already being said. If you're as open as you like to think you are, go back and really listen. I'm not undermining the possible benefits one might get from the drugs; I'm just pointing out the fantasy involved. Good luck.

Let me look up that word. edit: checks out.

Isn't masturbation the ontological act of having sex with God? There, another Awakening.

This is a basic misunderstanding of the argument being made. As a reminder, what's being said is that drugs can't and don't increase consciousness nor lead to the truth. As for healing potential, improving one's life, and similar matters - that's another story. One's everyday experience is no more "true" than an altered mind state. Hmm, don't read this the wrong way. This is mostly so others don't do stupid things and mentally make up something weird. The assertion being made is this: an experience is an experience. When everything we have of reality is experience, what is enlightenment then? I don't know what the point of this is anymore. Hopefully it creates some space for people. From there, after abandoning these beliefs, we can look into the matter with fresh eyes and more openness.

Let's give it another shot, then. Yes. Never said otherwise. I said that everything you're aware of is your experience. That's why it was said that "it's not IT." Whether you're drunk, bored, or blissed out, this is still an experience and is not the same as enlightenment. Let's create some space around the notion of enlightenment. Without this space, this conflation will continue to be made unknowingly. It's the other way around. We can say that experience precedes concept, although experience can be heavily influenced by concept. It's not a bias against it, it's calling it what it is. I enjoyed the trips. But they're not true. Taking a bunch of substances and pretending this is the same as seeking the truth is what bothers me.

Sorry, I realized I fell into this discussion again. I should have learned by now.

Go over my past responses. Again, this has already been said. But it's clear there's no real willingness to hear it, so don't pretend there is. One also derives their own beliefs and delusions. This excuse is really insubstantial when the realness of the subject being derived is what's in question. It is neither bulletproof nor what you think it is in this context. If it's real and genuine, then that could be called a solid realization. For what it's worth, I too derived my "awakenings" from my breakthrough trips, and later found - after some serious reflection and honesty - that they were experiences, and that that's what the drugs do. But to do this you have to confront the reality of the situation, and face discouragement and whatever else comes up when a fantasy is given up. You have to leave space for enlightenment to be something other than an experience or state shift. I derived from myself that drugs alter your state, by the way. To recognize that, you have to set wishful thinking aside.

Jesus, what a waste of time. Whatever is said here that contradicts the shared fantasy will be ignored.

If you guys won't listen to Adi Da or Ralston, I see no reason why you'd listen to me. It's already been laid out multiple times, and yet people here continue to ignore it. I already said that experience is everything you're aware of, and this is the core point. I wouldn't presume that the distinction of "consciousness" used by these guys is at all the same as how it's used by the rest of us - especially by believers in the psychedelic path. It's not an experience, nor cognition. But again, the unwillingness to hear this point is being proven time and time again. At best, it is framed as a "point of view" to appear charitable. It would be wise to listen, Leo included. But I've given up on this point.

Sure.

🤷‍♂️

Why not? And sometimes emotions show themselves, so to speak. In that sense, you're already communicating your emotions to the other person even before any word is uttered.

That is a good question. What is mind?

@Sincerity Go over this thread again:

Godspeed.

What fantasy of yours didn't like being challenged by what I said? Again, if one actually pays close attention, it becomes clear that the game in spirituality is pretension - social or otherwise. But I don't want to keep wasting time, so sure, it's my belief system.

Right. Or pay closer attention.