UnbornTao

Obsidian, definitely.

@Sincerity Who here has seriously taken up both stances? Most of you believe Leo, and the hope of a pill to awakening is all too enticing to neglect or seriously question, despite what is said by people who know what they're talking about (I know you have your excuses not to listen to them, but come on). I've done the drugs, too. But I no longer do the "fantasy" involved here, which I used to believe in. Again, I also confidently believed in it and conjured up stories about my "awakenings." Not anymore. I could've convinced people and talked in such a way so that I'd have come across as awakened. You only need to make that impression on people by coming across a certain way. And gullible people would confuse the assertiveness for the reality - or lack thereof - of it as long as it affirmed their own dispositions and images. And you'd have believed me - you'd have loved it, in fact. You'd have felt warm and cozy and validated in your worldview, part of a community reaching out for "the truth." Whatever is true and the case at any level, it starts by calling things by their name. What exists? What is taking place? What is factual? What is memory? These are questions that point at the pursuit of the truth. What are lying and misrepresentation? What are fantasy and wishful thinking? What is a cult? What is anything? This contrasts with what we think or feel about these matters. I'm pointing out this gap or disparity because it seems people here tend to ignore it. But it's too big of a gap, I've recently come to understand. You've already noticed my reluctance to provide a simplistic view of the world for the mind to piece these things together and so have the feeling of understanding. But yes, I'm not enlightened now. It's a possibility of directly grasping one's nature, and I base it on my past realizations. Right now it could be said that it is a conceptual placeholder. It's not an experience. Why do you think I keep repeating this? Because it's still overlooked and goes over one's head. Direct consciousness isn't a function of the brain. Without the fantasy, no one here is either really, from what I can tell. Maybe Leo might have had a few enlightenments, but I don't know. He likes to think of himself as more awake than what comes across to me. I know this is a weird thing to say and that most will probably not get where I'm coming from or why I'm saying that to begin with, especially given that the only things they have for making that assessment are the words, behavior, and expression of someone (to which their reactions are ones of liking and feeling good, which doesn't help). If you ask, I'll respond with 'magic', 'intuition', or just paying attention. Bringing this up here is a waste of time. Thanks for warning me @kieranperez. I probably should go the same route as you.

The dead horse is 'listening'. Because it seems to me that you're burying your head in the sand on this topic.

I'm not sure what you mean. To be clear, I've already surpassed the reverential phase. It might take some time, though. If you want another cult for a change, listen to Adi Da. These guys are brought up for a reason. You already believe Leo, so at least give them a chance.

Could be. Try to look deeper. How come one would doubt one's very existence to the point that this expression would even need to exist? Why would you need to believe in yourself in the first place if you presumably are yourself?

The purpose of this journal is to share questions, humor, miscellaneous creative content, and raw reflections on personal empowerment and consciousness. My goals are to deepen my experiential understanding of these topics, improve my communication skills, have fun, and help others see things in a new light.

Too much to unpack here.

Are you being sarcastic or not? I'm not saying this is necessarily untrue, just asking.

Come on. I also understand the self-aggrandizement aspect of the drugs.

Something about the trap of the psychedelic path.

I've noticed Leo has built up a good repertoire of excuses to avoid listening to this point in any way he can. Oh well.

If it is perceived, thought, imagined, felt, sensed, intuited, or conceived - in other words, invented - then that is the truth of it. If it's a chemical transformation of the body-mind, then that's what that is. To start with, you call things by their name as best as you can. If you begin to make headway in differentiating between experience and something that isn't - or that perhaps transcends experience (even if just as a notion) - or in seeing that experience is relative, then you'll start to get the gist of it. A grandiose experience of feeling one with the universe is still an experience. Experience is also your whole life - again, everything you're aware of. And notice that it would be equally easy for me to talk like that, given the drug experiences and the videos watched from Leo. But I don't. Something to consider. Once again, it's already being said. If you're as open as you like to think you are, go back and really listen. I'm not undermining the possible benefits one might get from the drugs; I'm just pointing out the fantasy involved. Good luck.

That's why you're depressed.

A rationalwiki page. Remember this gem: how_leo_gura_argues_bingo.png

Let me look up that word. edit: checks out.

Isn't masturbation the ontological act of having sex with God? There, another Awakening.

This is a basic misunderstanding of the argument being made. As a reminder, what's being said is that drugs can't and don't increase consciousness nor lead to the truth. As for healing potential, improving one's life, and similar matters - that's another story. One's everyday experience is no more "true" than an altered mind state. Hmm, don't read this the wrong way. This is mostly so others don't do stupid things and mentally make up something weird. The assertion being made is this: an experience is an experience. When everything we have of reality is experience, what is enlightenment then? I don't know what the point of this is anymore. Hopefully it creates some space for people. From there, after abandoning these beliefs, we can look into the matter with fresh eyes and more openness.

Let's give it another shot, then. Yes. Never said otherwise. I said that everything you're aware of is your experience. That's why it was said that "it's not IT." Whether you're drunk, bored, or blissed out, this is still an experience and is not the same as enlightenment. Let's create some space around the notion of enlightenment. Without this space, this conflation will continue to be made unknowingly. It's the other way around. We can say that experience precedes concept, although experience can be heavily influenced by concept. It's not a bias against it, it's calling it what it is. I enjoyed the trips. But they're not true. Taking a bunch of substances and pretending this is the same as seeking the truth is what bothers me.

Sorry, I realized I fell into this discussion again. I should have learned by now.

Go over my past responses. Again, this has already been said. But it's clear there's no real willingness to hear it, so don't pretend there is. One also derives their own beliefs and delusions. This excuse is really insubstantial when the realness of the subject being derived is what's in question. It is neither bulletproof nor what you think it is in this context. If it's real and genuine, then that could be called a solid realization. For what it's worth, I too derived my "awakenings" from my breakthrough trips, and later found - after some serious reflection and honesty - that they were experiences, and that that's what the drugs do. But to do this you have to confront the reality of the situation, and face discouragement and whatever else comes up when a fantasy is given up. You have to leave space for enlightenment to be something other than an experience or state shift. I derived from myself that drugs alter your state, by the way. To recognize that, you have to set wishful thinking aside.

Jesus, what a waste of time. Whatever is said here that contradicts the shared fantasy will be ignored.

If you guys won't listen to Adi Da or Ralston, I see no reason why you'd listen to me. It's already been laid out multiple times, and yet people here continue to ignore it. I already said that experience is everything you're aware of, and this is the core point. I wouldn't presume that the distinction of "consciousness" used by these guys is at all the same as how it's used by the rest of us - especially by believers in the psychedelic path. It's not an experience, nor cognition. But again, the unwillingness to hear this point is being proven time and time again. At best, it is framed as a "point of view" to appear charitable. It would be wise to listen, Leo included. But I've given up on this point.

Sure.

🤷‍♂️