UnbornTao

I was being cute. Not sure what he meant by flavor of enlightenment – perhaps something like the expression or personality behind it.

Does water have a flavor?

Jagadish Vasudev not enlightened.

It is useful not to engage in fantasies regarding this idea and to dispel the ones we might have.

But what is a self? You've got a point.

Great, don't believe it or anything else for that matter (unless you deem it positive in certain ways), especially systems that are aimed at explicating what the universe and existence are. That would ultimately just interfere with an open personal investigation. These theories are doomed to be misunderstood. Even intellectually grasping them is not the point. The requirement is realizing what is the case for yourself. And this occurs independent of opinion and conjecture, even beyond the capacity of the mind. The main problem is that we do not know what we are—our nature. From this may come the impulse to engage in fun extrapolations that don't actually increase our consciousness. For example, you assume (live as) to be your self. Is that true? That's a good place to start.

Not only when it is unwanted but when it is actively resisted and put up with. Notice that pain (or anything unwanted for that matter) can be allowed to be present and felt, for instance for the purpose of contemplation. But I digress. I was wondering why these activities would relate to a direct consciousness, in the sense that they are separate events, so to speak. It'd be like freaking out at having discovered that you have five fingers in each hand. The discovery is one thing, your reaction is another (and this is what can be changed). Granted, if what he's going through is a dramatic state, whether "belief-induced" or not, then it is difficult to make this connection between what he is doing (believing) and his resulting experience. He might have convinced himself of rumors and is clearly relating negatively towards that newly-adopted "world-perspective." That said, I'd be honest and let go of thosev ideas, whatever their content, they can't ever be true. That would provide a more solid footing from which to investigate this condition. Not sure, although it is a potent drug. Then again, a dramatic state shift and kensho are different. As you say, it is a sense, a feeling, an experience –– one that is radically open and potentially blissful and freeing, but relative nevertheless. It is the "feeling one with the universe" state. And you are you regardless of state That sounds fascinating and is all relative. If it turns out to be something different from awakening, it is best to acknowledge that so that it is dealt with on its own. Is awakening any of those things, though? Would it be possible to resist a real direct apprehension of the absolute? Again, it is already true. Actions can be investigated separately and belong to the domain of mental activity. If it is a direct experience, I'd say relax and allow whatever it is you think you are resisting to be. Get grounded on your body, then try to clarify what you became conscious of, as soberly as possible. Keep going in that direction since it is likely that the insight will degrade into a memory and its "reality" will again be missed in favor of an intellectual conclusion or some other graspable form. If it is something else, breathe; it is perfectly fine. In both cases, tackle the matter openly again.

The perfect koan.

Using fire to extinguish fire. I guess direct experience is the method.

Okay.

Something weird which you'll have to ask Leo about.

- student: master, pacify my mind - master: find it first - student: can't find it - master: there, I pacified it for you –– This might be pointing towards the fact that there already is no such thing as mind except as a prevalent historical construct, and we overlook those steps (that it had to be invented and then adopted as a distinction in one's experience). We often hold the mind to be the activity of conceptualizing and the contents of thought, or the "place" where these take place. We also tend to conflate it with internal dialogue and imaging. But where is it? And what is it?

Then I'd frame the discussion that way.

Focus on action and the "success" part. You keep talking about books which by itself won't make anything happen.

Let's not call them that. A breakdown is not a breakthrough. When you understand your nature, you grasp it as it is, revealing what is already true and has always been. What does acceptance have to do with this? And why would a kensho elicit fear and pain? In fact, it tends to elicit laugher and joy. This suggests that what he's experiencing might be something entirely different, like a state coupled with a fair amount of unnecessary mental activity that is leading to suffering. This is secondary to the (presumed) breakthrough and can be changed by becoming aware of what you are doing, and then by stopping that unwanted activity. Being ruthlessly honest with oneself helps. If there is no separation, why isn't love (or freedom and bliss) your experience? Why does it result in a negative outcome? If it is a direct experience, then I'd say you haven't gone far enough. Keep looking afresh at the matter, standing on the most immediate and present sense of yourself. Then, contemplate. The key is listening for a direct consciousness; the description is rather inconsequential. Speaking in "spiritual" and "enlightened" terms is not the same as knowing one's nature. There's a difference, which can be tricky to discern, but sometimes things have a certain scent.

That seems to be the case.

What is it you are going through? From the overall negative connotations of your post, that doesn't sound like enlightenment at all. You might be using beliefs to create negative states, and likely misunderstand solipsism too. States can get precipitated this way; it is a self-reinforcing cycle. It is useful not to encourage fantasies, whether positive or negative. A breakdown isn't direct consciousness. Consider that may not be enlightenment. It is your mind taking hearsay on faith and misunderstanding the situation. If a direct experience of some sort has happened, it sounds like your mind is doing unnecessary things with it. Clarity and freedom are usually side-effects, so that's another hint we might be talking about something other than an "experience" of one's nature. The good news is that whatever is true has always been the case and is true now. So cheer up, breathe, and enjoy your experience. If you want, keep contemplating who and you genuinely are, and go after a direct consciousness, not concepts, convictions, experiences or states, just what's true as itself.

Maybe looking into the broader subject of attachment itself would be a good first step.

Dune and Foundation both contain elements of spirituality within them. Jonathan Livingston Seagull is another one I like a lot.

A short punchy offensive attack. Nevermind, it was a joke.

You are creating those, yes.

"Not on my watch!!"

Stay on topic. Heard Shadow Dance is a good book for that.

We could check whether anxiety can occur whenever one is willing to be completely engaged in the present. Is that true? You sound like you can effectively create depression, apathy, etc. Because of course you can. Fear and love are other emotions which you are also doing, among many others. You somehow overlook or become insensitive to this fact. So if you want, try something different now (boredom, happiness, envy, love, curiosity). This requires becoming aware of what you are "doing" by thinking what you are thinking, and changing that. Desire to close your fist (or pick up a book, do a pushup, whatever), then do it. Did it work? Could you create desire? You did!

Why would he say that (in the context of contemplation and enlightenment)?